Lifter's Lounge

(08-11-2014 08:40 AM)Mongo Wrote:  

(08-11-2014 06:51 AM)Kieran Wrote:  The trap bar really changes the movement and brings the quads into it more, and reduces the involvement of the upper and lower back.

Actually it just changes the stimulation but the upper back is heavily involved, mainly in a stabilization role. You have to use your back muscles to maintain tension and stabilize your entire torso. If you ever do farmer's carries with a trap bar, the first two muscle groups to fatigue will be your grip and upper back, usually in that order.

Truth.

Trap Bars really nail the well...traps. That's not why they're named that, but it's easy to remember. Straight bar DL's use more of the posterior chain whereas trap bars use the quads and upper back more.

I prefer to use trap bars because it forces you to have good spinal alignment and form, reducing the risk of injury.

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Thanks for the correction Mongo. While my weight was heavier than my regular deadlift, maybe my weight was limited by my quads as I'm a poor squatter relative to my deadlift, and this caused there to be little involvement for my upper back compared to regular deads / partial deads. I just assumed that the more upright angle of the torso, compared to the regular deadlift, reduced the need for the scap retractors and lats to work to stabilise (although I suppose it's possible to still pull with more vertical tibia and angled torso even with the trap bar).

Which do you favour with your athletes?

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(08-11-2014 10:33 AM)Seth_Rose Wrote:  

(08-11-2014 08:40 AM)Mongo Wrote:  

(08-11-2014 06:51 AM)Kieran Wrote:  The trap bar really changes the movement and brings the quads into it more, and reduces the involvement of the upper and lower back.

Actually it just changes the stimulation but the upper back is heavily involved, mainly in a stabilization role. You have to use your back muscles to maintain tension and stabilize your entire torso. If you ever do farmer's carries with a trap bar, the first two muscle groups to fatigue will be your grip and upper back, usually in that order.

Truth.

Trap Bars really nail the well...traps. That's not why they're named that, but it's easy to remember. Straight bar DL's use more of the posterior chain whereas trap bars use the quads and upper back more.

I prefer to use trap bars because it forces you to have good spinal alignment and form, reducing the risk of injury.

I do agree the trap bar does have some value especially for people suffering from injuries or genetic back problems. However, to develop the necessary activation patterns to carry over to your squat and other strength movements, you'll need to develop the upper back and lower posterior chain that you get from straight bar deadlifts. I usually suggest people drop weight and focus on perfect form if they insist on using the trap bar over the straight bar. It will set them up for success in their coming years of fitness. Just my .02!

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(08-11-2014 10:33 AM)Seth_Rose Wrote:  

(08-11-2014 08:40 AM)Mongo Wrote:  

(08-11-2014 06:51 AM)Kieran Wrote:  The trap bar really changes the movement and brings the quads into it more, and reduces the involvement of the upper and lower back.

Actually it just changes the stimulation but the upper back is heavily involved, mainly in a stabilization role. You have to use your back muscles to maintain tension and stabilize your entire torso. If you ever do farmer's carries with a trap bar, the first two muscle groups to fatigue will be your grip and upper back, usually in that order.

Truth.

Trap Bars really nail the well...traps. That's not why they're named that, but it's easy to remember. Straight bar DL's use more of the posterior chain whereas trap bars use the quads and upper back more.

I prefer to use trap bars because it forces you to have good spinal alignment and form, reducing the risk of injury.

Curious to know, how much more do you guys deadlift on the trap bar?

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(08-11-2014 11:38 AM)Kieran Wrote:  Thanks for the correction Mongo. While my weight was heavier than my regular deadlift, maybe my weight was limited by my quads as I'm a poor squatter relative to my deadlift, and this caused there to be little involvement for my upper back compared to regular deads / partial deads. I just assumed that the more upright angle of the torso, compared to the regular deadlift, reduced the need for the scap retractors and lats to work to stabilise (although I suppose it's possible to still pull with more vertical tibia and angled torso even with the trap bar).

Which do you favour with your athletes?

The biomechanics of the trap bar make it more favorable to lifting heavier weight. Quad strength is a possible limiting factor, but I would wager that in fact you were limited by core and postural strength. If your back begins to round, you won't be as efficient transferring force into the ground while moving the bar.

For my athletes I am not a fan of deadlifts. The closest I'll come to any deadlift variation would be a clean pull or snatch pull. Otherwise everything that starts on the ground is an Olympic lift/variation thereof.

In my own training I'd probably do trap bar deadlifts over straight bar, simply because the mechanics of straight bar deadlifting are too similar yet still different to the Olympic lifts. I see it as an avenue to create bad habits in my Olympic lifting, which is more of a priority to me than being able to deadlift heavy.

Edit: Forgot to add this in my original and didn't want to make a double post.

(08-11-2014 12:08 PM)thedavidgt Wrote:  Curious to know, how much more do you guys deadlift on the trap bar?

Lots. The most I ever worked up to on conventional deadlift was 315x10, or about a 405 max. That was training my deadlift consistently for a couple years. Last summer on a whim I worked up to 185 kilos for a double using the low handles on a trap bar. While battling a sinus infection and not having trap bar deadlifted in 3 years. That should put some perspective on the favorable biomechanics.

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How heavy is your lift? I thought I was taking too long with 2 min.

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How long does it take you guys to recover from a hard leg day?

If I get a good leg day in (3x10 squats, leg presses, lunges, hamstring machine, and quad extensions) I need at least four days to recover and stop being sore, and on the first, second, and third day recovering I can barely walk. I'm not on steroids, obviously. For chest and triceps day it's usually 3 days rest to stop being sore.

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(08-11-2014 05:05 PM)Switch Wrote:  How long does it take you guys to recover from a hard leg day?

If I get a good leg day in (3x10 squats, leg presses, lunges, hamstring machine, and quad extensions) I need at least four days to recover and stop being sore, and on the first, second, and third day recovering I can barely walk. I'm not on steroids, obviously. For chest and triceps day it's usually 3 days rest to stop being sore.

If I've been working legs regularly 1x/wk then about a day.

If I have taken 2-3 weeks off of legs, then 3 days.

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^ I don't get seriously sore at all, but then again I'm not doing bodybuilding routines. I do either heavy squats ATG or moderate ATG pause squats and heavy deadlifts every workout, which is every other day.

I can't imagine being sore like that all the time. When I first started seriously lifting again doing 5x5 squats I could barely walk, but after 2 weeks the DOMS stopped entirely. I'm a tiny bit sore in my left calf today solely because I did a bunch of power jerks at the end of a fairly intense workout, and even that is no more than a minor annoyance.

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Any good ideas on how to add more width to the chest starting to get man boobs

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^ Well are you overweight? Are your shoulders pulled forward because your chest is overdeveloped relative to your back? It depends on what you mean by man boobs, and what the root cause of that appearance is.

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(08-11-2014 05:05 PM)Switch Wrote:  How long does it take you guys to recover from a hard leg day?

If I get a good leg day in (3x10 squats, leg presses, lunges, hamstring machine, and quad extensions) I need at least four days to recover and stop being sore, and on the first, second, and third day recovering I can barely walk. I'm not on steroids, obviously. For chest and triceps day it's usually 3 days rest to stop being sore.

That's an awful lot of leg exercises for a single session. I do heavy squats/deadlifts one day then light squats and assistance 3 days later. Occasionally I'll get sore 2 days after the second leg day but usually only after switching up my assistance exercises and it's gone by the time I'm back to day 1.

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(08-10-2014 04:01 PM)Wreckingball Wrote:  i can't do cleans or snatches properly even with empty bar

I struggled with clean as well. I still cannot claim I'm doing it properly 100%, but I'm much better at it now. This dvd helped me a lot with it. It is one thing to read about it in a book, and another to actually see it.
Good luck:

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(08-11-2014 07:40 PM)OBJ Snakebite Wrote:  

(08-10-2014 04:01 PM)Wreckingball Wrote:  i can't do cleans or snatches properly even with empty bar

I struggled with clean as well. I still cannot claim I'm doing it properly 100%, but I'm much better at it now. This dvd helped me a lot with it. It is one thing to read about it in a book, and another to actually see it.
Good luck:

Theres far too much going on in the olympic lifts to be able to watch a video and catch everything, then do it properly. Get a coach. There are stages to each lift that need to be perfected, they say that when a snatch goes up, it should be almost effortless. You will not be able to figure out how to jump, shrug, spread the feet upon landing, catch the bar in the deepest part of the squat, and where to catch the bar overhead so that you reach proper lockout without eyes on. Take it from someone thats been there. Investing the time and money is priceless for the olympic lifts.

Edit: power clean go ahead and do by yourself, because it is not nearly as technical as an olympic clean. Theres usually a minimal squat involved and mostly just muscling the weight up. That being said, start light, I've seen people fuck themselves up hard with this too.

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After 3 weeks with no lifting at all and heavy drinking, I went down and squatted 440lbs - not easy, but I got it up there.

Another 3 months of heaving lifting then I will be going for a 8-month fatloss stint. I've got a pretty good gut now.

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(08-12-2014 02:57 AM)ElJefe Wrote:  After 3 weeks with no lifting at all and heavy drinking, I went down and squatted 440lbs - not easy, but I got it up there.

Beast mode. I have never squatted that much.

I almost locked out 505 DL the other day, a little disappointed that I couldn't hit it but I was damn close.

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^Thanks - now my deadlift, that's a whole another story (and a sad one lol).

looking forward to seeing where I'm at in 3 months and 12 months.

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farmer's walks are a severely underrated exercise

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Yesterday, I murdered my shoulders with a dumbbell clean and press workout. Highly recommend this lift. It's really bringing up my barbell overhead press.

http://ditillo2.blogspot.jp/2008/08/dumb...power.html

Tried to bench today and failed a single at a weight that was easy a few days ago. After that, I just walked out the gym. My body is obviously asking for a break - just realized that I haven't taken a day off in over a week!

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Any good tips on increasing forearm size or is that genetic?

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(08-16-2014 03:21 AM)KC4 Wrote:  Any good tips on increasing forearm size or is that genetic?

My trainer tells me full grip pulling movements are what do it

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(08-16-2014 02:00 AM)dreambig Wrote:  Yesterday, I murdered my shoulders with a dumbbell clean and press workout. Highly recommend this lift. It's really bringing up my barbell overhead press.

http://ditillo2.blogspot.jp/2008/08/dumb...power.html

Tried to bench today and failed a single at a weight that was easy a few days ago. After that, I just walked out the gym. My body is obviously asking for a break - just realized that I haven't taken a day off in over a week!

I've done that before.

I've also driven to the gym many times, parked up but can't get out of the car. I just go home knowing that my body doesn't want to train.

Always listen to your body.

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Quote:I do agree the trap bar does have some value especially for people suffering from injuries or genetic back problems. However, to develop the necessary activation patterns to carry over to your squat and other strength movements, you'll need to develop the upper back and lower posterior chain that you get from straight bar deadlifts. I usually suggest people drop weight and focus on perfect form if they insist on using the trap bar over the straight bar. It will set them up for success in their coming years of fitness. Just my .02!

While I don't disagree with that statement at all, I personally am more concerned with building a big 'yoke' (i.e. traps and shoulders) than a big squat.

I used to be obsessed with squats but now focus more on the upper body and the trap bar is better for that imo.

Quote:Curious to know, how much more do you guys deadlift on the trap bar?

It depends on whether or not the trap bar has high or low handles. With high handles I can do more weight, and with low handles less weight.

Quote:farmer's walks are a severely underrated exercise

Yeah I love 'em, and going off the trap bar theme, you can use that to really nail the traps.

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(08-16-2014 02:00 AM)dreambig Wrote:  Yesterday, I murdered my shoulders with a dumbbell clean and press workout. Highly recommend this lift. It's really bringing up my barbell overhead press.

http://ditillo2.blogspot.jp/2008/08/dumb...power.html

Tried to bench today and failed a single at a weight that was easy a few days ago. After that, I just walked out the gym. My body is obviously asking for a break - just realized that I haven't taken a day off in over a week!

You should probably rest, but I don't doing a chest workout the day after an intense shoulder workout is a good idea, as the shoulders play a significant role in chest pressing movements.

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How much volume do you need to get some real lateral deltoid and bicep growth and which exercises?

I mostly do compounds, but want the bro muscles to grow now.

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