Post: #1

Quote:Uganda's leader has signed into law a bill toughening penalties for gay people but without a clause criminalising those who do not report them.

It includes life sentences for gay sex and same-sex marriage, but a proposed sentence of up to 14 years for first-time offenders has been removed.

US President Barack Obama had cautioned the bill would be a backward step.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-26320102

OK. First off, considering what I know about it already, if I investigated further I very much doubt I would support this Ugandan bill. I'd be more likely to support something like the Russian bill that people in the West have intentionally misrepresented as being "anti-gay". But this post isn't about me.

It's fascinating, but not unexpected, that some of the strongest push-back against the current malaise that is Western Liberalism (Liberal in name but not practice IMO) comes from the 3rd world, especially Africa. It looks like the world is on a collision course, with many Western nations obsessed with nonsense like the minutia of gay and gender issues that really have no practical effect on the world aside from riling people up for purposes of electoral benefit (Political masturbation, if you will), and the rest of the world who want nothing to do with that noise. Or at least if they do, they are on the other side...

A lot of people have noted that there is very little to no acceptance of "out" homosexuality in Africa. "Anti gay" laws are an easy domestic political win for people like Musuveni, since he can project himself as someone who protects his people from the corrupt West/Imperialists.

My question to the board members, and I have to say especially black Americans, is this: What are your thoughts on the fact that the left in the West, especially America, pretty much takes for granted that you are on-board with whatever social cause they have decided to make the "cause du jour"? My experience in Africa itself is that a lot of black people are very socially conservative, and their values/reality would not be even remotely served by left leaning Western political parties and organisations. In the US this is obviously true for many people as well.

Post: #2

I'm not anti-gay, or pro-gay.

I don't believe in persecuting gay people, and I don't believe in promoting them either.

Everybody has to live by the same rules. Don't single out a group and restrict their rights, but to put them on a pedestal and say that everyone should be like them either.

Post: #3

Relevant video:

Post: #4

Bad Hussar Wrote:My question to the board members, and I have to say especially black Americans, is this: What are your thoughts on the fact that the left in the West, especially America, pretty much takes for granted that you are on-board with whatever social cause they have decided to make the "cause du jour"? My experience in Africa itself is that a lot of black people are very socially conservative, and their values/reality would not be even remotely served by left leaning Western political parties and organisations. In the US this is obviously true for many people as well.

Au contraire, the left in Canada is slowly becoming the party of government workers and liberal white inner city yuppies and hippies. The right is becoming the party of the central provinces, business leaders, and minorities in the large urban centres.

This is an interesting take on the conservatives in Canada.

Quote:In just a decade, Mr Kenney increased his party’s “visible minorities” voter base from 9 per cent in 2000 to 31 per cent in the 2011 election. Remarkably, the Conservatives enjoyed more support from voters born outside Canada in the last election – 42 per cent – than they polled with the electorate overall.

“I keep telling our caucus and the cabinet that immigrants are our new base.”

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9310918c-979e-...z2uGuSOhFO

The core of the support doesn't come necessarily from social conservatism, but from economic betterment. Conservatives in Canada, (at least appear to) better the economic lot of immigrants by doing something that seems to elude the left leaning parties all across the West; tearing down barriers of entry by de-regulating, removing red tape, and getting out of the way.

The USA is a special case because it seems American Race relations are still rocky, specifically between blacks and whites. In the US playing electorate politics is a game of substitution of electorates, not simple addition.

Similar to France a few years ago. Sarkozy wooed the minorities by promising deregulation, this means lower barriers of entry for the outsiders (read; black and arab frenchmen). It was all fine and dandy, until a good portion of his base ran off to the National Front in the consequent election (which is oddly enough is a socialist, borderline communist party with nativist views on race).

Sarkozy tried to get them back with promises of kicking out Gypsies from Romania and Bulgaria (they can't throw out the blacks and Arabs because they're citizens, many 3rd of 4th generation). The damage was already done, he lost both the minority vote, and the nativist vote. He made the classic mistake of fiddling with social policy, nativist populism, and economic issues all at once. He should have concentrated on economics solely.

Gay-rights, were never an issue in the past. There was always a march against the old order of strict social conservatism and so called purity.

The resistance is growing now because of disfranchisement with shrinking of the economic pie, and the constriction of the middle class wealth.

If you really brake it down all the tidbits and talking points of contention are nothing more than minor things in the greater political scheme.

Gay-Rights: this doesn't actually change the life of the average non gay person all that much. Gays making out may be gross but it certainly isn't going to make a difference in any important decisions in my life.

Multiculturalism: The west has been multicultural for over 2500 years. This isn't going to change because it might irritate a few people. How is being anti multicultural going to change America, Canada, or Brazil? It may shift race relations but they're more shaped by the business environment than anything else. Somebody forgot to tell Mr Ford in 1915 that segregation was still in effect. He was more interested in profit margins.

Loss of masculinity: this is really a product of technological advancement. Japan hasn't had any real feminist, gay rights, or multicultural (multiracial movements) yet too many men there are humping pillows and masturbating to virtual companions.

The fundamental issues here are and always will be economic.

What does this have to do with blacks and gay rights?

Christian Africans are overwhelmingly evangelical. Uganda is a corrupt country with fast economic growth. What an easy way to put a veil over people's eyes than to bring up a controversial but rather inconsequential issue that might make them forget for a minute that the country's parliament members are some of the wealthiest lawmakers in the world, ruling some of the poorest people in the world.

What a better time to talk about gays, than when blatant government racketeering, corrupt lobbying, and corporate cronyism is making an 16th century comeback.


PS: Uganda might face sanctions for this. This seems to be the general among western politicians. So they may not quite get away with this because they're a predominatly black country just yet.

PPS: Russia isn't a wholly white country either, it's around 80% white Russian. The rest is a hodgepodge of people from the caucus, asians, and many other small ethnic groups.

Post: #5

(02-24-2014 03:09 PM)soup Wrote:  Everybody has to live by the same rules. Don't single out a group and restrict their rights, but to put them on a pedestal and say that everyone should be like them either.

If only it could be so simple...

I'm willing to guess that since Uganda is a third-world shithole with big problems in almost every area and not a major international player/'threat to the American way of life' that this won't become a hot topic with the young, white liberal crowd like 'Putin hates gays!' did.

I'm not black, but if I was I'd probably be annoyed that a bunch of people who have never suffered in their lives were trying to enlist me into a cause that they have absolutely no frame of reference for and can't relate to. I've never been the type to rally around geopolitical concerns that in no way concern me.

Post: #6

What's funny is that the Mainstream Media will hardly write about this but continue hammering Russia and portraying it as ground zero for a gay holocaust. It's okay for Muslim and Black countries to execute homosexuals and it's not okay for White countries to prevent Gay propaganda (homosexuality isn't illegal in Russia). Whites aren't allowed to protect their societies from homos or violent immigrants, apparently. Africa is for Africans. Asia is for Asians. White Countries = for everyone!

Post: #7

Funny that Uganda ranks among the top of the list in Googling gay porn.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/15...04213.html

Post: #8

^^^ Djemba Djemba

Very interesting take. I agree that these sort of issues are often raised to pull the wool over peoples eyes. And you choose the issue that will pull it down the furthest.

I didn't know that the conservatives in Canada had such strong immigrant support, but thinking about it it is not really surprising. I remember when living in Vancouver that a lot of white liberals were complaining that the new Chinese immigrants were not behaving as they wished them too. They were too conservative, both economically and socially, what with starting businesses and working hard rather than trying desperately to get a government job, and living in extended families rather than in hippy communes.

I guess when I posed my question I was thinking mostly about the US, where I really do think that more than 50% of black people have no true political home. A socially or economically conservative black American really can't be represented by the Democratic party in that country, and it appears that it is near impossible to be a "Black Republican". a white person can easily choose between the two.

I not only agree that the current "gay rights" obsession in the West is of little or no consequence to heterosexual people, but I also think it is of barely any more consequence to gay and lesbian people. In fact I think "political" homosexuality is actually bad news for them in the long term. Sometimes it's better to fly under the radar, rather than have your issues aired for all to see. The problem with gay issues being used for political purposes is that no matter how sure you are that your view is the "right" view there will be around an equal number of people who have the opposite view. Even if you think your side calls the shots now things always change and tomorrow the "other" side is calling the shots and is upset you were used against them previously. Much better to not get involved at all if you can help it. Exposing yourself for stupid stuff like complaining about non-existing bias in laws half a world away in Russia, for example. Just madness.

Post: #9

I wouldn't consider myself anti-gay nor do i have strong religious beliefs against homosexuality, however i do have a problem with the in your face promotion of gay stereotypes in media.
I've worked within the fashion industry in the past. There was a considerable amount of gay males...i never had a problem because they didn't behave in such a manner that would draw negative attention.

I think everyone deserves to life their life according to their own beliefs as long as it doesn't infringe on someone else's life.

I've always maintained that coming out is a choice and you don't need to subject yourself to a hostile environment and force people to accept you.

I'm black. I can't hide it. I've been treated differently (read badly) in my life based solely on my skin colour.

I wonder if gay people were treated as badly a black people were during and before the civil rights movement would they be so gung-ho about being "out and proud".
My answer is i highly doubt it.

Post: #10

I see nothing wrong with forbidding gay propoganda ie celebrating one's desire to fuck dudes up their asses. Where's my parade? I like banging chicks up their asses.

Post: #11

Uganda exposes American hypocrisy. Compared to Russia the Ugandan law is leagues ahead in its intensity. Strait up the Russian law was never "Anti-gay" to begin with, as sexual orientation was never worded in the law, not was any references to sodomy, etc. So Uganda strait up bans the shit outright yet the media says nothing. Interesting to note is that many USA States still have sodomy illegal on the books and this isn't even the case of Russia. Uganda is a crony ally of America and AFRICOM in that region Africa and of course the USA will say nothing.

With all that is going on in Ukraine it's no surprise that now Anti-Russian sentiments are as high in America since the Cold War ended. All of this was a smear campaign to provide America cover if it indeed does the stupid thing and try to step to Russia in the eastern block of Ukraine.

People and counties can do whatever the fuck they want to. Just make sure the crony politicians whom implement these laws are subject to them also. If Minister whatever his name may be of the Ugandan Government gets caught with his pants down with a dude then let him face the same punishment he pushed into law.

Post: #12

Personally, I share Soup's belief: I don't much care about guys fucking guys, but it's not a protected class.

I remember when CA had their Proposition 8 vote that black voters overwhelmingly supported prop 8, which really puzzled liberals. I remember something on National Propaganda Radio where they were openly debating why. IIRC, the consensus was it was the churches to blame. Mmm hmm...

Kosko, yeah, I see that too that anti-Russian sentiment is high. A co-worker, who is conservative in most every regard, was going off on the Ukranian situation the other day. The funny thing Americans still don't see is that nothing pisses the rest of the world off than us coming in on a moral high horse trying to tell other countries how to run their show.

Post: #13

This story is ridiculous. When was the last time you saw Uganda of all places make headlines in the West?

Do you see African countries - the vast majority of which outlaw abortion - refusing to cooperate with countries like the US where abortion is legal?

No. Most countries understand and respect that other nations and cultures have unique social norms that must be accepted.

Obama's National Security Adviser actually phoned Uganda's President prior to his signing the bill to discuss it. How absurd is that?

For Ugandan President Museveni, who has been ruling Uganda for more than two decades now, the political benefits of approving this law - which is widely popular throughout the country - were too tempting to resist.

Despite his iron-fisted rule, it's unlikely he would have survived the political backlash if he went against the will of the people on this issue.

Interestingly, he actually commissioned scientists to study the nature of homosexuality before deciding whether he would sign the bill. Because scientists couldn't identify a "gay gene" responsible for homosexuality, he came to the conclusion that it's nurture rather than nature that explains homosexuality. Therefore, he found the bill an appropriate course of action to help "cure" or at least "deter" homosexual behavior.

Uganda, like many African countries, is a fairly conservative place in social terms. There's also a large evangelical Christian population that receives strong support from evangelical churches here in America. For a time, it was ground zero for the American evangelical community's effort to stamp out homosexuality wherever it had the influence to do so.

Post: #14

Post: #15

Yoweri Museveni, this guy is the man:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/24/world/afri...homepage-t

Post: #16

(02-24-2014 03:38 PM)Menace Wrote:  Relevant video:

Hilarious!

Post: #17

The whole gay thing is very very political. They support the system and I travelled all over the Uk and nearly every government worker I stayed with male or female was gay.
British women are fag-hags also. So older woman picks me up in sports car. I assumed sex is on the menu but not the way I was imagining . She brought me to a house to drink with two guys who were government workers and fairly senior, then she revealed to me that ,guess what, I was staying there in that house that night and that the two were gays. So I kind of put the brake on the whiskey and put a chair against the door for the night.
I also stayed with connected BBC people.

I had an irish girl walk out on me when i called her a fag-hag. I won't tolerate women who tell me about their gay friends.

Much happier sleeping outside in countries where the guys just want to rob me and not grab my balls.

Also gay societies are out to make heterosexuality more or less illegal while making gayness more prevalent. there is an agenda. Check out operation Yew Tree in England. The cop running it also fitted a guy up Jill Dando killing leading many to think Dando was killed as she found out something about a pedo ring high up involving Cliff Richard and Esther Rantzen perhaps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLljfBN6-dU

Ben fellows.

So what is happening there is guys who were with teenage girls are up in court , hetero sex demonised. While actual pedos with connections who abused kids are above the law. Jimmy Savile was protected by police while he was alive.

Putin won't send Russian kids to countries with "gay marriage" because basically that practice is state sponsored pedophilia and the fix is in so media is hardly going to report on things that happen in states where homophobia is thought crime. America women go bizerk when I point out such things. They are fag-hags. Women use favourtism towards gays as a way of bullying straight guys.

The West is becoming the first homosexual totalitarian society.

Also if you raw dog women who are fag-hags you are exposing yourself to greater risk of disease (something not talked about because of PC). No gays in eastern europe so cleaner women as a result.

So another reason western women to be avoided.

Post: #18

(02-24-2014 03:38 PM)Menace Wrote:  Relevant video:

Call me crazy but I get the feeling that guy looks at a LOT of gay porn.

Post: #19

That video is beyond retarded.

Post: #20

(02-25-2014 01:46 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  Call me crazy but I get the feeling that guy looks at a LOT of gay porn.

I figured as much too, which is weird. How can you find gay people disgusting yet be able to watch gay porn?

There's no way I could look at gay porn even for second without being repulsed. Yet this supposed anti-gay activist seems to have no problem analyzing and presenting gay pornography before audiences.

Post: #21

(02-24-2014 04:18 PM)Bad Hussar Wrote:  ^^^ Djemba Djemba

Very interesting take. I agree that these sort of issues are often raised to pull the wool over peoples eyes. And you choose the issue that will pull it down the furthest.

I didn't know that the conservatives in Canada had such strong immigrant support, but thinking about it it is not really surprising. I remember when living in Vancouver that a lot of white liberals were complaining that the new Chinese immigrants were not behaving as they wished them too. They were too conservative, both economically and socially, what with starting businesses and working hard rather than trying desperately to get a government job, and living in extended families rather than in hippy communes.

It's always fun watching these so called "tolerant" liberals in Vancouver preach about inclusiveness and multiculturalism yet become total sinophobes towards Asians blaming them for a high cost of living and trying to promote xenophobic property laws. Go to the suburbs where you find conservatives and you see them accept them for their hard work and economic productivity, they just tend to use more openly racist words in public non pc.

Who is worse? The ones masquerading as tolerant seeking racist policies or the non-pc ones that don't seek such policies.

Post: #22

People are going to end up dying over this crap.

http://m.smh.com.au/world/ugandan-newspa...hvdsp.html

The last portion also mentions a crack down on pornography and provocative dress.

American style evangelical Christianity is blowing up there. In a way it's a shame. While the west is abandoning religion and moving towards reason and secular, liberal (in the freedom sense, not political sense) humanism, black minds are essentially being colonized from a far by white evangelicals trying to shape Africa the way they want it to be. And the sad thing is they are buying it.

Post: #23

(02-25-2014 03:33 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  People are going to end up dying over this crap.

http://m.smh.com.au/world/ugandan-newspa...hvdsp.html

The last portion also mentions a crack down on pornography and provocative dress.

American style evangelical Christianity is blowing up there. In a way it's a shame. While the west is abandoning religion and moving towards reason and secular, liberal (in the freedom sense, not political sense) humanism, black minds are essentially being colonized from a far by white evangelicals trying to shape Africa the way they want it to be. And the sad thing is they are buying it.

Several African countries have been successful in significantly lowering HIV infection rates precisely because they've pushed Christian monogamous marriages and morality.

Not too sure what's so great Western style "humanism." The west is economically and morally in rapid decline. Half of all births are illegitimate. Tons of people on welfare and growing. I know it's good out there for the players, but that's about it. Tons of children are growing up fucked up.

Post: #24

(02-25-2014 04:05 PM)megatron Wrote:  

(02-25-2014 03:33 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  People are going to end up dying over this crap.

http://m.smh.com.au/world/ugandan-newspa...hvdsp.html

The last portion also mentions a crack down on pornography and provocative dress.

American style evangelical Christianity is blowing up there. In a way it's a shame. While the west is abandoning religion and moving towards reason and secular, liberal (in the freedom sense, not political sense) humanism, black minds are essentially being colonized from a far by white evangelicals trying to shape Africa the way they want it to be. And the sad thing is they are buying it.

Several African countries have been successful in significantly lowering HIV infection rates precisely because they've pushed Christian monogamous marriages and morality.

Not too sure what's so great Western style "humanism." The west is economically and morally in rapid decline. Half of all births are illegitimate. Tons of people on welfare and growing. I know it's good out there for the players, but that's about it. Tons of children are growing up fucked up.

I see your point, but is government imposed fascism the answer? Government telling people what they can do in their bedroom and what they can look at on the internet? I'll pass. And I don't think the choice is between authoritarianism and liberal social decay. There's some reasonable ground in the middle.

Plus did you read the article? Why are newspapers posting names and addresses of people suspected of being gay? So that angry mobs will kill them? Of course that's the reason. That's a pretty fucked up society. I would not want to be any kind of minority living in a place like that. But that's also what they did to ethnic minorities under Idi Amin. So no surprise there I guess.

Post: #25

(02-25-2014 04:40 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(02-25-2014 04:05 PM)megatron Wrote:  

(02-25-2014 03:33 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  People are going to end up dying over this crap.

http://m.smh.com.au/world/ugandan-newspa...hvdsp.html

The last portion also mentions a crack down on pornography and provocative dress.

American style evangelical Christianity is blowing up there. In a way it's a shame. While the west is abandoning religion and moving towards reason and secular, liberal (in the freedom sense, not political sense) humanism, black minds are essentially being colonized from a far by white evangelicals trying to shape Africa the way they want it to be. And the sad thing is they are buying it.

Several African countries have been successful in significantly lowering HIV infection rates precisely because they've pushed Christian monogamous marriages and morality.

Not too sure what's so great Western style "humanism." The west is economically and morally in rapid decline. Half of all births are illegitimate. Tons of people on welfare and growing. I know it's good out there for the players, but that's about it. Tons of children are growing up fucked up.

I see your point, but is government imposed fascism the answer? Government telling people what they can do in their bedroom and what they can look at on the internet? I'll pass. And I don't think the choice is between authoritarianism and liberal social decay. There's some reasonable ground in the middle.

Plus did you read the article? Why are newspapers posting names and addresses of people suspected of being gay? So that angry mobs will kill them? Of course that's the reason. That's a pretty fucked up society. I would not want to be any kind of minority living in a place like that. But that's also what they did to ethnic minorities under Idi Amin. So no surprise there I guess.

I'm not defending this new law, although it would only help curb high HIV rates. I'm just saying abandoning religion for socialist, nanny state "humanism" isn't all peaches and cream.