Post: #1

I was reading a book about the airline industry - and it mentioned that the starting salary for pilots isn't much above what the minimum wage is here here in the UK.

Anyway - I have checked out YouTube to see what I can find. And I am really surprised to see how poorly paid airplane pilots are these days.

Remember the pilot who safely ditched his plane in the Hudson river? Well he is featured in the clip below complaining about how much the salaries of pilots has been cut. Along with the testimonials of alot other pilots as well.





A friend of mine from school went to America to become an airplane pilot. And I lost contact with him. But in my mind I always imagined he would be pulling down a big wage in that profession. Now I am not sure what to think.

Do any of you know if the situation really is this bad for pilots these days? I am surprised this isn't reported on more. Since being a pilot always seemed like a guaranteed route to the upper-middle classes.

Post: #2

(01-12-2014 07:47 PM)cardguy Wrote:  I was reading a book about the airline industry - and it mentioned that the starting salary for pilots isn't much above what the minimum wage is here here in the UK.

Anyway - I have checked out YouTube to see what I can find. And I am really surprised to see how poorly paid airplane pilots are these days.

Remember the pilot who safely ditched his plane in the Hudson river? Well he is featured in the clip below complaining about how much the salaries of pilots has been cut.





A friend of mine from school went to America to become an airplane pilot. And I lost contact with him. But in my mind I always imagined he would be pulling down a big wage in that profession. Now I am not sure what to think.

Do any of you know if the situation really is this bad for pilots these days? I am surprised this isn't reported on more. Since being a pilot always seemed like a guaranteed route to the upper-middle classes.

I can speak to this since I deal with a LOT of pilots both airline and private charter- what is called "Part 135 ops"-both through work since I travel an obscene amount for work both on scheduled and charter flights and through social circles as an avocational pilot myself.

It certainly doesn't start getting livable until you get out of the regional airlines. A lot of the smaller aircraft are being flown by pilots who make less than the manager at your local McDonalds. One of my friends started a couple of years ago with one of the regional operations for a whopping $20,000 a year. He said that was the highest offer he received as a newly minted commercial pilot. Once you get into the transoceanic routes on the bigger jets or into management, you are normally making pretty damn good money.

Post: #3

Newbies staring fresh with zero flight hours have to work as a CFI/accumulate hours while gaining additional tiers of flight licenses, which costs many tens (hundreds in many cases) of thousands of dollars in aircraft rental, flight instructor hours, and all associated costs. If they're fortunate enough to get picked up at a regional airline like Great Lakes or Horizon or Eagle or Ameriflight, you get paid essentially rock bottom dollars to get trained out of cold roach motels in the midwest and schlep folks out in the boonies with the Beech 1900 and other small aircraft with <25 seats. IF you're fortunate enough afterwards and gain a couple years of experience, a mainline carrier might give you a chance to earn more than 30k-40k a year.

If you're a 15 year vet at UPS or United, you can pull down $275k a year. Don't count on that anytime soon though if you're interested, it's a hard life.

Post: #4

$20k seems insanely low. I went to glassdoor.com which I consider the best site for salaries and the national average for a pilot is $130k overall. It does have regionals averaging $50k.

As cool as it might seem, a very boring job IMO. Very boring except for landing which is probably stressful.

Post: #5

Not sure if capitalism is to blame here. From what I understand, the airlines are dominated by pilot's unions who mandate high pay for senior pilots and low pay for junior pilots, much like unions in many other industries. Can't speak to Sully's circumstances though.

Post: #6

(01-12-2014 07:59 PM)_DC_ Wrote:  $20k seems insanely low. I went to glassdoor.com which I consider the best site for salaries and the national average for a pilot is $130k overall. It does have regionals averaging $50k.

As cool as it might seem, a very boring job IMO. Very boring except for landing which is probably stressful.

Yeah, don't look at the average (everyone added together and then divided by the number of folks) which is skewed by the extremes (statistically called "outliers"). What you want to find is the modal salary which is less infrequently reported because it is lower than the mean (average) and also because most people, due to poor education, think it is the same thing as "average". The mode is the most frequent salary in a population.

Post: #7

Post: #8

I used to have a neighbor who was a pilot he transported cargo internationally if I recall. He didn't seem to be making much money but maybe he kept it secret. Commercial pilots may become a thing of the past if they get expensive seeing how military drones are doing so well a pilot on board almost seems archaic.

Post: #9

(01-12-2014 08:05 PM)basilransom Wrote:  Not sure if capitalism is to blame here. From what I understand, the airlines are dominated by pilot's unions who mandate high pay for senior pilots and low pay for junior pilots, much like unions in many other industries. Can't speak to Sully's circumstances though.

The key issue is trying to keep fare low. This is one of those areas where the deregulation of the airline industry has come back to bite us. You have mandated costs for frequent maintenance and other fixed costs. One of the few ways you can cut costs other than removing the niceties of flying (food, drinks, pillows, etc) is to drop salaries. This is one of those cases where people will take a shitty lifestyle and low pay to fulfill their dream...in this case of being a pilot. Then again, I can't say much. Until the past year or two, I was more or less a volunteer for my own job due to my low salary as I got the company up and running but that has changed and now I make more than both of my parents combined.

If anything, the unions would- as they have in most industries (auto industry anyone?)- drive the salaries for everyone up.

Post: #10

(01-12-2014 08:13 PM)Jackreacher Wrote:  I used to have a neighbor who was a pilot he transported cargo internationally if I recall. He didn't seem to be making much money but maybe he kept it secret. Commercial pilots may become a thing of the past if they get expensive seeing how military drones are doing so well a pilot on board almost seems archaic.

Even drones still have a pilot on the ground. As someone who is pretty up to speed on the aviation side of things, I don't think we will see airline flights being handled remotely. Hell, most of the schemes I have heard about using drones are about as cheesy as suggesting that we will all see Jetsons-style flying cars in our lifetimes. It's one of those "In the future we will...." things that I don't believe will live up to the hype.

In fact, about the first time one of the new era drones gets in the way of a passenger flight and causes a crash, you'll see them be done away with pretty quickly outside of military applications.

Post: #11

(01-12-2014 08:12 PM)Cr33pin Wrote:  

Pretty accurate except for the "rusty death traps" part and that there are no 18 hour shifts (at least on paper. ). LOL

Post: #12

international, it was actually the median that was listed, so,a typo. I'm an engineer, but thanks for the reeducation of a median vs an average from highschool.

Post: #13

(01-12-2014 08:20 PM)internationalscientist45 Wrote:  

(01-12-2014 08:13 PM)Jackreacher Wrote:  I used to have a neighbor who was a pilot he transported cargo internationally if I recall. He didn't seem to be making much money but maybe he kept it secret. Commercial pilots may become a thing of the past if they get expensive seeing how military drones are doing so well a pilot on board almost seems archaic.

Even drones still have a pilot on the ground. As someone who is pretty up to speed on the aviation side of things, I don't think we will see airline flights being handled remotely. Hell, most of the schemes I have heard about using drones are about as cheesy as suggesting that we will all see Jetsons-style flying cars in our lifetimes. It's one of those "In the future we will...." things that I don't believe will live up to the hype.

In fact, about the first time one of the new era drones gets in the way of a passenger flight and causes a crash, you'll see them be done away with pretty quickly outside of military applications.

Good point, there is something about having the pilot on board, crash the plane and it's his ass on the line too.

Post: #14

The airline industry will pick up in the next 10 years, and there will be a shortage of pilots available.

Post: #15

they've been running the pilot shortage right around the corner line for decades, it ain't true. the old time legacy guys made great money and only worked a few days a month, that is over never to return. top airline guys do OK but when you figure in the dues/odds to get the job all the stupid little medical things that can end your career it just isn't a good path to follow. flying for fun is great if you are inclined go for it.

Post: #16

(01-12-2014 08:22 PM)internationalscientist45 Wrote:  

(01-12-2014 08:12 PM)Cr33pin Wrote:  

Pretty accurate except for the "rusty death traps" part and that there are no 18 hour shifts (at least on paper. ). LOL

Maybe he's a pilot on a Russian airline?

Post: #17

(01-12-2014 07:47 PM)cardguy Wrote:  I am really surprised to see how poorly paid airplane pilots are these days.

Median salary is $98,410 a year

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/transportation-an...pilots.htm

Post: #18

(01-12-2014 10:04 PM)JayMillz Wrote:  

(01-12-2014 07:47 PM)cardguy Wrote:  I am really surprised to see how poorly paid airplane pilots are these days.

Median salary is $98,410 a year

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/transportation-an...pilots.htm

That's not much considering that they're responsible for thousands of passenger's lives every day. A manager at Inn 'n' Out burger makes $120k a year.

Post: #19

(01-12-2014 10:08 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(01-12-2014 10:04 PM)JayMillz Wrote:  

(01-12-2014 07:47 PM)cardguy Wrote:  I am really surprised to see how poorly paid airplane pilots are these days.

Median salary is $98,410 a year

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/transportation-an...pilots.htm

That's not much considering that they're responsible for thousands of passenger's lives every day. A manager at Inn 'n' Out burger makes $120k a year.

Food Service Managers median salary is $47,960 per year

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Management/Food-s...nagers.htm

Post: #20

(01-12-2014 10:12 PM)JayMillz Wrote:  

(01-12-2014 10:08 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(01-12-2014 10:04 PM)JayMillz Wrote:  

(01-12-2014 07:47 PM)cardguy Wrote:  I am really surprised to see how poorly paid airplane pilots are these days.

Median salary is $98,410 a year

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/transportation-an...pilots.htm

That's not much considering that they're responsible for thousands of passenger's lives every day. A manager at Inn 'n' Out burger makes $120k a year.

Food Service Managers median salary is $47,960 per year

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Management/Food-s...nagers.htm

I know, but Inn N Out is the highest paid fast food company in the country.

http://www.businessinsider.com/in-and-ou...pay-2013-2

Post: #21

(01-12-2014 10:15 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  I know, but Inn N Out is the highest paid fast food company in the country.

http://www.businessinsider.com/in-and-ou...pay-2013-2

Pilots also have deferred compensation by way of a defined benefit contribution plan and great benefits in general.

Inn and Out is an anomaly. Would you rather be a pilot flying around the world or a manager of a burger restaurant in California?

Post: #22

I saw the michael moore movie and I asked a flight attendant if the low pay of pilots was true. She said it wasnt and that she was making 60k a year doing her job. I am very steptical of michael moore dude is worth in the neighborhood of 100 million yet rallies against the rich. He also grew up in a rich area not the poor city of flint like he tries to tell people to give him working class credentials.

Post: #23

It's just supply and demand at work. Plenty of starting pilots with little experience, so they get paid poorly to work for regional airlines flying small planes. Keep in mind benefits can be decent, like you can be sort of location independent (then fly free to wherever you'll be working that day); you get free or heavily discounted (90% off) flights for you and family on that airline and most of their partner airlines; you can save on housing costs. Since many people (pilots and FAs) in that industry are on the road half the time, then it's not uncommon for them to rent a place in their home city together that's smaller than usual, knowing there will be a rare day when they're all home on the same night.

Then when you get experience, the real money starts coming in, like $200k+ to fly long-haul jumbo jets. The added bonus is you only have to work a few days a month, since each flight means you rack up your hours pretty quick. For example, a round-trip to Hong Kong and back would be about 30 hours of working time, so just one round-trip flight and you've almost worked a full "week". So if you work your schedule right, you can do a handful of long haul flights like that over the span of 2 weeks, and that's all you need to work for that month. (You need 1-2 days of rest between flights, so that's why you can't do them back to back and do it all in 1 week).

On top of that, you stay in pretty nice hotels, in a good part of town. No Hampton Inn next to the airport for you -- that's part of the contract also that you stay in good hotels near good attractions.

Post: #24

I used to dream of becoming a pilot as a kid and kept onto it right through my teens. It ain't happening, but I do still have plenty of the knowledge I picked up.

To answer the question that makes up the thread title: yes and no.

If you're a pilot starting out on the civilian route, you make peanuts for quite some time. The training is expensive, and the regionals that hire you first keep you at minimum wage or barely above it. There's no glamour at all.

The six-figure salaries come when you start flying larger aircraft across greater distances, with trans-Atlantic flyers getting the best incomes. This obviously takes quite some time. The 40-50 year old vets flying heavies from London to New York in service of major carriers are doing pretty well.

There are a couple of ways to break into the field:

1. Civilian. This is the method I mentioned above, and it is the hard way. You're responsible for your own training and certification. All of that is expensive. You begin making peanuts and work your way up, gaining experience and getting certified to fly more substantial aircraft as you go along. It can take decades for someone on this path to get to the "good" salaries ($100k+), and even lower $60-80k pay packages are not going to come easy or cheap.

2. Military. This is what I was going to do. The idea is to take all of the expensive, time-consuming and soul crushing drudgery I mentioned above with regard to training and climbing the ladder and outsource much of it to the US Military. If you can become a military pilot, they'll train you and you'll gain the hours/experience you need over the course of that training and during your actual service.

There are downsides, of course: you could be deployed overseas for long stretches of time, which may or may not be exciting for you depending on your family situation. You'll have to commit to the military for some time (I believe 6 years was the minimum, but I'm not sure). You won't make much, but you'll be doing better than you would as a civilian with rock-bottom pay and no benefits, plus you won't be covering the cost of a lot of your own training.

Despite these realities, I would contend that there is no better path for a pilot to take today than the military route. You will have received high quality training on the taxpayer's dime and your service will leave you with the kind of valuable flight experience that commercial and corporate airlines love to have behind the controls of their large jets. After a decade flying military jets you'll be in a much better position to compete for a job that pays you well than you'd be if you'd spent that time on your own.

If you take the military route, piloting isn't so bad. It isn't romantic Pan-Am mid-20th century glamour, but it ain't bad. If I met a kid dead set on flying today, I'd tell him to keep his grades up and gun for a spot at the Air Force Academy (or the naval Academy secondarily) out of high school with an eye to becoming an officer and a pilot upon graduation. It is competitive, but a focused kid stands a pretty good chance at making it and there's simply no better way these days to get into a cockpit for a living. If you want helos, the Army warrant officer route isn't bad either.

As far as salaries go, check out this link:

http://www.dtek.us/salary/PP_2013_SS.pdf

That's a very recent and detailed survey given to pilots, primarily corporate ones (the dudes flying bigshots around in those private jets and helicopters). There are commercial airline salaries presented here too, though they're less accurate since most of the pilots who responded to the survey were in corporate. It can give you a good idea of what pilots are getting in corporate aviation. There's some significant variation by aircraft category, but if you can manage to Captain a G5 you're going to find yourself safely in the six-figure range.

Post: #25

When I was I high school I seriously considered the AF academy and even spent a week out there as part of a program for prospective applicants. They were very frank about the fact that it was only a very small fraction of the graduates who actually became pilots. There just wasn't that much of need for them compared to everything else Air Force officers do. The slots for flight school were very limited. I believe that may be a little bit different now, in that there is more of a need for ROV pilots today. I recall that they told us, if you have your heart set on flying, you would have a better chance at military flight school going to West Point and then becoming a helicopter pilot.