Post: #1

First off, I'd like to commend this group for the amazing resources that are pooled from when members post here. This is what I found doing an initial search before starting this thread.

/thread-26713-...#pid542112

With that in mind, what are your opinions on PFC Bergdahl?

Is he heroic for living in Taliban quarters for five years or is he a shameless deserter?

What do you think about how the media and politicians are handling it?

Most importantly, what does his actions and whatever consequences he ends up facing say about honor and dependability among men? Is this a huge blow to the military?

Here's the latest, detailed news on this by the NY Times as I post this

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/04/world/....html?_r=0

Post: #2

There are always going to be crazy people. He's just a crazy person, so no blow to the military.

But yes he is a traitor. He willingly left the base under his own power with the express intent to join the opposing force.

It's hard to accurately determine the cost in terms of life of his actions. Soldiers were killed during the initial search for him. Soldiers were killed in the ensuing years due to his knowledge of american tactics and his acts of training the taliban.

Look at it this way: The media and politcians love the guy. The media gets ratings. The politicians use him to advance their careers.

But how soldiers look at this guy? Anyone who has seen combat knows right away this kids a traitor and nothing more. I think its good that we got him back (although he's not worth 5 high profile terrorists we traded for him) as that sets the message that we will do anything for our POWs. Now it's time to court martial the kid, hold him accountable for his actions, and lock him up in Leavenworth for the rest of his life.

Post: #3

At the moment, he is innocent until proven guilty. People always seem to forget that's a thing.

As to whether he's a hero, traitor, or anything else, we will see.

Post: #4

He was trying to be like Kwai Chang Caine from Kung Fu and wander the earth having adventures by saving poor, unfortunate, people in need of justice.

Post: #5

(06-04-2014 07:26 AM)Mike5055 Wrote:  At the moment, he is innocent until proven guilty.

Yep. He innocently mailed all his belongings home, wrote letters about what he wanted to do, told fellow soldiers what he wanted to do, left his weapon behind, walked off his FOB, and began looking for the taliban.

Post: #6

Of course the guy is a f'ing traitor. Not only that, his loser's idiocy made the lives of other guys a living hell because they had to organize a rapid search exposing themselves to attack. Some good guys lost their lives because of this loser. And now he is exchanged for some high ranking enemy commanders who will be able to do more damage.

I have never seen an example where military guys -- his own platoon mates -- hated one of their own as much as they hated this guy. This just doesn't happen. One of the dudes from his platoon said that when this traitor was captured, his hope was that the Taliban would just behead him and get it over with. All the platoon mates had an agreement to beat the shit out of him if they ever found him. That tells you all you need to know.

The whole story is disgusting, and the fact that we traded real bad dudes for this loser is beyond disgusting. I hope he is court martialed and thrown in prison for the rest of his life for treason and desertion, but it seems like that won't happen either.

Post: #7

AntiTrace - I personally do think he will be found guilty. However, he does deserve a fair trial. After that, if he's found guilty, they should throw the book at him.

Post: #8

I don't think military law is the same as civilian law Mike. Not sure if you are innocent until proven guilty while serving in the military. I think its only true of certain cases.

Post: #9

(06-04-2014 07:45 AM)Mike5055 Wrote:  AntiTrace - I personally do think he will be found guilty. However, he does deserve a fair trial. After that, if he's found guilty, they should throw the book at him.

I feel ya. And yes I agree he deserves a fail trial. After all, we aren't a bunch of savages. We are civilized people and he deserves to plead his case.

I just hate the "innocent until proven guilty" defense that most liberals use.

I know how the American legal system works, I don't need to be reminded about it. It's simply a cop out to providing a rational defense while making the accuser seem like a club-wielding war monger.


Back to the topic: Hero, Traitor, or Something Else?

How about the definition of Hero, which is thrown around more than Paris Hiltons ass:

Hero - A hero or heroine refers to characters who, in the face of danger and adversity or from a position of weakness, display courage and the will for self-sacrifice—that is, heroism—for some greater good of all humanity.

Now Traitor:

Traitor - a person who betrays a friend, country, principle, etc.

I've already voiced which category I believe Bergdahl falls into.

Post: #10

(06-04-2014 07:30 AM)Carlos100 Wrote:  He was trying to be like Kwai Chang Caine from Kung Fu and wander the earth having adventures by saving poor, unfortunate, people in need of justice.

This reminds me a deployment story.

Long story short, one day our intel officer comes in and says you have to see this. He sends me a link to a intelligence report about some idiot that deserted and was picked up by Afghan Police and returned to US forces. The report contained a photo of the soldier after he had been picked up. He was wearing a make-shift, all-black ninja outfit and carrying only a small bag with supplies and a sword he bought from one of the hodgie marts. Also included was a copy of his "manifesto" the MPs found in his living area outlining how he was going to escape the base and make his way across Afghanistan into Europe, along with his reasoning of leaving his weapon and taking only a sword for self defense. It was pure insane drivel.

Post: #11

Not a hero, not a traitor. Just a private who apparently got sick of the war, which was then and is now a futile enterprise.

Unless it's in the context of some kind of peace negotiations, it was wrong to release those high-value targets. If there is a peace deal coming, good news, otherwise a mistake. But it's time to GTFO. If the Afghan government can't beat the Taliban by now, they are just another South Vietnamese Army: unwilling to fight.

Bergdahl should be prosecuted for AWOL or desertion (desertion is difficult to prove), busted and kicked out of the Army. Further incarceration after being confined by the Taliban would be piling on.

Post: #12

I saw his father sporting a big Taliban beard himself and speaking Pashtun. My guess is that good old Bergdahl - pronounced "baergdaal" - suffers from a case of scandi over-tolerance, seeing as his name is clearly from there.

In any case, it's clear to me that the release of 5 taliban was not because of Bergdahl. Of course they wouldn't give away such valuable assets for one guy, but probably had intel about Taliban being up to something or maybe they have negotiated some kind of cease fire, while democrats try to rally for the next election or whatever. Bergdahl is obviously just meant for public appearance in a much bigger deal behind the scenes.

Post: #13

He is a traitor and a deserter. The pathetic excuse for a "leader" who handed the executive leadership of the Taliban back to them is also a traitor.

Bowe should be tried, and if found guilty, stood against a wall and be summarily executed.

I have connections to one of the real soldiers who was killed looking for this piece of shit.

Post: #14

(06-04-2014 08:20 AM)berserk Wrote:  I saw his father sporting a big Taliban beard himself and speaking Pashtun. My guess is that good old Bergdahl - pronounced "baergdaal" - suffers from a case of scandi over-tolerance, seeing as his name is clearly from there.

In any case, it's clear to me that the release of 5 taliban was not because of Bergdahl. Of course they wouldn't give away such valuable assets for one guy, but probably had intel about Taliban being up to something or maybe they have negotiated some kind of cease fire, while democrats try to rally for the next election or whatever. Bergdahl is obviously just meant for public appearance in a much bigger deal behind the scenes.

Now this is an interesting concept and why I added the last option to the thread. Nice

Baphomet I'm sorry. I'd feel like fuck this guy too if it was one of my guys

Post: #15

(06-04-2014 08:20 AM)berserk Wrote:  I saw his father sporting a big Taliban beard himself and speaking Pashtun.

He was speaking Arabic, not Pashun. "bismillah al-Rahman al-Rahim" is Arabic, and would probably not even be understood by the Pashtun speaking Afghans. Arabic would normally only be spoken by the Saudi al-qaeda members in Afghanistan.

Post: #16

(06-04-2014 08:03 AM)AntiTrace Wrote:  I just hate the "innocent until proven guilty" defense that most liberals use.

The reason the "innocent until proven guilty" clause is SO IMPORTANT is because it is intended to protect those falsely accused, not to protect those who really are guilty.

And with today's loose morals and political machinations & backstabbing of everyone in powerful positions, everyone is trying to throw someone under the bus for something.

Unless someone's been accused of something when he's innocent, however, one doesn't really understand the importance of "innocent until proven guilty." But once you have been accused of something and you really are innocent you understand just how important and critical "innocent until proven guilty" is.

Even though this particular situation is different, I would expect members of this board to be more understanding of "innocent until proven guilty" given the prevalence of false rape accusations against men. And its important to approach all alleged wrongdoings from the same frame of due process.

Post: #17

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnaeK8G9SRY

Post: #18

(06-04-2014 09:15 AM)monster Wrote:  

(06-04-2014 08:03 AM)AntiTrace Wrote:  I just hate the "innocent until proven guilty" defense that most liberals use.

The reason the "innocent until proven guilty" clause is SO IMPORTANT is because it is intended to protect those falsely accused, not to protect those who really are guilty.

And with today's loose morals and political machinations & backstabbing of everyone in powerful positions, everyone is trying to throw someone under the bus for something.

Unless someone's been accused of something when he's innocent, however, one doesn't really understand the importance of "innocent until proven guilty." But once you have been accused of something and you really are innocent you understand just how important and critical "innocent until proven guilty" is.

Even though this particular situation is different, I would expect members of this board to be more understanding of "innocent until proven guilty" given the prevalence of false rape accusations against men. And its important to approach all alleged wrongdoings from the same frame of due process.

you missed the point.

The point was this: "Innocent until proven guilty" is not a valid defense. It is a statement of fact of the operation of the US legal system. People use it an attempt to attack the accusers.

Like this:
Person 1 - *Logical argument favoring why person X is guilty*
Person 2 - "People always forget that your innocent until proven guilty" <-- provides no logical counter argument. Attacks the other person by insulting their intelligence. Attempts to undermine the accuser without providing counterpoints

You don't have to tell me people are innocent until proven guilty. A thirtd grader has that much knowledge about the legal system. In my original post I said I want to see get a court martial. Hence, I'm for putting him through trial and not burning him at the stake.

Post: #19

Everybody knows he is a trader.

The question is, what is going on right now that this is distracting us from?

Post: #20

Like him or not, he is 100% on the money with this:

Quote:In the US army you are cut down for being honest... but if you are a conceited brown nosing shit bag you will be allowed to do what ever you want, and you will be handed your higher rank... The system is wrong. I am ashamed to be an american. And the title of US soldier is just the lie of fools...I am sorry for everything here. These people need help, yet what they get is the most conceited country in the world telling them that they are nothing and that they are stupid, that they have no idea how to live. We don't even care when we hear each other talk about running their children down in the dirt streets with our armored trucks... We make fun of them in front of their faces, and laugh at them for not understanding we are insulting them...I am sorry for everything. The horror that is america is disgusting...There are a few more boxes coming to you guys. Feel free to open them, and use them.

Post: #21

(06-04-2014 09:49 AM)General Mayhem Wrote:  Everybody knows he is a trader.

The question is, what is going on right now that this is distracting us from?

Perhaps Obama bloviating about how he still intends to close Guantanamo Bay?

Post: #22

Please enlighten how the following is "100% on the money":

Quote:In the US army you are cut down for being honest... but if you are a conceited brown nosing shit bag you will be allowed to do what ever you want, and you will be handed your higher rank... The system is wrong.

This isn't just a military problem. Its worldwide and part of human nature. And anytime someones says "you are cut down for being honest" you need to be very careful. Being "honest" in his terms could be telling everyone in the military about his anti-military and pro-Islam views. That is obviously not going to be seen positively. A red-piller going into his corporate world and shitting on all the fat, lazy, entitled women there while telling the men they need to improve themselves and hit the gym, would not be taken lightly either.

Honesty is a dangerous term because a neo-nazi thinks he is being honest when he says its permissible to murder all Jews.

Quote:I am ashamed to be an american.

I'm not fond of the typical american either. I don't go off and join the enemy forces to help kill US Soldiers that I had fought besides for however long.

Quote:And the title of US soldier is just the lie of fools...I am sorry for everything here. These people need help, yet what they get is the most conceited country in the world telling them that they are nothing and that they are stupid, that they have no idea how to live.

Spoken like a private who sits outside on security. The commander that is inside in the meeting negotiating with locals on establishing regional security and offering untold sums of American money to rebuild infrastructure would have a more accurate view.

Quote:We don't even care when we hear each other talk about running their children down in the dirt streets with our armored trucks... We make fun of them in front of their faces, and laugh at them for not understanding we are insulting them...

Dehumanization in war. Soldiers talk like this because you have to cope with the situation somehow. Killing a child bothers everyone except the very minute percentage of complete sociopaths.

What you don't see is televised national celebrations of killing thousands of innocent people and burning their home country flag. But guess who did that after 9/11? Hmmmm...

Quote:I am sorry for everything. The horror that is america is disgusting...There are a few more boxes coming to you guys. Feel free to open them, and use them.

Yep, America is disgusting.

But a culture that beheads their captives on live tv, threatens innocent people with murder if they don't do comply with demands, and routinely has mass celebrations of the murdering of innocent people isn't?

He is a radical muslim. Thus his ability to think rationally is completely removed. He is a blind follower of Islam faith and will take anything as truth as long as it is followed by "praise be to Allah". Muslims aren't dangerous, Radical Muslims (and radicals of any religion) are.

Post: #23

Innocent until proven guilty is a direction for judge and jury. We are neither. We are free to form our own opinions, hopefully constrained by the available evidence.

From all the evidence I've seen so far, the man is a traitor. The one possible silver lining in this is that people get to see what a REAL traitor looks like - and not a leaker who pisses off government cronies like Edward Snowden. Plus it may delegitimize the Commander in Chief in the eyes of the rank and file military - I'd expect the flag level officers to keep on brown-nosing though.

"Baphomet I'm sorry. I'd feel like fuck this guy too if it was one of my guys"

So since you didn't know anyone who may have died because of this man, you'd think differently about his status as a hero or a traitor? That sounds rather narrow-minded.

Post: #24

(06-04-2014 08:07 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  Not a hero, not a traitor. Just a private who apparently got sick of the war, which was then and is now a futile enterprise.

Unless it's in the context of some kind of peace negotiations, it was wrong to release those high-value targets. If there is a peace deal coming, good news, otherwise a mistake. But it's time to GTFO. If the Afghan government can't beat the Taliban by now, they are just another South Vietnamese Army: unwilling to fight.

Bergdahl should be prosecuted for AWOL or desertion (desertion is difficult to prove), busted and kicked out of the Army. Further incarceration after being confined by the Taliban would be piling on.

Agree. Regardless of whether he was a traitor or hero, these 5 men would have been released. The US realizes that the Taliban will eventually take over. It is better to have an ally in Afghanistan than a sworn enemy. This is just damage-control.

Post: #25

I'm inclined to believe the soldiers.