Post: #1

RVF Book Club.

Every month we will read and discuss a book chosen by our members. There are no limitations to what genre or price of book can be suggested.

Rules.
1. The following month’s books will be voted for start the last week of the month, do not make suggestions in this thread until that time.
2. Only those who have contributed to previous month’s book discussions will be allowed to nominate the next month’s book, however anyone may vote.
3. The following month’s book will be selected based on the number of likes the suggestion receives, majority rules.
4. The rules of the forum apply here, no trolling, or being dicks to each other.


What Do We Talk About? (from BBC
Start with your reaction to the book - did you love it, loathe it or remain indifferent to it? Why?
Then think about what the book is really about - its themes. Are the characters real for you? Who do you sympathise with? Is there a particularly memorable piece of writing or scene in the book? Does the book have a message? What does it tell you about the author? Does it remind you of anything else? Do you want to read more by the same author? If it's a prize winner, did it deserve to be?
Discussion can often be even more stimulating if you disliked a book (though careful how you express it - see above). Did you lose interest in it? Why? The characters? The story itself? Too confusing - or too obvious? Too much or not enough description?
This month the book shall be The Secret History of the Court of Justinian by Procopius available here for free suggested by Thomas the Rhymer.

Post: #2

I'm very excited about this book, it has great reviews on Amazon and I'm fascinated by the Roman empire. Sorry for the delay in posting, the holidays were a pretty full on period for me.

Post: #3

Sounds great, will check it out

Post: #4

I've heard of this book before. Supposedly it gets pretty crazy... I vaguely remember something about the queen of the Byzantine empire having sex with a swan during the middle of a play.

Question for those of you who've read it: how much do we need to know about Justinian and the historical background of the era to understand this book? Can we get the info we need by just reading Wiki? The preface mentions a history by a guy named Gibbon, who I've never heard of (Though I get the feeling I probably should have.)

Post: #5

Damn, some serious character assassination of Belisarius in the first 5 chapters.

This book is coming across more as a novel than actual history, there's a lot of accusations flying around, but no detail as to who witnessed what and some of the allegations are far-fetched, like when the author implies that Belisarius' wife was using witchcraft to keep him compliant.

I keep getting the feeling that I'm reading the Byzantine equivalent of a conspiracy theory, with lots of shocking allegations but with very few facts.

Still, it's hard to keep away from all the sordid details. This is an entertaining book for all the wrong reasons.

I found that skimming the wikipedia page on Belisarius was useful to understand the context of this book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belisarius

Post: #6

I agree. The general historical consensus seems to be that this thing is reliable, but I'm not sure how much I can trust a guy who says that his boss's wife cheated on his boss with her adopted son, and then tore a slave's tongue out (and chopped up her body and threw her in the ocean) when she tattled. But since there's no way to tell some 1500 years after the fact, we'll just have to accept it as true and move on.

The first chapter certainly has a lot of red-pill themes in it. A fierce and highly regarded warrior (Belisarius) manipulated by his harpy wife. Servants who fear the wife more than the husband, and so are loyal to her instead of him. And that's just in the first few pages.

Post: #7

I'm on Chapter 9. I never thought I'd end up reading a 1500 year old description of a gang bang in a work of 'history'. This book just keeps getting better and better.

Post: #8

Great idea guys. I'm in and I'll start reading it today.

Post: #9

Really? I was supposed to read this for a Roman History class in college, but of course didn't. This is a pretty low key book I'm surprised it was chosen. For some reason I decided to hold on to it so it's sitting on my bookshelf. I have some books in queue, but will take a look at it later this month.

Roman History is something that has fascinated me as of late. I know little about it, only the fall of the Empire as that is what my aforementioned class focused on.

Spoiler Alert: Theodora is a slut!

Post: #10

Wow, this book really tries to cram everything into itself! Chapter 12 has horror story elements!

This book is like an ancient far-fetched tabloid news report. It just keeps on getting more and more ridiculous, although it remains entertaining.

Post: #11

So you're reading this pretty closely, Thomas. How much of it do you think is actually true?

Post: #12

(01-09-2014 02:32 AM)Faust Wrote:  So you're reading this pretty closely, Thomas. How much of it do you think is actually true?

I'm at Chapter 14. At this point, I think the work is primarily a work of propaganda. Notice that Procopius seems to be sympathetic to the plights of the heretics and especially the Pagans. I think this book was written as a sort of counter-propaganda - I suspect the exact same accusations of witchcraft, immorality and even demonality were being slung at the heretics. So this is an attempt to demonise the demoniser.

The story of plunder of the Empire doesn't make sense. I'm sure the emperor may have conviscated wealth as it suited him (especially from pagans and heretics), but this period in the history of the empire is also associated with economic growth and increased wealth throughout the core eastern empire. Byzantine products were traded as far as Scotland, and the silk industry blossomed. If the emperor was looting everything as the book suggests, then there would not have been enough money for trade and the Byzantine economy should have shrunk, not grown.

I doubt Justinian was an angel and like all good propaganda the book probably has some truth in it, but at this point I'm treating it more like a novel than a history book.

There used to be a review on this book at Return of Kings, written I think by Quintus Curtius (that's where I first learned about this book). Does anyone know what happened to that review? It appears to have been deleted from the ROK archive.

Post: #13

I remember watching a documentary on Netflix which speaks highly of Justinian but mentions that Theodora (his Queen) was a whore (literally, not figuratively) when he met her. Looking forward to reading more about her. Also looking forward to reading more about the
Byzantine court at its apex.

+1 for the book club Statsi.

Post: #14

I found this passage in Chapter 6 very interesting.

"But the evil spread, and as the authorities in charge of the people did nothing to punish the criminals, these men became very daring; for crime, when encouraged to manifest itself openly, always increases enormously."

The author anticipated Broken Window Theory by something like 1500 years!

I get the feeling that there's a lot of wisdom to be found even in short, random passages of these old books. Until like what, 60 or 70 years ago, it was standard for educated people to have a working knowledge of all the old roman works, wasn't it? Maybe not this particular one, but the Aeneid, the Oddessy, and a bunch of others that I'm probably not even aware exist.

Maybe the fact that we stopped reading them is one of the reasons things are so messed up now.

Post: #15

I remember now where I learnt of this book, it was from here: /thread-27445-...#pid520525

I got halfway through chapter 16 and I decided to stop reading it. There is only so much propaganda I'm willing to tolerate in one book, and it stops being entertaining and devolves into a long boring litany of hatred towards the Emperor and his wife.

Start with your reaction to the book - did you love it, loathe it or remain indifferent to it? Why?

I found myself enjoying it in the beginning because of the drama between Belisarius and the other characters, but once he was gone there wasn't any drama and all that was left up to the point I stopped reading was this constant stream of hate speech.

Then think about what the book is really about - its themes.

It sounds like the author was somewhat anti-orthodox and was pro-pagan and pro-heretic. I believe this book was written as a piece of counter propaganda to discredit the heroes of orthodoxy - Justinian and Theodora.

Are the characters real for you?

The characters in this 'history' are so exaggerated in their flaws as to make the book feel cartoonish, so no, they didn't feel real.

Who do you sympathise with?

There are no sympathetic characters in the book, besides the occasional brief sketch of a rebel/underdog.

Is there a particularly memorable piece of writing or scene in the book?

The 20-guy gangbang and the threesome scene after that caught my attention. Wasn't expecting that in a history book.

Then the fact that Justinian was actually a demon whose head would disappear at random

Does the book have a message?

The basic premise of the book is that the leaders who turned Orthodox Christianity into an intolerant religion, are demonically and profoundly evil.

What does it tell you about the author?

The author is anti-orthodox, although he is careful to only imply that rather than openly state it.

Does it remind you of anything else?

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, another propaganda work designed purely to assassinate the character of the target.

Do you want to read more by the same author?

No. He clearly has a tenous relationship with the truth when it suits him, and to me he's lost all credibility.

Discussion can often be even more stimulating if you disliked a book (though careful how you express it - see above). Did you lose interest in it? Why? The characters? The story itself? Too confusing - or too obvious? Too much or not enough description?

Yes, I lost interest in it, because the author allowed his political agenda to overrule his good sense. I actually regret recommending this book for the book club, but at first glance it seemed so intriguing. I'm very disappointed.

Post: #16

I found the part where his face disappeared and then came back pretty spooky.

Looking at your sig, I realized we should do "Surely you're joking Mr. Feynman" next. That book is awesome.

Post: #17

Just cracked it open today. It's a pretty short book so I should knock it out in a few days. I mentioned earlier that I was supposed to read this book for class. The reason I'm so familiar with it is because my History professor who taught the class edited/translated it (Kaldellis).

First impressions so far were like Thomas', lots of bold accusations. I suppose it's hard to weigh the legitimacy of them because there weren't too many historical sources back then. I guess that's up to the reader to decide.

Post: #18

Lack of historical sources or no, I am going to say that the odds of Justinian's head floating off and leaving its body behind are pretty low.

Post: #19

(01-16-2014 11:33 PM)Faust Wrote:  Lack of historical sources or no, I am going to say that the odds of Justinian's head floating off and leaving its body behind are pretty low.

I feel that the book jumps the shark at that point. Everything up to that point was kind of plausible.

Post: #20

Welp, we're coming up on February so it's time to pick another book. January's kinda fizzled out 'cause Procopius has some credibility issues, but I think we can do better this time. To that end, I'd like to nominate a book that I've read, and that I'm almost certain everyone will enjoy. Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman", the autobiography of theoretical physicist Richard Feynman.

Now you might be asking, "Why would I want to read an autobiography of a physicist? That sounds about as exciting as memorizing a phone book." And that's certainly a reasonable question. But Feynman is one of the coolest guys of the last century. He worked on the Manhattan Project, the WW2 project to create a nuclear bomb, and when he got bored he would sneak into his colleagues' offices and break into their safes for fun. When they started censored his mail to his wife, he started putting made up codes in it to fuck with them.

And not only was he a funny, funny dude, he was red pill years before that was a thing. And not just in the "he was good with women" sense. His wife died at a young age, and he found himself alone and with no idea of how to talk to women. He spends years as a hopeless loser, blowing money on women and sucking up to them, until the owner of a strip club takes him under his wing. The lessons he learns, which I won't spoil, turn him from a hopeless geek into one of the most famous international playboys of his age, and almost certainly the physicist who got the most sex in history. I'll just post a very short sample below, which should give you the idea of it.

Quote:I stop suddenly and I say to her, “You… are worse than a WHORE!”

“Whaddya mean?”

‘“You got me to buy these sandwiches, and what am I going to get for it? Nothing!”

After I was through eating, I went back to the bar to report to the master. I explained everything, and told him I was sorry that I flunked, but I tried to recover.

He said very calmly, “It’s OK, Dick; it’s all right. Since you ended up not buying her anything, she’s gonna sleep with you tonight.”

Two o’clock comes around, the bar closes, and Ann hasn’t appeared. I ask the master and his wife if I can come over to their place again. They say sure. Just as we’re coming out of the bar, here comes Ann, running across Route 66 toward me. She puts her arm in mine, and says, “Come on, let’s go over to my place.”

The master was right. So the lesson was terrific!

The book's available for free on the internet, and most libraries and book stores should have it. If anybody else thinks this might be a fun read, or has any other suggestions, just reply to this post.

Post: #21

What happened to Statsi?

Anyway, my next nomination for the book club is Theodore Roosevelt: An Autobiography, available here: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3335

If Statsi doesn't respond to this thread then maybe me or Faust can run the book club from February. I think more people will join in when they see the club is a persistent thing, for now of course it will just be a handful of people.

I'd like to encourage everyone to write down what they thought of the books in the club, even if they didn't finish it by the deadline.

Post: #22

I'm struggling with the book to be honest. I'll sit down and finish it before February though. I'm happy for anyone to run the book club, so long as it's ran in a systemic and fair way. So whichever suggestion gets the most likes from participants should be taken for next month.

If anything it'd be nice to have someone mix it up and put a different spin on the book club. Maybe a more contentious book with a debate planned in club? Or a more educational text as an introduction to a field. Introductory economics books would be an interesting choice, or even a game resource with members testing the material would be awesome.

Post: #23

This is a great idea, gents, and motivation to start and finish a book. I'll read the Fineman book.

Thomas, I have always wanted to read about Roosevelt, but afraid I haven't been reading enough lately and would get mired in that one.

Post: #24

Thomas-

Have you read Theodore Roosevelt's biography before? I think we might do better, at least while we're getting this started, if we stick to books that one of us has read before.

Post: #25

I'll join the club and I'll be an active participant. I'm going back to college in the Fall and this should increase a variety of skills that I have been neglecting since I dropped out about a year ago.