Post: #1

Summary: The author goes into the different implied languages spoken among hierarchies and systems in which power is fluid. He comes up with classifications for the players (Sociopaths, Losers, Clueless), their "currency" (information), and how they exchange or don't exchange that information (4 talking forms).

http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/11/11/the...-gametalk/

It's a very long essay if you'd like to read the other parts, but this part is easily digestible.

Post: #2

That's one of the most educational things I've read in a while.

Post: #3

Fascinating essay, I wonder if so called red pill thinking is just sociopathy applied to the non-corporate world. With our efforts to improve ourselves are we fighting for stakes? Do we learn to speak baby talk to girls and bitch made men?

Post: #4

I posted this article in the Gervais Principle thread a year ago.

You may want to post your thoughts on the Gervais Principle over there.

Post: #5

http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013...-startups/

A good follow-up read.

Post: #6

(03-08-2014 08:15 AM)Peregrine Wrote:  http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013...-startups/

A good follow-up read.

Michael O. Church's series of posts is excellent, a tour de force, but I must warn you that it is 26 posts long!

Post: #7

(03-08-2014 08:21 AM)Icarus Wrote:  

(03-08-2014 08:15 AM)Peregrine Wrote:  http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013...-startups/

A good follow-up read.

Michael O. Church's series of posts is excellent, a tour de force, but I must warn you that it is 26 posts long!

Oh shit, I didn't even notice. Well, I guess I know what I'm doing between workouts today then.

Post: #8

(03-08-2014 08:40 AM)Peregrine Wrote:  Oh shit, I didn't even notice. Well, I guess I know what I'm doing between workouts today then.

Enjoy the reading! Took me a almost a year to read and absorb all the 26 posts in the series. It is some of the most interesting writing I have ever come across. Hope M.O.C. writes a book on it.

Here's the last post of the series:

r- and K-selection in organizations and capitalism (August 2013)

Post: #9

I don't know... Given the depth it goes to it needs better research. I can accept the surface structures but some of the deeper thesis is basically just educated guesses. Early warning signs is that he uses fiction for examples which is puts the material at interesting-to-think-about level.

Post: #10

Icarus/Peregrine : can you give us a summary of the link similar to how i provided one in my post?
I'd like to know the basic outline of this essay. Thank you.

Post: #11

(03-08-2014 11:24 AM)Valhalla Wrote:  Icarus: can you give us a summary of the link similar to how i provided one in my post?

You linked to installment #2 of the Gervais Principle series, I linked to the whole series of 6 installments. I found installments #1 and #6 to be particularly interesting. The complete series has been transformed into an e-book.

Here's the summary from the e-books's Amazon page:

Quote:The complete Internet cult classic series, the Gervais Principle, plus a bonus essay on the movie Office Space and a TV, movie and reading guide for connoisseurs of workplace politics. Written in six parts between 2009 and 2013 by Venkatesh Rao on ribbonfarm.com, and "Slashdotted" twice, this widely acclaimed series examines organizational dynamics through the lens of the NBC show, The Office and offers a comprehensive tragic philosophy of work for the modern world.

Here's a review:

Quote:In the preface, the author writes "I've had people actually tell me that this series served as a sort of red-pill-blue-pill Matrix moment in their careers." I'm one of the people he's referring to.

In 2008, I was an overachieving software guy who had migrated into management. I had found it a difficult transition, to say the least. I kept making what my boss, and his boss, kept calling obvious mistakes. Each mistake I tried to understand, with varying degrees of limited success. Then a friend said, "You should check out this blog, ribbonfarm."

Reading the Gervais series was a crash course in what the author calls "organizational literacy". These essays gave me a detailed framework for understanding the roles one can play in a hierarchy, and how to navigate it with some degree of skill. I was able to turn my manager career around, going from disgrace to respect over the following two years.

Your mileage may vary, of course. But for me, the Gervais Principle was a pivotal document. I can't recommend it highly enough.

Post: #12

Is this lifestyle even worth it?

With game-as-applied-sociopathy, the benefit is to me more enjoyable and immediate. You get good interactions with women that go how you want.

With business-as-applied-sociopathy, it seems like all you get are the tools to be locked in ever-escalating conflict with higher and higher level sociopaths.

Is money and status as Rewarding to you all as the positive relationships with women? To me the life long struggle seems crushing. I would rather put my efforts into building my own business to be on top of or developing hustles to opt-out of this lifestyle. Maybe thats just me.

People who are succesful in office politics, after years and years of this, do you find it actually is rewarding or pays off? Or do you just find your life full of sociopaths and your time spent thinking of how to out maneuver them?

Post: #13

Nudge nudge wink wink everybody's in on it but you sucker. Yeah, a great world to inhabit. Even my non-college attending mom had a better idea:


"You get more flies with honey than you do with vinegar."

Except with sociopaths and religious extremists ( the insane). I see the solution more as getting out from being under the authority of these if you have the ability, perhaps by starting your own business as the above poster advocates, rather than degrading yourself by being part of the problem.

It's true one is sometimes trapped under them, but you only have to love big brother temporarily.

Who would you yourself want to associate with?

Post: #14

"You get more flies with honey than vinnegar"

Except a psychopath realizes you have honey and figures out how to get it from you.

There are people who respond to kindness with kindness, and people who see kindness as an opening to take advantage of you.

I just want to surround myself with positive people so we can build each other up. In the USA this seems nearly impossible, psycopathy is so interwoven into the national character at this point...

Post: #15

sonsowey,

I have a relatively good experience with business-as-applied-sociopathy as you put it.... In some ways, i am guilty of those charges myself.... as you can clearly see from this post of mine on how i game such system. What may not be apparent in those posts is that i also detest it.

I wish we are in a world where everything is based on pure competence, unfortunately, that is not the reality of our lives.....

You either have power or you suffer at the hand of those who do...it is that simple. there aren't really any middle ground between these two polar opposites...even sadly, you cannot really opt out of the game unless you live as a hermit in greenland or start your own business(which isnt a total guarantee)....

So, when you ask, is this life even worth it? the question is, "what are the alternatives?" especially, when you dont already have your own business setup... until you do, you have to pay your dues.

Everything i wrote in that thread: /thread-25624-...#pid486437 .I have had to learn it the hardway. Life isnt fair. ...the only question that remains is: what are you going to do?

That is why i work like a maniac on my own business-- to make it big enough to say fuck you to corporate workplace.

The attacks will come at you in various forms... just because somebody is a white knights doesnt mean they dont know how to play the game. Here is my experience with white knights in the workplace: /thread-29705-...#pid570827

Besides, if i am going to be manipulative... it should be to my own personal benefits, and that of my family and close personal friends, NOT IN THE service of somebody that is paying me X while charging the client 2x....all the while, myself and others plot and strategizes on how to cut each other's throat. while the big boss sits and enjoy life. fuck that noise!

I have tier levels.

Firstly, there are people that i associate with in a cold-blooded calculation because i want to use them. plain and simple. If they dish it back at me, then fair is fair. I can take my own medicine.

Secondly, there are others that are simply good acquiantances,... those have their places in my life too..

and thirdly, there is the special category: these are people that are genuinely my friends. the true bonafides. my inner circle. my sanctim santorum, if you may. It literally takes years and special qualities to qualify for this status. i have to have seen how they perform and act towards all sorts of people and in different sorts of situations. because you cannot place too much trust in friends....

(03-08-2014 03:01 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  ..... There are people who respond to kindness with kindness, and people who see kindness as an opening to take advantage of you.

Indeed. Not just people...there are cultures/sub-cultures who see kindness as weakness. This leads to one of my primary rules: a person only have one shot with me: if i approach them with respect, kindness, humility and generosity, and their response was cold, cocky, dismissive, and arrogant or exploitative. i write them off completely, never to change my mind again. Life is too short to waste on people that do not add value to your life. There are billions of people on this planet; trust me, you can absolutely afford to be really picky.

regards,

Nemencine

Post: #16

(03-08-2014 09:52 PM)Nemencine Wrote:  I have a relatively good experience with business-as-applied-sociopathy as you put it (...) What may not be apparent in those posts is that i also detest it. I wish we are in a world where everything is based on pure competence, unfortunately, that is not the reality of our lives..... You either have power or you suffer at the hand of those who do...it is that simple. there aren't really any middle ground between these two polar opposites...even sadly, you cannot really opt out of the game unless you live as a hermit in greenland or start your own business

I wish I had read your post some 10 years ago. It would have made all the difference.

Post: #17

My bad I was referencing the MOC link. I was on my phone so it's difficult to quote..

Post: #18

(03-09-2014 04:42 AM)Valhalla Wrote:  My bad I was referencing the MOC link.

It's hard to summarize a series of 26 posts that took some 6 months to write.

Michael essentially believes that the Silly Con Valley is a post-modern corporation in which the venture capitalists are the Sociopaths, where the Clueless startup CEO's are little more than glorified project managers with gigantic egos, and that there are increasingly less losers in the startup ecosystem (e.g., "lean startup"). In other words, Silly Con Valley is a world without Losers, but with plenty of actual losers.

He also believes that this model is unsustainable, since almost no one wins. The Clueless believe that working 90-hour-weeks for a few years at some tech startup will buy them the ability to be project managers or founders in the future. However, most startups fail, and the promises that were made become as worthless as the paper on which the now worthless stock options are printed.

Michael believes in slower growth "lifestyle businesses", growing organically, with no VC funding, which would hopefully allow the founders to be actual owners and stop worrying about venture capitalists extorting them under the threat of destroying their reputations.

Post: #19

(03-08-2014 03:01 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  "You get more flies with honey than vinnegar"

Except a psychopath realizes you have honey and figures out how to get it from you.

There are people who respond to kindness with kindness, and people who see kindness as an opening to take advantage of you.

I just want to surround myself with positive people so we can build each other up. In the USA this seems nearly impossible, psycopathy is so interwoven into the national character at this point...

I fully agree with this, but I've been self employed in a competitive online biz for a couple of years and I've seen plenty of people make it big by being outright scammers and sociopaths. Yeah, so maybe they got exposed on national television or had their name dragged through the mud for a couple of weeks, but they're now living in Dubai or similar with millions in their bank account and somehow I don't see their bad rep stop them getting women.

On the other hand, there are cool people out there who reciprocate kindness and honesty in kind in business and they are quite numerous as digital nomads with online businesses. I get along very well with almost everyone I meet who travels and runs an online business.

Corporations though are another beast. In large corporations, office politics becomes as important as competence and merit. I can't work for such an outfit.

If you want to stay away from sociopathy and still have opportunity for making lots of money, I suggest joining a startup.

Post: #20

Nemencine,

I am guessing you live in the U.S. right?

You ask "what are the alternatives?"

Union jobs, for one. Thats my current route, though we will see how it plays out long term.

Post: #21

(03-09-2014 11:28 AM)berserk Wrote:  If you want to stay away from sociopathy and still have opportunity for making lots of money, I suggest joining a startup.

There are good startups and bad startups. Bad startups can be even worse than the Big Corp.

Post: #22

Quote:People who are succesful in office politics, after years and years of this, do you find it actually is rewarding or pays off? Or do you just find your life full of sociopaths and your time spent thinking of how to out maneuver them?

In a way, I do enjoy it. It's like human chess and I'm good at it. And you don't have to backstab anyone. If you play a tight game, your detractor will eventually hang themselves.

Of course, you'll have your share of blunders too. Just analyze, learn from the mistake, respect game, and keep truckin'.

Post: #23

(03-09-2014 01:00 PM)Icarus Wrote:  

(03-09-2014 11:28 AM)berserk Wrote:  If you want to stay away from sociopathy and still have opportunity for making lots of money, I suggest joining a startup.

There are good startups and bad startups. Bad startups can be even worse than the Big Corp.

Agreed. Say what you will about big corporations, but they have processes in place to mitigate the damage of immature/emotionally damaged bosses. I've never worked for a startup, but I did work for a small company. The lack of professionalism, in-fighting, and downright abuse was beyond belief. And the owner (one person) was a classic narcissist/megalomaniac and loved every second of it.

Post: #24

I've been trying to get in on some startup work...Anyone have any tips on 'reading' startups, so to say, to figure out if they have a positive work culture or want to work you to the bone for 'the good of the startup'? My experiences have been very hit or miss

Post: #25

(03-08-2014 08:21 AM)Icarus Wrote:  

(03-08-2014 08:15 AM)Peregrine Wrote:  http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013...-startups/

A good follow-up read.

Michael O. Church's series of posts is excellent, a tour de force, but I must warn you that it is 26 posts long!

You're not kidding. I started reading Mr. Church's blog, and I think I got through several months worth of his writings before realizing that I have to block out several hours just to read his blog. And more time after that to think about what I read.

Mr. Church is in some respects too good of a blogger about the corporate world, because the truths he's telling are so hard to digest, and his explanations, while correct, are so complex that it might turn off all but dedicated readers.

I would compare it in many respects to reading some of the more complex red pill writers, through there are some comments in the blog that suggest that the author would not care for the comparison.