Post: #1

What do you think of the whole idea of joining the military as an act of serving your country?

There are a lot of idealists in America who do so........ but then given the low pay given to soldiers, the poor healthcare in the VA hospitals, the long deployments away from home, lack of public interest in military officers, the potential life changing injuries, the tendency of politicians to use the military to advance their own personal economic/political interests rather than national security, etc............ Is it really worth it?

Watching the movie "Born on the 4th of July" was an eye opener into all these issues. Seeing how Ron Kovic (Tom Cruise) went from a young idealistic warrior into a cynic was fascinating. Kovic was paralyzed in the Vietnam War and came to regret his service.

What are your thoughts?

Post: #2

I know a lot of british armed forces personal are very demoralised. After the British soldier Lee Rigby was decapitated in Woolwich, London, there was a feeling of the incident being swept under the carpet, especially after the local council refused to build a memorial for the man.

The military is a big organisation, there are plenty of skills to be gathered from it, and if you know what you want for it, I can see it being a big stepping stone for personal ambitions, business start ups. However the specialised fields, usually demand longer years in service that can be steep.

People I know personally with military backgrounds speak fondly of the their time, but to say they carry mental scars from it, would be an understatement. Also Loyalty, Risk, Nationalism, Reality, are all seen as outdated concepts in the West.

Post: #3

Lee Rigby was swept under the table because the UK establishment knows it'll incite people to question the mass immigration and multiculturalism
that's been forced on them by their elites.

Just like with American elites, your elites don't have your interests in mind in the UK. So would you really serve an organization run by people who you can't trust?

I respect the military, but I'm not sure if I respect our political leaders.

Post: #4

Movies and other media portrayals of the military are bullshit. Opinions from those that haven't been in are not far behind. You'd be a fool to use those as your basis.

Ask some people that have actually been in. I served for 8 years. Greatest achievement and most valuable experience in my life so far.

There are already threads available where a lot of veterans including myself broke this down, namely below. Check them first.

/thread-29908....t=Military

Post: #5

I am wondering if having "redpill beliefs" in todays climate, and into the future, will be seen as reason for Military discharge.

Are there people actively gathering information? Etc.

Post: #6

(06-27-2014 06:34 PM)Cobra Wrote:  Movies and other media portrayals of the military are bullshit. Opinions from those that haven't been in are not far behind. You'd be a fool to use those as your basis.

Ask some people that have actually been in. I served for 8 years. Greatest achievement and most valuable experience in my life so far.

There are already threads available where a lot of veterans including myself broke this down, namely below. Check them first.

/thread-29908....t=Military

Thank you for serving. I respect those that do since it is voluntary.

Post: #7

(06-27-2014 06:34 PM)Cobra Wrote:  Movies and other media portrayals of the military are bullshit. Opinions from those that haven't been in are not far behind. You'd be a fool to use those as your basis.

Ask some people that have actually been in. I served for 8 years. Greatest achievement and most valuable experience in my life so far.

There are already threads available where a lot of veterans including myself broke this down, namely below. Check them first.

/thread-29908....t=Military

Thanks. Will check out the thread.

Post: #8

I'll add this. Kovic had large expectations about the military, pretty much unrealistic and over the top given the extreme changes going on in the geopolitical climate at that time.

What I mean is the assmunchery of Vietnam politics and VA treatment that was behind that reality.

These contradicting factors no longer exist or at least the information on those factors is readily available or easy to access. Welcome to the Information Age.

In this day and age of social media there is no reason to have similar expectations.

If on top of that you are on the forum and still join for the wrong reasons, then you're a royal tool machine and not a patriot.

Post: #9

blue pill

WIA

Post: #10

(06-27-2014 06:14 PM)Fighting888 Wrote:  What do you think of the whole idea of joining the military as an act of serving your country?

There are a lot of idealists in America who do so........ but then given the low pay given to soldiers, the poor healthcare in the VA hospitals, the long deployments away from home, lack of public interest in military officers, the potential life changing injuries, the tendency of politicians to use the military to advance their own personal economic/political interests rather than national security, etc............ Is it really worth it?

What are your thoughts?

Forget any idealism you have about serving. That shit will leave you as soon as you step off the bus at reception

If you are buried in student loan debt or have little means to pay for an education, military service is a way forward. Sign the shortest contract over 3 years. You need 3 years of active duty service to receive 100% of the GI bill.

I served 5 years in the Army. However, I would recommend joining the Air Force or Navy. Don't join the Army or Marines because you think you are hard. You're not.

Ironically, now that the wars are over, it's a worse time to join. The worst, pettiest elements of the Army are coming back. When the Army was engaged in Iraq and Afghanistan a lot of the bullshit was set aside to focus on the mission. Now that there is no mission for many units, there is a lot of time to fill up with dumb shit.

Post: #11

Low pay?? The pay is not bad at all and if you arent a grunt then there are some great opportunities to be had. Even if you are a grunt there are great opportunities. Especially for a lot of the soldiers who didnt have much going for them. While Im not big on the "serving the country" bullshit, The miltary did wonders for me. I am certain I would not have built the wealth I did without the military. Nor would I have traveled the world with the military and on my own after. It put my life on a very positive track.

But remember when you complain about the pay and services they provide. It is suppose to be a sacrifice. Working for the government no longer becomes a sacrifice if the benefits outweigh the civilian life. Which they have.

Post: #12

Fuck serving your country.

You exist to serve yourself, not an abstract entity that gains with your death. Be the king of your life, not a pawn.

Post: #13

I have lots of family in the U.S. military. It only makes sense if you have a specific personal goal in life such as completing your education on the military's dime or learning some skill set in the military. It's also a great place to get your TS clearance which is beneficial for private contractors or other government work.

Just serving in general for the sake of serving is a big mistake though. You will be putting your life on the line for shady policies concocted by some fuckwit in office who doesn't give two shits about you or your family. This isn't WW2, we're in the era of enriching corporate interests with foreign policy and "domino" theory 2.0

Also, it seems like the officer route is the way to go if you absolutely want to join the military for just the career prospects.

Post: #14

Joining the military was one of the best moves I've ever made.

Before you sign anything check out my data sheet on United States Air Force lifestyle: /thread-29991.html

Post: #15

If you're really hard up for an 'only the strongest will survive' American military experience, and are in college/fresh out of college, do USMC OCS. There's no obligation afterwards, and if you're actually strong enough to resist peer pressure on your own, you won't accept the service obligation afterwards. Or you will, and then you'll be a Marine. If you actually want to join for the benefits, from best to worst do coast guard, air force, navy, army, marines, reserves and short contracts are better than AD with a long contract--you can always opt to stay in later, but you can't cut it short.

If you want to join the military 'learn to do cool shit', the vast majority of things that you can do in the military, you can do as a civilian with enough time and money. Most 'equipment operator' and 'equipment maintenance' jobs are either done by contractors, or taught by contractors as the equipment is designed and developed by contractors. There are a few things that could in theory be useful in civilian life that you can only learn in the military--landing a helicopter by counter-rotation is too hard on the airframe to be taught in civilian schools, for example; but most things you will do will be at best 'being a tiny cog in a giant machine that doesn't always run well'.

I opted to go the civilian contractor route, I learned a lot, served my country, and didn't get shot at in wars I don't agree with.

Post: #16

http://johntreed.com/military.html

This guy has the most realistic view of the military I spent of couple of days just reading his articles and I was surprised that someone could describe it so well. I spent 11 years in the Army, 3 years in the regular Army and 8 in the Army National Guard over three states TX, WV, and FL there is a lot to consider especially since it IS a political position even if you don't want it to be as it's volunteer you are basically saying you support our foreign policy. It's blue pill and depending on what you go into it's a laboratory for social experiments not cool alpha stuff as that's it's new or old function. It's also VERY blue pill.

Post: #17

Here's what Fred Reed had to say.

Quote:A friend recently asked me what I would tell a young man thinking about enlisting in the military. (He had in mind his son.) I would tell him this, which I wish someone had told me:

Kid, you are being suckered. You are being used. You need to think carefully before signing that enlistment contract.

First, notice that the men who want to send you to die were draft-dodgers. President Bush was of military age during Vietnam, but he sat out the war in the Air National Guard. The Guard was then a common way of avoiding combat. Bush could do it because he was a rich kid who went to Yale, and his family had connections.

He dodged, but he wants you to go.

Vice President Cheney, also of military age during Vietnam, also didn’t go. Why? When asked by the press, he said, “I had other priorities.” In other words, he was too important to risk his precious self overseas. He dodged, but wants you to go.

If you take the time to investigate, you will always find this pattern. The rich and influential avoid combat. Harvard, Yale, and Princeton do not send young men to Iraq. The editors at magazines that support the war, National Review for example, didn’t fight. They are happy to let you go, though. The reason for the All Volunteer military was to let the smart and rich avoid service and instead send kids from middle-class and blue-collar families. It works.

In talking to recruiters, you need to understand what you are up against. You are probably nineteen or twenty years old, full of piss and vinegar as we used to say, just starting to know the world. Which means that you don’t yet know it. (Do you know, for example, what countries border Iraq?)

You are up against a government that hires high-powered ad agencies and psychologists to figure out how to lure you into the military. Over many years they have done surveys and studies on the weaknesses of young males to find out what will get them to join. They know that young men, the ones that are worth anything anyway, want to prove themselves, want adventure, want to show what they can do. Everything a recruiter does is carefully calculated to play on this. They go to recruiting school to learn how.

“The Few. The Proud.” You don’t think that came out of the Marine Corps, do you? These phrases—“An Army of One,” “Be All You Can Be"--come from ad agencies in New York. Nobody in those ad agencies, I promise you, was ever in the Marine Corps. New York sells the military the way it sells soap. It has no interest in you at all.

Recruiters know exactly what they are doing. They are manly, which appeals to gutsy young guys who don’t want to be mall rats. They are confident. They have a physical fitness, a clean-cut appearance that looks good compared to all those wussy lawyers in business suits. They invite you to come into a man’s world. They promise you college funds. (Check and see how many actually ever get those funds. Read the small print.)

And of course the military is a man’s world, and it is an adventure, and it does beat being a mall rat—until they put you in combat. Driving a tank beats stocking parts in the local NAPA outlet—until they put you in combat. Days on the rifle range, running the bars of San Diego far from home and parents, going across the border into Mexico—all of this appeals powerfully to a young man. It did to me. It beats hell out of getting some silly associate degree in biz-admin at the community college.

Until they put you in combat. Then it’s too late. You can’t change your mind. They send you to jail for a long time if you do.

Combat is not the adventure you think it is. Know what happens when an RPG hits a tank? Nothing good. The cherry juice—hydraulic fluid that turns the turret—can vaporize and then blow. I saw the results in the Naval Support Activity hospital in Danang in 1967. A tank has a crew of four. Two burned to death, screaming as they tried to get out. The other two were scalded pink, under a plastic sheet that was always foggy with serum evaporating from burns where the skin had sloughed off. They probably lived. Know what burn scars look like?

The recruiters won’t tell you this. They know, but they won’t tell you. Ever seen a guy who just took a round through the face? He’s a bloody mess with his eyes gone, nasty hole where his nose was, funny white cartilage things sticking out of dripping meat. Suppose he’ll ever have another girlfriend? Not freaking likely. He’ll spend the next fifty years as a horror in some forsaken VA hospital.

But the recruiters won’t tell you this. They want you to think that it’s an adventure.

Other things happen that, depending on your head, may or may not bother you. Iraq means combat in cities. Ordinary people live there. You pop a grenade through a window, or hit a building with a burst from the Chain gun, or maybe put a tank round through it. Then you find the little girl with her bowels hanging out, not quite dead yet, with her mother screaming over what’s left. You’d be surprised how much blood a small kid has.

You get to live with that picture for the rest of your life. And you will live with it. The recruiter will tell you that it doesn’t happen, that it’s the exception, that I’m a commy journalist. Believe him if you want. Believe him now, while you can. When you get back, you’ll believe me.

A lot of things in America aren’t what they used to be. The military is one of them. The army didn’t always use girl soldiers to torture prisoners. For that they had specialists in the intelligence agencies. You won’t get assigned torture duty, almost certainly, because the Army got caught. Ask your recruiter about it, just to be sure.

Don’t expect thanks from a grateful nation. Somebody might buy you a drink in a bar. That’s about all you get. Many will regard you as a criminal or a fool.

Wars seem important at the time, but they usually aren’t. Five years later, they are history. About sixty thousand GIs died in Vietnam. We lost. Nothing happened. It was a stupid war for nothing. Today the guys who lost faces and legs and internal organs back then are just freaks. Nobody gives a damn about them, and nobody will give a damn about you. A war is a politician’s toy, but your wheelchair is forever. If you want adventure, try the fishing fleet in Alaska.

Think about it.

Post: #18

There are many possible downsides, but also big benefits and opportunities for travel.

I lived in Germany for a few years and it improved me a lot, I figured out how organizations worked and used that to my benefit.

Remember that the personnel specialist, aircraft engine mechanic, and Korean language cryptolinguist get the same benefits as the infantryman with a lot less risk.

Post: #19

I'm enlisting September in the Australian military. Doing an electronics trade, 6 years initial service.

Average of about 60k per year + free healthcare + gym access + accommodation and meals for 125 p/w if you live in the barracks.

Save like a beast while rewarding myself with a 3 week trip overseas each year.

Post: #20

I was active duty army for 4 years. I was infantry, saw a bunch of combat, got out on medical with a blown knee from repeatedly banging the shit out of it in Iraq. If I could go back I wouldn't change a thing, but I also recommend against enlisting in any military branch 99% of the time it comes up.

I read what Fred Reed (above) had to say about the military not long after I joined. It was probably Christmas 2005. At the time, I thought being in the military was great. I was 6 months in and clueless. I didn't believe what he wrote then, but over the years I always remembered his essay and damn if he wasn't right about pretty much everything.

The only thing I disagreed on was combat. No, it's not awesome watching someone you know get their legs blown off by an RPG, or seeing a driver half crushed under his flipped Bradley, dying as soon as the Bradley is lifted and his insides are no longer held in by the armor plate in his guts. But nothing tests a man like war. It's very difficult for me to explain, but of my time in the army my deployment was by far the best part. I don't miss combat so much anymore, but I still get the itch when I watch war movies. A funny thing is I hardly remember the actual fighting, or the men I killed and the men I saw die. I can remember them if I think about it, but the memories that flip through my mind unbidden are the good ones.

The reality of being in the military is you will be lied to constantly, and in all likelihood your entire chain of command won't give two shits about you. If you're lucky you'll have a few decent NCOs, but you can bet money the officers and upper enlisted in your unit will be dumb as fuck and not worthy of your respect. It's not a meritocracy, and you will be passed over for promotions for guys who are less capable than you, but who suck dick the best, or have the right skin color, or hell maybe they just have kids and "need the extra money".

You'll work with the best and worst people you'll ever meet.

If you're lower enlisted, you will get shit on for every tiny mistake you make, while the NCOs and officers will get free passes because the commanders don't want a stain on their unit. Heaven forbid you work with women, but if you do get ready to do your job and theirs too because as soon as a deployment rolls around most of them will fuck every half hard dick in the barracks to get pregnant and skate out of deploying.

Your medical records will be lost every six months. If you do get hurt or sick, your unit and the medical personnel will think you're a lying piece of shit trying to goldbrick. By the time they take you seriously, your injury or illness will have gotten much worse. The treatment you do get will be subpar in one area or another; if you can, get treated by civilians. Depending on how common your injury is, it might be ignored entirely. Hearing loss was no longer a recognized disability when I was getting out, for example, because every asshole in combat arms had hearing loss and the federal government can't afford all those disability payments.

If you have money problems, there's about a 10% chance you'll have helpful people the S1 shop (personnel). If you don't, well, you're fucked unless you can get someone with some rank to stop playing solitaire for a few minutes to help you out.

Garrison sucks. It's boring as shit. Since the wars are pretty much wound down, it's only going to get worse. Expect to spend a lot of time doing police call around the company building or barracks. You'll also go to five or six formations a day where nothing is said except "next formation at 1130 hours", for which you will be expected to show up at 1100 hours, only to be yelled at by your first sergeant for standing around the company HQ.

If you do get deployed to a combat zone, you can look forward to rules of engagement and escalation of force requirements so convoluted that you'll get to choose between letting the enemy just kill you, and breaking the rules and risking jail time if the wrong person sees you. Public relations is much more important than your life, you see.

If you're accused of a crime, expect to be assumed guilty by your chain of command.

Obviously the above is an enlisted perspective. As an officer you'd be doing paperwork. And more paperwork. Being an officer is basically all politics. The only cool officer jobs are in aviation and special operations, IMO.

Anyway, that's just my experience. YMMV. It's not all bad, just keep in mind for every ounce of cool stuff you do there's a pound of steaming bullshit to choke down.

Post: #21

The military now is under 100% direction and service of the plutocracy - you will be serving them.

Forget any idealism.

That said it can be a great individual learning space, where you meet great guys, can grow individually and can have extreme powerful experiences. But be aware that you are serving ultimately evil interests and may be guarding poppy fields and killing plenty of innocent people. If that bothers you too much, then you might consider doing something else.

So in short: Join the military for the personal growth, but not for idealism - that is crap - and you should be strong in mind and should be aware that you might be forced to do atrocious acts. You have to be able to assess yourself well enough before doing that. And that is actually a hard thing to do for most men before age 26.

I have been a soldier for some time and basically it taught me, the best way to survive is to create some sort of different personality from your own. Then afterwards it is easier to return to your normal self again. That is of course if you are one of the few combat troops out there.

Post: #22

(06-28-2014 03:07 AM)weambulance Wrote:  The only cool officer jobs are in aviation and special operations, IMO.

Many aviation officers who actually like flying become warrants as soon as they're at risk of being 'promoted out of the cockpit'. Heard from retiring SOF officers that "the bullshit" you refer to above in some areas of SOF is just as bad, if not worse than it is everywhere else in the military.

I was not either of those things, or in the military, so take it for what it's worth. I've met a few "gonna-be a SEAL" kids, I didn't want to be one of them, and I think that kept me out of the military as much as anything else.