Post: #1

Post: #2

Unfortunately, too many people assume the police are there to protect your rights. They're not. Their job is to get convictions.

It's your defense attorney's job to look after your rights. Find one you like, and follow his advice.

Post: #3

Great post.

Post: #4

You could hand this pamphlet to everyone in the United States and I guarantee a disturbingly high percentage of people would either not read it or for some inexplicable reason, would decide to ignore the advice given, resulting in a very low reduction in the number of arrests and convictions. It's kind of like the Miami and Las Vegas threads on the forum.

Post: #5

Like the info-graphic, but be warned--cops are more interested in generating revenue for the state than obeying the constitution.

I have seen disastrous cases in the news where someone kid uses the "am I being detained or am I free to go" line and the cop takes it as attitude and arrests the kid. If the kid so much as lifts a finger or tries to assert any rights during this unlawful arrest--the kid is charged with resisting arrest and assaulting an officer. Depending on the media coverage/videotape recording the kid may or may not get convicted (or have the charges dropped later on).

I like the youtube video where the law professor advises citizens to never talk to cops period. Assert 5th amendment and keep your mouth shut. If they arrest you,they can always talk to your attorney.

Post: #6

tl;dr:



Good thread.

During uni I was a research assistant for a prof who studied criminal law. I spent four semesters reading through courts docs to identify the 'key factor' in small-time perps' convictions.

The number of guys who would've walked if they shut up was insane.

Unless you got a JD— swallow your pride, be respectful, tell the po you won't talk without a lawyer, and ask if you're free to go.

In a similar vein:





Edit: ^^this is the vid Flavius mentioned^^

Post: #7

(01-03-2014 08:30 PM)Flavius Aetius Wrote:  Like the info-graphic, but be warned--cops are more interested in generating revenue for the state than obeying the constitution.

And many are simply meatheads who get off on harassing the public. The real cops aren't so annoying but the various quasi-police at the airport - immigration, TSA, customs - are truly the dregs of society. I've never been treated worse by a gov official in my international travels then when showing my US passport upon returning to the US. Would like to see a graphic summarizing how little I can cooperate with these guys.

Post: #8

Cops will lie, bluff, and play trickery to get confessions. The big think I see is that they take advantage of people's shock and guilt after being arrested, and use that as a way to break down people easily.

No matter what happens, always keep your mouth shut. Never consent to an police interview. You would be shocked to know how many convictions (especially for sex offenses) are sealed just by careless talk, admissions, or confessions.

Here's one of many, many examples I could use. A few years ago, I once had to meet a client who was in custody in the police station. He was a young black student. He had been accused of "rape" by some chick he had had consensual sex with the previous night. She later changed her story and accused him of forcing himself on her.

So, my guy got arrested and called me. We were put in one of those enclosed, claustrophobic interview rooms with a female detective who thought she was a hard ass. Little did she know who she was dealing with.

I knew the cops had nothing on him and that they were fishing around for a confession or admission. I told the female police detective that my client was not going to be making any kind of statement. She got visibly enraged, tried to rattle me with legalistic bullshit, and then told us that unless my guy provided "his side" of the story, that they would formally charge him right there. She said she "knew" my guy had done something. Then she walked out of the room to let us stew about it.

My guy was just a young guy and not a thug, so he was freaking out. I told him to chill, and said that if they had evidence on him, that he would be charged anyway. The whole reason they want a statement was because they don't have anything. Even if they did have something, he'd be charged anyway.

Detective walks back in and I tell her we're not saying anything. She eventually says that she could not proceed with the case at this time and that my guy could go and would not be charged formally.

Bottom line: If this guy had been on his own, scared, with no help, he would have started talking. And then he would have cut his own throat. No matter what he said, they would have used it against him somehow.

I've seen this type of scenario play out dozens of times as a defense attorney for federal and state cases. Most notably for fraud cases and sex cases, but it can happen for anything.

Always keep your mouth shut. Easy to say, but in the stress of the moment, people forget.

Post: #9

I actually have a lot of advice about this, but first I'll start with the advice someone gave me. Some dude I knew once told me back when I was young to never tell a cop you've been drinking. Ever. Just doesn't pay to be the cop's buddy.

This dude had been drinking and decided to pull his car into a strip mall parking lot and just fall asleep with the car parked and turned off. He only had the key in the ignition but the car was off. A cop came around minutes later and asked him what he was doing and the guy said he was at a party and just sleeping until he felt good enough to drive home. The cop asked if he had been drinking and he told him he had. Cop arrested him and the dude ended up with a DUI charge. Apparently, even having your key in the ignition while parked, regardless if the car is on or off, is sufficient cause for a DUI arrest if you have been drinking. Set him back like 3K as well as a suspended license. Thing is, the strip mall parking lot was private property so he had every right to be there, unlike a public road where you can get pulled over for drunk driving. If the dude simply had answered "no" he would have been straight.

Now in my case, I was up in NYC one weekend with an acquaintance, not really a friend. We knew mutual people in common and he had always seemed to want to impress me whenever we'd spot each other in different clubs in DC. So he hit me up out the blue and invited me on the weekend trip. We drove up from DC with some girl he knew and whose car we used. She paid for the whole trip up.

So we went to some party in Bushwick (Brooklyn) which was the point of their weekend and it was kinda wack so I decided to go to another party because a different girl I knew and wanted to smash was going to be there. I knew the guy throwing the party as well. The girl we went up with stayed at the first party so me and the guy took her car (I drove) to the other party somewhere else in Brooklyn. I think it was Bed-Stuy. We get there and everyone is chillin, eating crawfish and drinking, and I see the girl I had told I was coming up. I'm getting into the conversation and the guy I came with wanted to leave immediately. He was just trippin. Completely fucking up my conversation and demanding the keys. I told him to chill but he wouldn't listen. At that point I got irritated and shoved him real hard. I was ready to scrap and I could see he got concerned. People stepped in to create some distance and I continued talking to the girl. I get her number as she says she'll be in DC in two weeks. I end up smashing when she moved down there for the whole summer.

I step outside and the guy is there and we get into some words and I start chasing him around some cars. He had already called the cops apparently and when they quickly showed up, he immediately tried to say I had taken his friend's car and would not return it. He then tries to prove that by calling the chick in front of all of us with his phone and telling her what happen. Then he gives the phone to the cops and has it on speaker. To everyone's surprise, she said she wanted me to have the car, not him, so the cops couldn't do shit. I then bounce and tell the dude good luck finding his way back to the first party lol. He had a deer in the headlights look. First time ever in NYC and didn't know his way around.

So I get in the car and try to use memory to get back to the first party. I hook a left on the first street and I knew I'd have to hook another left but every street coming up is a one way going the other way. So finally, after about three streets, I realize at the last minute the next street is one where I can hit a left so I make the left but it was a really hard turn. One of the cops who showed up at the party was in a parked police car around the corner and had seen the turn and immediately pulled me over. Though I had been drinking - quite a bit - I remembered the advice of that guy from years ago. First thing the cop asks me is if I've been drinking. I said no. He called for backup. Mad cops showed up.

Every cop tried a different routine to get me to admit I was drinking and to submit to a breathalyzer. I was resolute in my stubborness. They issued me a citation to appear in court. I was conflicted because I knew I would be hitting up Latin America for a while. I decide to go to court anyway a few months later and go back to NYC. It was some building in Manhattan and a bunch of lowlifes were in a long line. It was like an institution. After much delay, I finally get to a courtroom and eventually called. Apparently it wasn't the real court date. They said I could either agree (without guilt) to pay $200 and have nothing on my record OR I could be given a REAL court date later (when I would be in Costa Rica/Panama), but if the judge found me guilty, I would have an even bigger fine, plus court fees, and something on the record possibly.

It was basically extortion but I figured $200 with no record is not bad for getting out of a DUI. Plus I got to chill out in Latin America with no worries on my mind. It felt pretty liberating to stick to my guns and follow another man's advice about something serious and it actually leading to a good outcome.

Post: #10

Nice pic Hen. Oddly enough I was just telling my cousin that if a cop asks to search your vehicle you should always say no.

Post: #11

Jackr Wrote:Unless Especially if you got a JD— swallow your pride, be respectful, tell the po you won't talk without a lawyer, and ask if you're free to go.

Fixed that for you.

Post: #12

Figures this thing was written by PARALEGALS. I agree with the general sentiment of not trusting police, but they're actually giving some bad advice and not clarifying that these "rules" can vary greatly by state for something like DUI checkpoints. While something like Miranda v. Arizona has generally only been narrowed by the U.S. Supreme court.

Talk to someone who has done traffic tickets and criminal defense in the state you're going to be driving in. The fourth amendment doesn't change, but some of the rules about traffic stops, DUIs, etc. are going to vary based on the important cases in the state you're in.

Post: #13

As an ex-cop: if questioned, always deny, say nothing, you dont now shit. Act dumb. If they had something on you you would be cuffed already. If you talk, theyll find a reason to.

Post: #14

(01-04-2014 12:00 AM)Peregrine Wrote:  

Jackr Wrote:Unless Especially if you got a JD— swallow your pride, be respectful, tell the po you won't talk without a lawyer, and ask if you're free to go.

Fixed that for you.

Heh.

Don't have a JD so I wouldn't know—thank god

Post: #15

(01-04-2014 12:12 AM)germanico Wrote:  As an ex-cop: if questioned, always deny, say nothing, you don't know shit. Act dumb. If they had something on you you would be cuffed already. If you talk, theyll find a reason to.

This. A thousand times this. +1 good sir!

This pretty much sums up everything you need to know.

Post: #16

repeat delete please

Post: #17

What if someone has something illegal in the car and they ask to search? I guess you're fucked unless you hide it good.

Post: #18

You have no real rights anymore, the police will do whatever the fuck they feel like doing and generally will get away with it. Trying to be Captain Lawyer-Pants with them is the quickest way to ensure they'll do anything in their power to jam up your day. Call them 'Sir', kiss ass, and play dumb.

As an aside, here's a fun story.
A buddy of mine once witnessed a fight at a bar, and when Police arrived he offered to give his account and to ID the people who started it. The reward for his Samaritan act? They searched him, found weed in his pocket, fucked him over.

Post: #19

Relevant video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cSfotUvjdk

Would things be different if she weren't a US citizen?

Post: #20

There are good cops out there. Cops generally have a very tough job. You wouldn't think it to just see them walking down the street. But I can imagine that they're always tense, and worried about something, something that could kill them or fuck up their career. If we didn't have as good a police system as we do, our lives would all be a million times worse. I'd just say, keep this in mind and have a certain sympathy for the police, even if you feel you can't trust them.

Post: #21

^^ Yeti, I agree. I think most cops are good, we just hear a lot about the bad ones. They are human, they have tons of conerns going through their heads, being crazy or acting up to a cop won't help the situation.

Thanks for sharing Hencredible.

Post: #22

I have criminal-law experience. The advice below applies only when the police may consider you a suspect in the commission of a crime. If you merely witnessed a traffic accident, or it is clear that you are not a suspect, this post does not apply to you.

The one thing you must absolutely remember when dealing with a police officer who may suspect you is to not say anything other than, "I would like to speak to a lawyer." It is okay to identify yourself, because in some jurisdictions that is required. After that, your response to every question should be, "I would like to speak to a lawyer." You may also deny the police consent to search you or your car expressly, but you can accomplish that same thing by saying, "I'd like to speak to a lawyer."

Officer: "Did you do X?
You: "I'd like to speak to a lawyer."

Officer: "How did that guy get a big lump on his head?"
You: "I'd like to speak to a lawyer."

Officer: "Where were you on the night of April 3rd?"
You: "I'd like to speak to a lawyer."

Officer: "Can I search your car and coat?"
You: "No" or "I'd like to speak to a lawyer."

Guess what your lawyer is going to tell you? He is going to instruct you not to talk to the police at all. Here is why: there is a high degree of risk that the officer will misquote you. Hearsay quotations of the accused are admissible at trial under the rules of evidence in every state and in federal court. On rare occasions, the officer is deliberately misquoting, but most of the time he is being sincere and thinks he is accurate, even when he is not. The officer may even misquote you in his notes. The officer's quotation errors will not be random. His misquotations will always make you look more guilty than you are. That is not because officers are trying to frame you (for the most part), it is because they are cynical, jaded, and believe everyone is guilty. The officer's memory will skew according to what he wishes you have said. The source of the errors and bias in his memory is his bias.

I know what you're thinking. I'll just tell the truth and correct the officer. Wrong. Juries almost always believe the officer's recollection of what you said over your version of events. If the officer writes down in his notes that you confessed (which is very common), you are pretty much done. You cannot afford to take any risk that the officer will misquote you. That is why you should say absolutely nothing or "I'd like to speak to a lawyer."

Then find yourself a good criminal defense lawyer.

Post: #23

Ok good post...now here is the side from a COP.
Most situations a cop doesn't have to read you your rights. That's all hollywood bullshit. If a uniform cop arrests you because he saw you commit a crime or a victim/witness points you out...you are arrested. No rights...why? because we don't have any questions to ask you..we don't need to. By law you have to give your name,age, address and other gov't required info(this is NYS).In this kind of case the lawyer is needed for the defense but NO lawyer is going to come down to the station house..you will Not see a lawyer until you get to central booking. In large cities like NYC you are processed in the station houses but booked in the central booking/court facility.
All the "i want a lawyer" situations only apply when investigators/detectives Suspect you and detain you for questioning.
As for having id.... If cop stops you for NO reason than you don't need id..but you have to still identify your self. But there is an exception that NYC gets away with. The transit system and other public city property(parks,libraries) have different rules that are enforceable once you step foot inside. If a transit cop calls you over.... its a catch 22 situation because the transit rules require you to have id and show when asked.They get there quotas fulfilled like that all the time...big ticket for Not displaying "proper gov't id".
My favorite one....to use against liberals. There is a ticket even for "failure to display id in a timely manner". So we ask for id and the liberal starts whining and complaining(call us pigs maybe?)lol. After 2 minutes we hit him with a ticket for not showing his id FAST enough(he was being an A HOLE).
In other words..realize that a cop can always come up with half a dozen more things to write you for.Most cops are being NICE when they only give you one summons.There are so many code violations in every big city to bust you for.
But tbh be nice and polite and you can usually avoid A LOT of trouble.

To clarify:
Officer: "Can I search your car and coat?"
You: "No" or "I'd like to speak to a lawyer."

True...except many moving violations you can be arrested for.Also unpaid tickets will put a name a for a warrant..MUST arrest situation. The car than gets sent to a lot and CAN AND WILL BE SEARCHED since all civilian property must be searched when taken to a police facility.. Again an aggressive cop can most of the time turn the tables. That's why MOST cops are nice..they just write the ticket and leave.
We can also search your coat if we stop you for something and are writing a ticket but SEE a bulge! If we see what looks like it might be a weapon and then we find it..you are BUSTED! Cops safety comes before a civilians rights. That's why the 44 shot cops were rightfully acquitted. It was a mistake but as long as they felt safety threatened they had a legal right to take action. Again compliance would have saved his life!


"know what you're thinking. I'll just tell the truth and correct the officer. Wrong. Juries almost always believe the officer's recollection of what you said over your version of events. If the officer writes down in his notes that you confessed (which is very common), you are pretty much done. You cannot afford to take any risk that the officer will misquote you. That is why you should say absolutely nothing or "I'd like to speak to a lawyer."

True..... they write in their memo book. Memo books are considered official legal public records. Even if the cop dies..those notes can be used.

Post: #24

Re: above.

Yes if your car is taken into custody the cops can/should inventory the car. Therefore if you are carrying something in your automobile you shouldn't be, it would be a good idea to transport it in a locked container inside the trunk, that way the cops will inventory "1 strongbox" etc...

Post: #25

I knew someone who had a "stash spot" secret compartment built in his car. He got pulled over, it got towed and he got it back with whatever he had in there.