Post: #1

Student writes letter to Harvard Crimson about supposed rape:

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2014/3...l-assault/

I expect this to become bigger news over the next few days; a few places--Jezebel, the Daily Mail--have already picked it up. Summary: student supposedly raped by a man who lives in her House (like a dorm I guess?). She complains to the dean and housing authorities wanting her alleged assailant moved to a different House. Doesn't report to police, school determines that what happened doesn't meet the University's sexual assault standard, refuses to move the guy.

Most of the article is about her psychological suffering and battles with administration, but what I found interesting was her account of the "rape."

He was a friend of mine and I trusted him. It was a freezing Friday night when I stumbled into his dorm room after too many drinks. He took my shirt off and started biting the skin on my neck and breast. I pushed back on his chest and asked him to stop kissing me aggressively. He laughed. He said that I should “just wear a scarf” to cover the marks. He continued to abuse my body, hurting my breast and vagina. He asked me to use my mouth. I said no. I was intoxicated, I was in pain, I was trapped between him and the wall, and I was scared to death that he would continue to ignore what I said. I stopped everything and turned my back to him, praying he would leave me alone. He started getting impatient. “Are you only going to make me hard, or are you going to make me come?” he said in a demanding tone.

It did not sound like a question. I obeyed.

So she goes to the dorm room of a man she knows, after drinking but not too drunk to walk, talk, remember, or make decisions. (Notice she doesn't seem to base her rape allegation on being too drunk to consent, nor would her own account support such a claim.) He starts making out with her and taking her clothes off, apparently without using force (she mentions none). He kisses and and bites her roughly, which many girls like; she asks him to stop "kissing her so aggressively" (i.e., she does not ask him to stop kissing her entirely).

Then she gets vague, alleging that he "abused her body." Abused is a conclusory term, i.e., it assumes the conclusion. Many women like being touched forcefully; the fact that it hurt her doesn't prove that it was not consensual. At this point he could be either a sexual abuser or a too-rough, clumsy lover. We just don't know, because she hasn't given us enough facts.

He asks for oral sex; she feels able to and does refuse, and he accepts her refusal. Then her account digresses into talking about her subjective state: she was intoxicated (but not too intoxicated to say no); she was "in pain" from his rough and/or clumsy makeout technique; she claims to have been "trapped between him and the wall," though she never says she tried to move or that he kept her there and, again, many women like being pushed up against a wall and made out with forcefully; and she was "scared to death that he would continue to ignore what I said," even though he had in fact responded to what she said on several occasions and had accepted her no, and she gives no reason why she was "scared to death"--no violence, no threats express or implied.

Finally he asks her if she will make him come, and she agrees, because his "demanding tone" did not "sound like a question."

In my opinion Harvard was correct, this is patently not rape. Her consent was not obtained by force or threat of force, nor was she too intoxicated to consent. This poor girl agreed to sex she did not want because of phantom fears she conjured up in her own head or, more likely, campus feminists conjured up for her by their unending warnings about rape culture. And now she is, I'd guess, truly traumatized by what happened (though I would not be surprised to learn of preexisting mental health issues).

This sounds to me like an example of something a woman described in an essay I ran across online some time ago: this girl raped herself. She had so little assertiveness, so little strength of character, so little understanding of her own sexual desires, that she showed up at a guy's room, drunk, probably unsure herself what she wanted. This full-grown adult human being acted like a lost little lamb. If he had been a skillful and caring lover she'd have woken up the next morning cooing in his arms. But he was a bit rough and selfish, or perhaps just assumed she wanted it that way as so many girls do. She had no capacity, and took no responsibility, to guide the interaction herself. And because the man treated her like an adult, not like a child, an adult who could speak up if she did not like how things were going, she feels raped.

I spent some time this morning searching around for this essay I read in which a woman, now older, described going through this kind of thing as a young woman and, looking back, acknowledged that she essentially raped herself by going through with things she did not want even though no one was forcing her. I could not find it. If it rings any bells, please point me to it. Could have been on Slate, or somewhere like Judgy Bitch.

Post: #2

Believe it or not, as an avid red-piller anti-feminist I despise rape. I don't want rape to happen, even if women are just beautiful bodies operated by a hyper-energetic hamster.

The problem is that feminist don't empower women to clearly say no, instead they breed this huge fear of imminent bodily harm to any women for expressing her desires (or lack thereof). It is the feminist fear campaign on rape that is doing the most to silence women in situations such as the article above.

Then again submitting is a part of their core, even if they don't want the sex they want to submit. At this point it's up to the hamster to rationalize how what they want, and what they don't want are one in the same. Whether or not they come up with 'rape' as an answer depends on how well conditioned they are to believe that submission isn't a part of their nature.

Post: #3

Can't tell if this is a troll, but that's the definition of rape.

She says no and pushes him away. He continues, when he should have stopped.

This isn't a grey area.

WIA

Post: #4

She got raped in a dorm? Why didn't she just call out for help?

EDIT: Read it carefully again. All bullshit.

Post: #5

I have deep sympathy for the author of the letter/article and her mental state. Mental illness is a real issue with no real solution. Hopefully she can get to a better mental place in life.

That being said, the brain is much more powerful than we give credit. The brain actually makes hypochondriacs physically ill. They experience real physical symptoms that link back to nothing. I bring this up because it seems this girl is letting her mind wander in a negative direction and take control of her life.

By reading her account of the incident you can tell she is trying to make it as violent as possible. There are large gaps missing (as the OP pointed out), and no clear signs of actual harassment. The "scarf comment" that the boy made is definitely something most men would say after giving a girl a neck hickey, and I can only assume it was said in a playful tone. As discussed by the OP, I really do believe she went into his dorm room not knowing what she wanted. She was under the influence and advances were made so we can assume that sex may have been up in the air before she even stepped in the room. However, maybe his clumsiness turned her off just enough for her not to be active in obtaining a sexual experience, but she was still allowing advances so some sort of interest was still there. That being said, these are all assumptions.

Take notice that this isn't referred to rape in the letter. This is smart because some sort of resistance is required for rape to occur towards a conscious human being. Her account reflects absolutely no resistance towards sex, and that is important. That is probably exactly why no action was taken by the university... not because of some "20 year old legislation".

In conclusion, it was a very odd article filled with gray. Nothing about this is black and white. Let's hope she gets over this and can overcome her mind someday.

Post: #6

Quote:She says no and pushes him away. He continues, when he should have stopped. This isn't a grey area.

Gregory (Scotland Yard detective): "Is there any other point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
Holmes: "To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time."
Gregory: "The dog did nothing in the night-time."
Holmes: "That was the curious incident."

I'm not sure about this. Now, I'm thousands of miles away, and I'm only reading a single newspaper article, but this looks like it was very carefully written to give a specific impression. Things are implied, but they're never stated. And the reason they're not stated is that they likely didn't happen.

He was a friend of mine and I trusted him. It was a freezing Friday night when I stumbled into his dorm room after too many drinks. He took my shirt off and started biting the skin on my neck and breast.


The first and most obvious question is what the hell happened between sentences two and three? She stumbled into a guy's dorm room and all of a sudden he took off her shirt? If I pulled off a girl's shirt without her consent, I would go to jail. No, she was perfectly comfortable with him stripping off her clothes, otherwise she would write it.

I pushed back on his chest and asked him to stop kissing me aggressively. He laughed. He said that I should “just wear a scarf” to cover the marks.
This has been pointed out, but it wasn't "Stop kissing me," it was "stop kissing me aggressively."

He continued to abuse my body, hurting my breast and vagina.
Note how tremendously vague this is. There's no indication of what actually happened. Just that he "abused her body."

He asked me to use my mouth. I said no.
Note that this is the only time during the encounter that she actually refuses consent. Note also that he doesn't force her to do it after she refuses. That would be rape, or sexual assault at a minimum, and if he had she would certainly tell us about it.

I was intoxicated, I was in pain, I was trapped between him and the wall, and I was scared to death that he would continue to ignore what I said.

"I was so afraid that if I told him no, he would keep doing it. So I just let him keep doing it!" No wonder the school laughed in her face.

I stopped everything and turned my back to him, praying he would leave me alone. He started getting impatient. “Are you only going to make me hard, or are you going to make me come?” he said in a demanding tone.


That's not even token resistance. She turned around. That's the extent of it.

From later on in the article:

Quote:Shortly after I reported my sexual assault to my House staff, I was told by a senior member of the College administration that the Administrative Board was very unlikely to “issue a charge” against my assailant and to launch a thorough investigative process because my assailant may not have technically violated the school’s policy in the student handbook.

This is Harvard, one of the most liberal colleges in the country. It is filled to the brim with people who would love nothing more than to throw some guy behind bars and strike a blow at the patriarchy. And yet still, they told her to get out.

At no point did he threaten her.
At no point did she resist.
At no point did she even tell him to stop.

Ergo, with the evidence available we must conclude she was neither raped nor sexually assaulted.

Post: #7

Quote:He was a friend of mine and I trusted him. It was a freezing Friday night when I stumbled into his dorm room after too many drinks. He took my shirt off and started biting the skin on my neck and breast. I pushed back on his chest and asked him to stop kissing me aggressively. He laughed. He said that I should “just wear a scarf” to cover the marks. He continued to abuse my body, hurting my breast and vagina. He asked me to use my mouth. I said no. I was intoxicated, I was in pain, I was trapped between him and the wall, and I was scared to death that he would continue to ignore what I said. I stopped everything and turned my back to him, praying he would leave me alone. He started getting impatient. “Are you only going to make me hard, or are you going to make me come?” he said in a demanding tone.

It did not sound like a question. I obeyed.

Shortly after I reported my sexual assault to my House staff, I was told by a senior member of the College administration that the Administrative Board was very unlikely to “issue a charge” against my assailant and to launch a thorough investigative process because my assailant may not have technically violated the school’s policy in the student handbook. Even though he had verbally pressured me into sexual activity and physically hurt me, the incident did not fall within the scope of the school’s narrow definition of sexual assault.

The policy, published in the spring of 1993, defines “indecent assault and battery” to be anything involving “unwanted touching or fondling of a sexual nature that is accompanied by physical force or threat of bodily injury.” It does not provide any definition of consent beyond the brief mention, in its definition of rape, that a victim cannot consent if he or she is unable to express unwillingness due to alcohol or drugs, among other factors.

I skimmed through some of it and I am calling BS.

It reads like something out of a romance novel rather than something that happened in real life. There is more of a focus on drama and emotion over facts.

Also, look at the bolded parts. She does not make it clear whether or not there was vaginal penetration.

Even if there was, he did not use physical force to make her have sex with him.

All he did was, in her own words, verbally pressure her.

Does verbally pressuring someone to perform sexual activities equal rape?

Post: #8

(04-01-2014 01:15 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  Can't tell if this is a troll, but that's the definition of rape.

She says no and pushes him away. He continues, when he should have stopped.

This isn't a grey area.

WIA

WIA, I agree with you about the definition of rape, and I agree with you that if what you said happened, happened, that would be rape. But that is not her account (unless perhaps you read between the lines and take all inferences in her favor--i.e., assume she meant things she did not actually say).

If I am just hanging out with a chick and she suddenly grabs my cock and tugs on it painfully, that's assault. But if we are making out and she reaches down and tugs on my cock in a way that I find painful, and I tell her "don't do that, that hurts," and she stops, that is not assault. And if we then go on and have sex, that is not rape.

Here, she is engaging in sexual activity with him (and, as Faust points out, she skips over how that started). He kisses her in a way she doesn't like, and she tells him "stop kissing me that way." And as far as we know, he does. He then touches her in other ways (on the breasts and vagina), in a way that she didn't enjoy but also didn't tell him to stop--and remember, again, this is in the context of an ongoing sexual encounter that began, as far as we know, without force or threats.

Sex is rape when it is either nonconsensual, when consent is obtained through force or threat of force, or when the victim is incapable of consent, e.g. due to intoxication. Here, she consented. He asked her to get him off, and she did so (she doesn't say how). She wasn't incapable of consent. So the only question is, was her consent obtained either by force or by threat of force? No, it wasn't. If she was afraid, it was because she is so fragile, or so pumped full of rape-culture fear propaganda, that she found being alone in a room with a man at Harvard in the 21st century--one of the safest places and times in all of human history--terrifying. That is sad, but it is not rape.

Post: #9

redacted

Post: #10

(04-01-2014 01:42 PM)All or Nothing Wrote:  I skimmed through some of it and I am calling BS.

It reads like something out of a romance novel rather than something that happened in real life. There is more of a focus on drama and emotion over facts.

Look at the very structure of the letter/article. It is written in a way to brew emotion before events are unfolded to the reader. By the time the average reader gets to the event of question they have already taken her side. This girl is very smart and gifted in her writing. The whole piece is constructed to compel enough emotion in readers so they mentally dismiss facts and reasoning.

(04-01-2014 02:55 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  "I pushed back on his chest and asked him to stop kissing me aggressively."

^ that's the cut and paste.

Read it like a prosecutor.

I know we got a few criminal defense attorneys here, but my analysis is the State would excuse all of her behavior up to this point and not pay attention to any of her inconsistent behaviour after that point. And his behavior after that point would shock a jury. (Even if that's what they normally experience)

She both physically and verbally asserts herself and tells him to stop. Arguably she didn't consent to the earlier behavior either, and in some jurisdictions that would be criminal as well. That's the gray area, imo. Everything that happens after that is black and white.

I do not believe this fragmented account of the events used in her piece would be used in the legal system. Wouldn't one be concerned with the amount of time that lapsed during each point in her story?

There are always two sides to a story, and right now we only have a fraction of one side for reference.

Post: #11

(04-01-2014 02:55 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

(04-01-2014 02:06 PM)Ryre Wrote:  

(04-01-2014 01:15 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  Can't tell if this is a troll, but that's the definition of rape.

She says no and pushes him away. He continues, when he should have stopped.

This isn't a grey area.

WIA

WIA, I agree with you about the definition of rape, and I agree with you that if what you said happened, happened, that would be rape.

"I pushed back on his chest and asked him to stop kissing me aggressively."

^ that's the cut and paste.

Read it like a prosecutor.

It's her word against his. She had no marks. That's a clear case?

Quote:If any of you were to write this up for Return of Kings, I'd caution you against it. It's not a very sympathetic case at all.

I already did, almost a year ago:

http://www.returnofkings.com/6886/3-sign...accusation

1. Virtually no evidence of struggle: check.

2. The attacker is invited to the victim’s house OR the victim willingly went to the attacker’s house: check.

3. Authorities are alerted days, weeks, or even months after the rape: nope.

So it's 2/3 signs met here. Smells like bullshit to me. She claimed she got raped in a dorm room. If she had screamed twenty other people would have heard her.

Post: #12

"You and Mr. Smith were kissing each other, correct?"
"He was kissing me, yes."
"Were you facing him?"
"Yes."
"Was he restraining you in any way?"
"No."
"Was your mouth on his?"
"Yes."
"Were your lips open or closed?"
"They were open at first, but he was hurting me so I pulled away."
"So you were kissing each other, correct?"
"At first yes, but he was hurting me so I told him to stop."
"You told him to stop kissing you aggressively, correct?"
"Yes."
"You did not tell him to stop kissing you at all?"
"No."
"You did not tell him you wanted to leave?"
"No."
"You did not tell him you wanted no further sexual contact with him?"
"No."
"After you told him to stop kissing you in that particular way, did he stop?"
"Yes."
"What did he do then?"
"He started touching my breasts."
"Did you tell him to stop?"
"No."
Etc.

As you might have guessed, I am one of the defense attorneys here. Look, could a prosecutor play up the female victim angle and get a conviction? Sure, could happen. But if we read what she wrote objectively, she was not raped. Don't take my word for it--Harvard authorities apparently agreed with me.

This isn't a case of "rape with extenuating circumstances." It isn't even a case of "silence doesn't equal consent." This is two people making out; she doesn't like all of it and, every time she makes her feelings known, he respects that. But ultimately, when he asks her to get him off, she does. No weapon, no force, no threats.

She doesn't specify what physical action she takes to get him off, whether it's a handjob or whether she her removes garments and assumes a position allowing him to penetrate her. But, unless she is omitting major details (e.g. him pulling down her pants and underwear, lifting her to the bed, and spreading her legs), she took physical action indicating her consent to sex. Even if the sex took place with her standing with her back to him, she removed her pants and underwear--why would she fail to mention him doing that when she tells us he removed her shirt?

It's possible she was raped and she just does a shitty job telling the story. Or perhaps didn't feel she needed to prove her case in a letter that was mostly about her experience afterwards. But to me her omissions and vagueries seem strategic. She tells us the things he did that make him look the worst, and omits important details--how the makeout started, why she went to his room, exactly how he "abused" her body, how the sex actually went down.

I'm not saying I would do what this guy did. He doesn't sound like the world's most considerate lover. But there is a far cry between that and committing a serious violent felony, on the level of stabbing someone with a knife or robbing a bank.

Post: #13

Quote:I already did, almost a year ago:

http://www.returnofkings.com/6886/3-sign...accusation

1. Virtually no evidence of struggle: check.

2. The attacker is invited to the victim’s house OR the victim willingly went to the attacker’s house: check.

3. Authorities are alerted days, weeks, or even months after the rape: nope.

So it's 2/3 signs met here. Smells like bullshit to me. She claimed she got raped in a dorm room. If she had screamed twenty other people would have heard her.

Could be 3--she's vague about when she reported it.

Yes, it could be a completely false report. But even if it happened just like she says, without filling in additional facts, she was not raped--even though she may very well feel like she was (and thus not feel like she is making a false report).

Post: #14

(04-01-2014 03:42 PM)Ryre Wrote:  As you might have guessed, I am one of the defense attorneys here. Look, could a prosecutor play up the female victim angle and get a conviction? Sure, could happen. But if we read what she wrote objectively, she was not raped. Don't take my word for it--Harvard authorities apparently agreed with me.

This isn't a case of "rape with extenuating circumstances." It isn't even a case of "silence doesn't equal consent." This is two people making out; she doesn't like all of it and, every time she makes her feelings known, he respects that. But ultimately, when he asks her to get him off, she does. No weapon, no force, no threats.

She doesn't specify what physical action she takes to get him off, whether it's a handjob or whether she her removes garments and assumes a position allowing him to penetrate her. But, unless she is omitting major details (e.g. him pulling down her pants and underwear, lifting her to the bed, and spreading her legs), she took physical action indicating her consent to sex. Even if the sex took place with her standing with her back to him, she removed her pants and underwear--why would she fail to mention him doing that when she tells us he removed her shirt?

It's possible she was raped and she just does a shitty job telling the story. Or perhaps didn't feel she needed to prove her case in a letter that was mostly about her experience afterwards. But to me her omissions and vagueries seem strategic. She tells us the things he did that make him look the worst, and omits important details--how the makeout started, why she went to his room, exactly how he "abused" her body, how the sex actually went down.

I'm not saying I would do what this guy did. He doesn't sound like the world's most considerate lover. But there is a far cry between that and committing a serious violent felony, on the level of stabbing someone with a knife or robbing a bank.

Precisely.


I decided to hover on over to Jezebel's coverage of the article to see how they took it. As expected, it was a very emotional response from that crowd. I originally skimmed through the second page of the article, but I saw a big fuss over there about Havard's "non-compliance" to Title IX and to move the assailant to a different house.

Title IX is defined in the article as... "which requires universities to provide a safe environment to survivors of sexual assault". Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't providing a safe space involve relocating someone from a hostile environment? How would leaving someone at the scene of the crime be beneficial? Even if the assailant were gone, she would still have to walk by that door. That door with the room number isn't leaving.

However, the victim refused to move because it would send her away from her friends and favorite tutors. Have any of you guys been to Harvard? It is a relatively small campus. This isn't the University of Texas that we are talking about.

Also, the victim continues talking about how no one would give her validation for how she felt. At one point she ever brings up how an resident staff recommended forgiving the assailant, and it is clear she doesn't agree with this idea. The more I read this letter/article, the more it seems that she is using this event as an excuse for something bigger. Maybe she was already losing to her onsetting mental illness and this is now to blame. Maybe her academic performance was subpar and she needed something to blame.

The one thing I am surprised I haven't seen yet is the suggestion of maybe this dude started ignoring her and she didn't take kindly to that.

No matter what it is, there is an untold story and it is exactly the reason why she is not pressing charges.

Post: #15

I'm rather surprised there there is any debate here on this forum. The fact that people here disagree tells me that, in every other forum, everyone is going to side with her.

Post: #16

Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't "fight or flight" instincts kick in? Wouldn't she at least scream for help? She wasn't threatened or anything... Maybe the guy just escalated too quickly and she got scared/nervous. IDK...maybe the guy though she was putting up LMR?

Post: #17

This letter is a disgusting piece of rehearsed hysteria which is well worth reading in full. Of course this female whines about her "depression", is on psychoactive drugs, has constant nightmares of being "assaulted in public", cannot drink alcohol without "starting to cry hysterically", and has even dropped her "favorite extracurriculars" (a truly unthinkable calamity). Basically, her life is over, all because some dude fucked her and she decided for no reason that it was "assault". Her case was so weak that even in today's atmosphere an Ivy League college did not so much as make the dude move to another dorm. In other words, there was no case at all.

All this could be dismissed as an unpleasant absurdity, if not for things like this Washington Post story:

Quote:Watch out. Sen. Claire McCaskill (D-Mo.) is turning her attention from sexual assault in the nation’s military to what appears to be an epidemic of rape on the country’s college campuses.

In a move that’s timed to coincide with the first day of Sexual Assault Awareness Month, the former sex crimes prosecutor has sent letters to U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder and U.S. Education Secretary Arne Duncan requesting in-person briefings by April 11.

McCaskill wants specific data on the process for reporting sexual assaults by colleges and universities, copies of training materials for institutions and local law enforcement, information on what kind of guidance is provided to schools and other agencies on the reporting and legal procedures of sexual assault and the details of how many enforcement actions have occurred since 1991. Possibly most important is the number of cases that are handled by campuses versus the local legal system.

Title IX, which prohibits discrimination on the basis of sex at college and universities — and sexual assault and violence are considered discrimination — applies to any college or university that receives federal funds. As many as 19 percent of college women, with freshman at the highest risk, have been victims of sexual assault.

“I fear that, like the U.S. military, we’re going to find problems on college campuses just as systemic as our troops faced—including very low reporting due to lack of protections and resources,” said McCaskill in a statement. “No young man or woman should be left on their own after being victimized, and our schools must provide the highest level of responsiveness to ensure victims are empowered, and perpetrators are held accountable.”

The White House established a task force in January to protect college students from sexual assault. Former President Jimmy Carter also discussed the issue in his book released last week “A Call to Action.”

In other words, the current levels of rape hysteria on US college campuses have been judged to be insufficient, and more young men need to have their lives permanently ruined for no reason to show the existence of a fantastical "rape epidemic" in the midst of some of the safest and most placid locales that have ever existed on the face of the earth.

This is the evil hag (a former "sex crimes prosecutor") who has taken it upon herself to fan the flames:



She will quite literally be responsible for the irreversible ruination of the lives of dozens and perhaps hundreds of innocent young men across America. It is a grim thing to contemplate.

Post: #18

I am surprised at the support for this whining, solipsistic letter as well.

This letter does not describe a rape. It describes a whining, crazy, dangerous female who wants to be "validated."

Key words:

Quote:“Are you only going to make me hard, or are you going to make me come?” he said in a demanding tone.

It did not sound like a question. I obeyed.

Using a "demanding tone" is not rape.

If this was rape, why weren't the police involved?

Post: #19

Using a "demanding tone" is not rape.

Exactly. If we have dinner together, and you are an obnoxious boor, and when they check comes you look at me and say "You are getting this, right?" If I quail in that moment and pick up the check, I may regret it later. I may be angry and upset that you did that. It may even linger with me and give me a nasty feeling every time I think about it. But you did not rob me.

McCaskill is a former prosecutor? Ugh, that explains so much.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't "fight or flight" instincts kick in? Wouldn't she at least scream for help? She wasn't threatened or anything... Maybe the guy just escalated too quickly and she got scared/nervous. IDK...maybe the guy though she was putting up LMR?


This seems weird to me too, but a consistent element in a lot of accounts of rape is a sort of deer-in-the-headlights phenomenon where the woman just sort of freezes. It may have something to do with the rape-culture propaganda, i.e. when a woman encounters a man who is somewhat assertive, she feels like well, here it comes, he's going to rape me. If I had daughters, I hope I could teach them not to be so passive. You have to remember how unused most women are to any sort of physical struggle or force. What seems easy to us--just shove him off, bite him if you have to, he's a college sophomore, what is he going to do, beat you to death?--may just seem unthinkable to them.

Whatever the reason, it seems to happen often enough that I can't deny it is real.

I don't think you meant this wrong, but just a caution: I'd be careful with the "It's just last minute resistance" line of thinking. I'd hate for anyone reading to get the idea we think there are real no's on the one hand, and LMR on the other...and that if it is "just LMR," it's ok to use force to get past it. Until LMR is overcome--with seduction, not force--it's just as much a no as any other no.

Ironic, isn't it? Here we are on what must be one of the most hated men's forums on the internet, having a careful and sincere discussion about consent. It's a fucking feminist wet dream.

Post: #20

The title of this post is incredibly misleading...even in ironic quotations.

She NEVER refers to the incident as a rape. In fact, her word choice is incredibly precise in calling it sexual assault, attack, sexual violence, physical violence, abuse, etc. NEVER rape or rapist.

We always say that 'regret is not rape' and I think women hate this.

Her entire article suggests that he should be punished for all of the bad feelings she had afterward. The details of her feelings and antidepressants and restless sleep amount to a guilty verdict (in her head).

Women want to write their emotional responses as law. I actually think that a legal system absent of men would codify womens' emotions as legal evidence. It's an interesting thought concept.

On a separate note:

You could generalize that this is not a woman who engenders trust and companionship in others. Don't women (undeservedly) get the benefit of being regarded as caring/loving?

Here's a theory: women raise and lower their status based on the strings that they can pull. The ultimate power is concentrated in female beauty: all a beautiful woman needs to do is post a selfie and make a request; men will come begging to do anything she wants. For less beautiful women, it is some combination of claiming high social status, appeal to white knights, appeal to the masses, etc.- surely these factors combine to get men and other women to act on her behalf. Thus her status is raised higher than the men and women acting on her behalf...

Returning to the article, i get the distinct feeling that she confirms this theory because each part of the story is 1. Her trying to get more attention or 2. Her trying to get a faculty member to do something for her.

Remember that if Harvard were to trigger a national trend, i.e. a national review of legal definitions concerning sexual emotions or sexual state, she would jump out of anonymity and into the limelight faster than wile e. coyote. She would then self-refer as a "women's rights activist" or some such way to declare ownership of the attention-capital she inspired.

Post: #21

Guys, stop being so pesky and logical.

This case obviously has nothing to do with facts. It's about how this girl feels.

(04-01-2014 10:51 PM)Grit Wrote:  Women want to write their emotional responses as law. I actually think that a legal system absent of men would codify womens' emotions as legal evidence. It's an interesting thought concept.

It's a terrifying thought concept and it's where feminists want society to go. Hate speech and sexual assault laws are just the start of the road to feminazism. Feelings above evidence and women above men.

Post: #22

(04-01-2014 03:24 PM)Samseau Wrote:  I already did, almost a year ago:

http://www.returnofkings.com/6886/3-sign...accusation

1. Virtually no evidence of struggle: check.

2. The attacker is invited to the victim’s house OR the victim willingly went to the attacker’s house: check.

3. Authorities are alerted days, weeks, or even months after the rape: nope.

So it's 2/3 signs met here. Smells like bullshit to me. She claimed she got raped in a dorm room. If she had screamed twenty other people would have heard her.

Read that. You are wrong about Strauss-Kahn, though. That case should have gone to trial. DSK walked because of power, money and privilege. The maid reported the assault immediately. She had been working in the hotel for years. Hotel maids don't survive unless they're honest - many opportunities for theft.

This is the timeline: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/20...vents.html

He admitted having sex with her and there was physical and DNA evidence of that - to believe this is a false rape claim requires that you believe that either (1) they negotiated a quick transaction and then she decided to make a false rape claim, all within an hour, or (2) she was so overpowered by DSK's sexual magnetism that she had to fuck him within five minutes of seeing him.

The DA looked for a loophole to let this powerful guy free and found one in the maid's false statements regarding some unrelated immigration matter. In 15 years of criminal practice, I never saw a sexual assault case dismissed before trial because of a problem with the complainant's record. That is usually left for a jury to determine.

If it had been Murray Kahn the tailor from the Lower East Side, no doubt he would have been prosecuted. It was a disgusting roll-over by the Manhattan DA.

Post: #23

(04-01-2014 11:30 PM)Sp5 Wrote:  

(04-01-2014 03:24 PM)Samseau Wrote:  I already did, almost a year ago:

http://www.returnofkings.com/6886/3-sign...accusation

1. Virtually no evidence of struggle: check.

2. The attacker is invited to the victim’s house OR the victim willingly went to the attacker’s house: check.

3. Authorities are alerted days, weeks, or even months after the rape: nope.

So it's 2/3 signs met here. Smells like bullshit to me. She claimed she got raped in a dorm room. If she had screamed twenty other people would have heard her.

Read that. You are wrong about Strauss-Kahn, though. That case should have gone to trial. DSK walked because of power, money and privilege. The maid reported the assault immediately. She had been working in the hotel for years. Hotel maids don't survive unless they're honest - many opportunities for theft.

This is the timeline: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/20...vents.html

He admitted having sex with her and there was physical and DNA evidence of that - to believe this is a false rape claim requires that you believe that either (1) they negotiated a quick transaction and then she decided to make a false rape claim, all within an hour, or (2) she was so overpowered by DSK's sexual magnetism that she had to fuck him within five minutes of seeing him.

The DA looked for a loophole to let this powerful guy free and found one in the maid's false statements regarding some unrelated immigration matter. In 15 years of criminal practice, I never saw a sexual assault case dismissed before trial because of a problem with the complainant's record. That is usually left for a jury to determine.

If it had been Murray Kahn the tailor from the Lower East Side, no doubt he would have been prosecuted. It was a disgusting roll-over by the Manhattan DA.

Nice find. Foolish of me to trust the official story. Guy gets off on technicality... then press releases claim he was found innocent.

Post: #24

(04-02-2014 12:08 AM)Samseau Wrote:  Nice find. Foolish of me to trust the official story. Guy gets off on technicality... then press releases claim he was found innocent.

It's an example of why I'm glad I'm not practicing law any more. It's nauseating the degree to which who you are determines how you are treated.

Post: #25

Havard rape letter is a good band name.