Post: #1

A woman who wants her divorced boyfriend of four years to put a ring on it has complained to the Sun Sentinel's "Ask Amy" advice column.

Quote:I don't understand why he hasn't asked me to marry him. We've talked about this several times (with me bringing up this subject). I end up getting upset because he gives no specific reason for not wanting to get married.

***

He treats me well, but I sometimes feel used and underappreciated and feel I'm not good enough to be married to him. I feel insecure not being married; there is no commitment to anything. What should I do: be happily unmarried or look for another Mr. Right who is willing to commit (in time) to getting married?

Her boyfriend should be congratulated for showing more spine than Bill Burr or Mark Minter. Of course, unlike Burr, he has the advantage of having lived through a divorce.

Notice how this woman can only think of herself. She "feel[s] insecure." She feels "there is no commitment."

But what about him? What if he feels less secure in a marriage, because of its disproportionate costs and risks to him? What if he is happier unmarried? It is striking how the lady asking for advice nowhere mentions, or seems to care, what is important to him.

Further, her complaint that he is insufficiently committed because he won't marry her rings hollow. She doesn't seem to realize that marriage itself today is "no commitment to anything." Marriage can be dissolved for any reason or no reason on a moment's notice. That is not commitment. The only legal consequence of marriage today is that it entitles the woman to an enormous payoff in the event of divorce. Why should a guy who has already gone through it once want to risk it again?

My bet is that she stays with her boyfriend regardless of whether he marries her. She's in her fifties, after all. She's probably past the wall or close to it.

Post: #2

At least he has learned from his previous mistake (aka marriage). I have 0% respect for people who fail to learn from their mistakes. This guy has obviously embraced the red pill lifestyle. Good for him--fuck that controlling bitch.

Post: #3

(12-31-2013 04:17 AM)Flavius Aetius Wrote:  At least he has learned from his previous mistake (aka marriage). I have 0% respect for people who fail to learn from their mistakes. This guy has obviously embraced the red pill lifestyle. Good for him--fuck that controlling bitch.

It's interesting that he won't give her a straight answer why he won't marry her. Could he be running game on her?

Post: #4

Quote:Further, her complaint that he is insufficiently committed because he won't marry her rings hollow. She doesn't seem to realize that marriage itself today is "no commitment to anything." Marriage can be dissolved for any reason or no reason on a moment's notice. That is not commitment. The only legal consequence of marriage today is that it entitles the woman to an enormous payoff in the event of divorce. Why should a guy who has already gone through it once want to risk it again?

You just said it yourself. Marriage can be dissolved at a moment's notice for no reason, with the only consequence being that the female gets an enormous payoff. Therefore, marriage is a huge commitment - for the guy. What she's really asking is "why won't he put on the leash like a good dog boy?" Whether she's sufficiently self aware to know this is a different question.

Post: #5

(12-31-2013 04:20 AM)Consul Wrote:  

(12-31-2013 04:17 AM)Flavius Aetius Wrote:  At least he has learned from his previous mistake (aka marriage). I have 0% respect for people who fail to learn from their mistakes. This guy has obviously embraced the red pill lifestyle. Good for him--fuck that controlling bitch.

It's interesting that he won't give her a straight answer why he won't marry her. Could he be running game on her?

He's learned the cardinal rule of dealing with woman. Never use logic. You can't change their minds once they are made up any way.

Woman don't have conversations because they want to understand you better or reach a reasonable compromise. The only purpose of the conversation is to lambast you into giving them what they want.

In the past, women were committed to marriage because leaving it meant giving up their kids, losing their share of resources and social disgrace.

Today, with no constraints to protect the man from the woman's emotional decision making, the only power a man has to maintain a long term relationship is by leveraging the promise of something more. Once he has nothing more to give her, there is nothing to protect him from her need to "find herself."

Tragically, female hypergamy has resulted in a state where the only way a man has power over the length of a relationship is by always withholding something she desires.

Post: #6

Why do women struggle so much with understanding this?

A wedding ring is NOT a long service medal.

You want it, earn it.

"I'd hate myself if I had that kind of attitude, if I were that weak." - Arnold

Post: #7

Looked at the full letter. Crucial fact: both are in their 50s. So really no reason to get married.

I have some sympathy for women in 30s who want commitment to have babies.

Post: #8

(12-31-2013 04:20 AM)Consul Wrote:  It's interesting that he won't give her a straight answer why he won't marry her. Could he be running game on her?

Could be that he doesn't have a straight answer, or else he gave her one she just didn't accept or recognize as valid.

Most likely, the straight answer she is fears and is listening for is "you aren't worth marrying." Any kind of explanation he gives that doesn't relate specifically to that issue or at least something about her personally just doesn't process.

Post: #9

Quote:He treats me well, but I sometimes feel used and underappreciated and feel I'm not good enough to be married to him. I feel insecure not being married; there is no commitment to anything.

So he treats her well but her feeelings negate that?

Notice all her complaints are how she herself feels, rather than the relationship itself.

Relationships are about "us," not the "I, me, me, me."

Her narcissism should already be a red flag.

Post: #10

Sombro nailed it. When talking with friends, lovers, or anybody in general I tend to "flag" a convo in my head to help me remember them being so narcissistic and that they will only be thinking about themselves most of the time. I call out my girl and my lovers, sometimes friends but never strangers. Ex(at the DMV a lady bitched "I can't believe I have to wait so long to take a silly picture". Told her " WE can't believe WE have to wait so long either".) the look on their face when you slightly call out their self-centered-ness is priceless.


A girl in my rotation always drops this I/Me nonsense as if she's the only one dealing with shit, others just choose not to speak up, so it doesn't make your life more or less of a struggle. This lady reeks of entitlement as if marriage is something she deserves. This letter was all about her and those damn "feelings". If she was truly open and worthy of marriage the letter would have read more along the lines of...( WE are a couple having some issues on working on a compromise because WE haven't married yet and WE would like input on what WE should work on to come to an agreement and yada yada yada). This selfish bitch wrote that piece behind his back so already a red flag about her unwillingness to be forward and open to her dude so what makes you think with Marriage she will change and be a good wife?

Post: #11

(12-31-2013 09:40 AM)Suits Wrote:  Tragically, female hypergamy has resulted in a state where the only way a man has power over the length of a relationship is by always withholding something she desires.

Nailed it Suits.

So the only way this man is able to maintain leverage in the LT relationship is by not marrying her--since she seems desperate to get married. Once she gets that marriage certificate she will own him.

Post: #12

There's no real answer he can give her that would satisfy. Once a woman has it in her mind that she wants to be married, they aren't going to be happy until that goal is satisfied. And it is a goal. He could lay it out to her logically - tell her he got burned once, and doesn't want to be put in that position again. He could tell her that he's perfectly happy, and that he treats her well, and that it will continue as long as she does the same. She'll be insulted, and still be fixated on making it legal.

There are plenty of men out there that like being married for some reason, no matter how many divorces they go through. We see celebrity men that are breaking off multiple ex's, and have to take whatever shit work gets offered them so they can keep up with the payments. Fuck that. And you know what those broads do? They meet a new guy, but don't live with or marry HIM, so they can keep getting the funds.

At age 50+, there's nothing other than companionship that she can provide him, and that isn't worth the price he'd pay if either of them wanted out. If they were at an age where she could bear children, and he wanted kids, then fine. But not now.

Post: #13

I applaud his game.

WIA

Post: #14

(12-31-2013 09:45 AM)crippler Wrote:  Why do women struggle so much with understanding this?

A wedding ring is NOT a long service medal.

You want it, earn it.

I'm adding this one into my tool chest.

You can use this on girls trying to get you to commit to a LTR.

Post: #15

She's not going anywhere. Bitching is her only play here. Nag him into submission.

Post: #16

(12-31-2013 04:17 AM)Flavius Aetius Wrote:  At least he has learned from his previous mistake (aka marriage). I have 0% respect for people who fail to learn from their mistakes. This guy has obviously embraced the red pill lifestyle. Good for him--fuck that controlling bitch.

FDB

Post: #17

(12-31-2013 06:22 PM)Parlay44 Wrote:  She's not going anywhere. Bitching is her only play here. Nag him into submission.

At bottom, it seems like her lack of leverage or power over him is the root of her unhappiness. She wants a marriage as a trophy. At her age, it is hard to see what other purpose marriage serves other than leverage and power for herself.

Post: #18

(12-31-2013 03:14 PM)Flavius Aetius Wrote:  

(12-31-2013 09:40 AM)Suits Wrote:  Tragically, female hypergamy has resulted in a state where the only way a man has power over the length of a relationship is by always withholding something she desires.

Nailed it Suits.

So the only way this man is able to maintain leverage in the LT relationship is by not marrying her--since she seems desperate to get married. Once she gets that marriage certificate she will own him.

Right. Not proposing marriage is the ONLY leverage guys have these days.

It's not like we can withhold cash, sex or shelter once the vows are said. We've literally played all of our cards at that point.

It isn't like we are going to win at a round of silent treatment.

Post: #19

I have a buddy who got married and divorced twice.

Now he's 50 and learned his lesson. Will never, ever, ever get married again. No reason and burned hand teaches best.

But get this...he constantly has 40-something girlfriends. They ALWAYS want to get married. They beg and plead and nag and manuever. He calls me and tells me the latest. We laugh at them. Endless ploys.

He has such power. They look like idiots. Hey girls, get a clue. After 30 you are dog meat. We laugh at you. Nothing you can do about it.

Post: #20

(12-31-2013 09:03 PM)Suits Wrote:  It isn't like we are going to win at a round of silent treatment.

haha A sidenote, but wanna bet?

I love returning the favor of ignoring a girlfriend if she's trying give me the silent treatment. A few days - or a week if must be - of not going out of your way to track them down and they fall apart.

One time a girlfriend decided she was mad at me and was giving me the treatment and I had no clue what she was even upset about. By the time she broke down and contacted me I had pretty much continued on with my life as if I had no girlfriend and even booked a trip to Hawaii with some of my buddies.

Then she insisted I invite her too. I refused and ended up breaking up with her because she wouldn't shut up about it.

I suppose it depends on what you consider a "win."

EDIT: I've done the same thing to women I've lived with. They're just not emotionally strong enough to hold out if you say fuck it, grab a beer, and go into another room to read a book. Sounds like playing games, and I guess it is, but I'm not going to give someone who is trying to manipulate me the response they're going for.

Post: #21

(01-01-2014 08:59 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

(12-31-2013 09:03 PM)Suits Wrote:  It isn't like we are going to win at a round of silent treatment.

haha A sidenote, but wanna bet?

I love returning the favor of ignoring a girlfriend if she's trying give me the silent treatment. A few days - or a week if must be - of not going out of your way to track them down and they fall apart.

One time a girlfriend decided she was mad at me and was giving me the treatment and I had no clue what she was even upset about. By the time she broke down and contacted me I had pretty much continued on with my life as if I had no girlfriend and even booked a trip to Hawaii with some of my buddies.

Then she insisted I invite her too. I refused and ended up breaking up with her because she wouldn't shut up about it.

I suppose it depends on what you consider a "win."

EDIT: I've done the same thing to women I've lived with. They're just not emotionally strong enough to hold out if you say fuck it, grab a beer, and go into another room to read a book. Sounds like playing games, and I guess it is, but I'm not going to give someone who is trying to manipulate me the response they're going for.

If you aren't married, I think you stand a chance. Once married, I think it gets harder.

Even if you win, then she divorces you for being "emotional distance" and takes half your stuff.