Post: #1

I heard an ingenious argument once and just want to share it with you guys.

Why is cannabis illegal? It is illegal so that low-level criminals have an easy NON-VIOLENT way of making money.

Criminals deal cannabis to make money.

Fine. We can live with that.

But what if cannabis suddenly becomes legal?

Well those same criminals are still going to want an easy way to make money.

So instead of doing something mediocre like selling weed. They are now breaking into your house to steal your 48 inch TV. Or they are stealing your car. Or they are mugging you on the street for your wallet.

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So by making cannabis ILLEGAL - it actual helps prevent more serious crimes (ie violent ones, and ones involving theft of property) from being committed.

The 'selling cannabis for easy money' helps channel criminals away from more serious crimes. It is that simple.

I am sucker for an elegant and ingenious argument. So I really like this one (I didn't come up with it by the way!)

So - what y'all think?

Post: #2

Joe Rogan has a great explanation of why the US made it illegal.

Post: #3

I've heard the "catchall" theory before. It's bogus.

Prior to the "war on drugs" which was started by the Nixon administration in 1970, there was no "drug epidemic". But by creating a black market the government made it extremely profitable for poor people to push drugs into their own communities. THAT is what created the massive boom in the drug culture.

End the drug war, end the "crisis".

Post: #4

Well let's back up a second.

The "catchall" theory doesn't explain why cannabis became illegal in the first place. But it might explain why it has stayed illegal, and why lawmakers are worried about making it legal?

Once the demand for drugs has been created - it won't disappear overnight.

Also - it seems possible that cannabis dealers will transtion into pushing 'harder' drugs instead - if cannabis becomes legal.

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Just throwing it out there. I don't care either way. I don't like cannabis. But I don't mind other people using it.

Post: #5

It's illegal because Henry Hearst (newspaper magnate) owned a large stake in DuPont, who was making synthetic rope, to compete with hemp rope. He ran a massive smear campaign in his newspapers that weed was making blacks and Mexicans go crazy and rape white women. There was a huge outrage, and weed was made illegal, thus making hemp illegal. This made DuPont the largest producer of rope in the US, and made Hurst even more wealthy.

At least that's the story I was told. I never looked into it, so no idea if it's true.

Post: #6

Facts:

Hemp was the most valuable crop in the world up to the 1890's, it was able to supply a fabric which was soft, light durable. It made the sails on ships. It obviously fell in value with engine powered ships. It was course, thus afterwards took some refining to make it into clothes, as well as refinement bringing new products such as hemp oil and paper, but they did get there around the 1920's... but there was a synthetic competitor called Nylon.


Conspiracy:

The patent of Nylon was owned by the DuPont family.

A major player in the prohibition was a guy called Federal Narcotic guy called Aslinger, and was married into the Mellon family. I believe the head of the Mellon family was big in oil as well as the banker to the DuPont family.

Note: I last had a toke in 2004.

Post: #7

(12-14-2013 10:47 PM)cardguy Wrote:  Well let's back up a second.

The "catchall" theory doesn't explain why cannabis became illegal in the first place. But it might explain why it has stayed illegal, and why lawmakers are worried about making it legal?

Once the demand for drugs has been created - it won't disappear overnight.

Also - it seems possible that cannabis dealers will transtion into pushing 'harder' drugs instead - if cannabis becomes legal.

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Just throwing it out there. I don't care either way. I don't like cannabis. But I don't mind other people using it.

The war on drugs was not about making drugs illegal. It was about stepping up enforcement which effected the underground market. There was no market for marijuana because the people who smoked it just bought it from people who grew it. You could get cocaine from your pharmacist, even though it was illegal, because there was no real consequence to him for selling it to you.

Enter the congressional drug act of 1970, and now all of a sudden legitimate people can no longer operate in the drug game. A much more vicious form of entrepreneur enters the game, with an eye on not just supplying the market but expanding it by radically increasing the number of addicts. Not just selling dope, but pushing it into poorer areas.

Post: #8

I'm sorry, but the OP's idea is probably the stupidest reason I've ever heard anyone come up with about why weed is illegal.

Post: #9

Ali banned it.

Post: #10

(12-14-2013 11:55 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  I'm sorry, but the OP's idea is probably the stupidest reason I've ever heard anyone come up with about why weed is illegal.

But in law enforcement circles, the "catchall" theory is very popular. DAs and cops use this to defend their fascist behavior. I've heard the conversations first hand. It's bullshit, but from a political standpoint his post is relevant.

Post: #11

Ummm....I don't know if it applies to weed BUT I don't know if want the illegal drug business stopped immediately. I do not want criminals or potential criminals to be at a TOTAL "nothing to lose" attitude or innocent people would be random victims of crimes.

Post: #12

(12-14-2013 10:25 PM)cardguy Wrote:  So instead of doing something mediocre like selling weed. They are now breaking into your house to steal your 48 inch TV. Or they are stealing your car. Or they are mugging you on the street for your wallet.

By that reasoning the Dutch ought to be living in fear and terror of robbers.

And crime should be spiking in every US state that has semi-legalised it.

I think all that will change is that people will switch from selling illegally to selling it legally. Someone still has to sell it and make money.

Was there a spike in crime after the end of prohibition in the United States? Not that I'm aware of.

Post: #13

That's a very interesting theory, but I think the existence of harsh prison punishments for selling/dealing cannabis throws a wrench into it. It costs so much to incarcerate anyone that the authorities would be cheating themselves out of the peaceful, low-level criminals that they've created as a lesser evil. It wouldn't make sense to invest into a system and then tear it down.

So, following that line of thought, all that is going to change when cannabis becomes legal is that these dealers are not going to cause massive imprisoment costs, while they're still going to make a living. Maybe they'll go behind counters as low-skilled workforce in designated pharmacies, but that's all. At least I want to believe that.

Post: #14

Here is something else I came across once.

The reason some cannabis dealers get harsh sentences is not in order to stop them selling cannabis.

Instead - imagine you have a criminal gang who are committing alot of crimes. And you have alot of people who won't give evidence against them for the drimes they have done (either out of fear or loyalty).

Well - in situations like that. The easiest way for the police to get gang members behind bars is to arrest them for posessing and/or selling weed.

It is much easier to prove somebody was in posession of weed with intent to supply. Than it is to prove over crimes (which depend on witness testimonials).

So - again - cannabis convictions gives police officers an easy way to put people behind bars who would otherwise be difficult to convict (for other more serious crimes).

Yet - when this happens - people look at the statistics and get the wrong headed impression that innocent normal people are going to prison for smoking or dealing pot. When in fact the vast majority of those in prison are there because the police found it easier to stick a cannabis charge on them compared to prosecuting them (and finding witnesses) for the other crimes they suspect them of doing.

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I am not sure how true any of this is. But there is an interesting logic to it. Plus - it is the sort of logic that I never see mentioned when these endless debates take place.

Lastly - you can't compare the crime rate of one country to another. Cannabis is legal in Amsterdam - but they don't have an out of control crime epidemic (due to criminals turning to more serious crimes - and the police finding it more difficult to put away gang members). Okay fair enough. But it is silly to compare two different countries.

Look at guns for instance.

AMERICA: (HOMICIDE BY FIREARM RATE PER 100,000) 2.97

(HOMICIDE BY FIREARM RATE PER 100,000) 88.8

SWITZERLAND: (HOMICIDE BY FIREARM RATE PER 100,000) 0.77

(HOMICIDE BY FIREARM RATE PER 100,000) 45.7

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog...world-list

So even though America has nearly twice as many firearms (as a percentage of the population) as Switzerland - they also have about three and half times the number of deaths (as a percentage) from firearms.

And this is two countries with a good first world standard of living.

So my point here is that there are important cultural differences when comparing countries. And the same may be true for the legalization of cannabis.

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You have uneducated criminals making easy money from selling cannabis. Tax free as well.

What are they going to do when cannabis is for sale in every supermarket in the country? Switch to pushing harder drugs - or switch to more violent crimes.

The same goes for the police. Cannabis being illegal gives them an easy way to put criminals behind bars (who are suspected of doing more serious crimes as well). But if cannabis becomes legal - you remove an important weapon from the police in being able to easily convict criminals.

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Just throwing it out there. I may be completely wrong. These are just arguments I have have only come across once before. And it surprises me that they are not more commonly discussed. Since this is a debate which is constantly ongoing across the US and the UK.

Post: #15

(12-14-2013 11:02 PM)T and A Man Wrote:  Hemp was the most valuable crop in the world up to the 1890's

It's still a valuable crop. The seed is approx £900/ton (wheat is about £160/t ATM)

The straw is also valuable- ten times that of wheat, so about £200 per big bale. Not sure what they use it for nowadays but the farm near me has a licence to grow it.

Post: #16

When pot gets legalized, the dealers and growers end up moving onto harder drugs to push. Colorado is a prime example. I know a dealer who hates the whole legalization. He gets some medical grade stuff from Colorado and ships it east at a 400% mark up.

The dealers don't want legalization. Police and prisons don't either becuase we all know how quickly budget cuts would make the DOJ if its cash crop disappeared. It's a giant broken window fallacy and it isn't an appropriate investment of our tax dollars.

Post: #17

My dad always says this as well (and I agree), even while weed is 'legal' in my country, the supply to the coffee shops is not. It is better to keep drugs illegal (with low punishments), so criminals deal with each other, instead of kidnapping/robbing innocent people.

Post: #18

(12-15-2013 08:52 AM)frenchie Wrote:  When pot gets legalized, the dealers and growers end up moving onto harder drugs to push.

This isn't true at all. People who deal hard drugs are going to do it anyway. If someone is making money off pot and it suddenly becomes legal, there's nothing stopping them from continuing to make money from it. If it was legalised here, the first thing I'd be doing is acquiring a farm. All legalisation would really do is remove the paranoia factor from the process

Post: #19

I read a blog post about a guy in California that found a duffel bag full of weed stashed in his backyard.

He figured out that it was from someone that pulled a heist on a dispensary, or perhaps someone from a dispensary anticipating a federal raid and stashing his stock away.

Eventually he called the cops, as he didnt want to have that on his hands.

Cops counted the bags, and told him that it must be worth around 50k or so. (I dont remember the exact ammount)

So, 50k in a backpack, that cant be taxed, controlled, or regulated.

Pharmaceuticals need heavy lab equipment.

Tobacco needs huge plots of land and intensive care.

Alcohol needs equipment and knowledge.

Weed you can grow in a pot in a closet.

Thats the reason its illegal.

Post: #20

Smart.

Never thought of it like that.

The laws are in place to protect the 'system' and not the people.

A very Marxist way of looking at things.

Post: #21

Noam Chomsky gave the best explanation of why cannabis is illegal and why tobacco is legal. It's pretty convincing, and it all comes down to economics and social conditioning:

Post: #22

(12-15-2013 07:04 PM)germanico Wrote:  I read a blog post about a guy in California that found a duffel bag full of weed stashed in his backyard.

He figured out that it was from someone that pulled a heist on a dispensary, or perhaps someone from a dispensary anticipating a federal raid and stashing his stock away.

Eventually he called the cops, as he didnt want to have that on his hands.

Cops counted the bags, and told him that it must be worth around 50k or so. (I dont remember the exact ammount)

So, 50k in a backpack, that cant be taxed, controlled, or regulated.

Pharmaceuticals need heavy lab equipment.

Tobacco needs huge plots of land and intensive care.

Alcohol needs equipment and knowledge.

Weed you can grow in a pot in a closet.

Thats the reason its illegal.

You can grow tobacco in a pot in the closet. An old boy in my town grows it in his garden.

The cannabis was only valued high as it's still a very controlled market even if 'legal'. Lots of hoops and red tape for growers to jump through, full time security needs to be employed etc. It's grown for legal uses here in the UK in giant greenhouses about ten miles from me. They have five guys on security 24/7.

Besides, the value of 50k the cops gave your friend was almost certainly it's value when bagged into ounces and sold by the packet illegally. Cops always give the highest figure. You'll hear on the news, £1 million worth of cocaine seized. Yeah, when sold by the gram. Not £1 million to buy direct from Columbia, or even from a middleman in the UK.

If it was 100% legal worldwide the price and cultivation (in large fields) wouldn't be that different from tobacco. Tax would have the most impact on it's price, as it does with tobacco.

Post: #23

Yeah, and moonshine can be made in a keg in the woods.

But thats not the point.

Of course cops are going to give the high value. But even so, it would mean that that same kilo thats bought for $100 in Sonora and sold piecemeal for $1000 in LA, gives a $900 profit of which not a cent gets into ruling hands.

The thing is, since medieval times, big money was made from traficking low volume, high return merchandise that was not easily accesible to the common folk. If it where to suddenly become available, the well would dry up, Why where Tesla´s ideas for free worldwide electricity never developed?

Silk, spices, diamonds, sugar, oil... Back when there was no electric grids and everyone had a kerosene lamp, they threw gasoline away because there was no market for it. So, lets develop a market for gasoline. Meanwhile, the prototype batteries that Edison´s company developed for automotive purposes are still functional after 100 years.

Heres the post I was referring to:

What to do with $175,000 in weed found in your back yard




If you know of any other product that has 175k profit potential in such low volume and can be produced legally by anyone in their own garage, let me know because im interested.

Post: #24

(12-16-2013 02:14 PM)germanico Wrote:  Yeah, and moonshine can be made in a keg in the woods.

But thats not the point.

Of course cops are going to give the high value. But even so, it would mean that that same kilo thats bought for $100 in Sonora and sold piecemeal for $1000 in LA, gives a $900 profit of which not a cent gets into ruling hands.

The thing is, since medieval times, big money was made from traficking low volume, high return merchandise that was not easily accesible to the common folk. If it where to suddenly become available, the well would dry up, Why where Tesla´s ideas for free worldwide electricity never developed?

Silk, spices, diamonds, sugar, oil... Back when there was no electric grids and everyone had a kerosene lamp, they threw gasoline away because there was no market for it. So, lets develop a market for gasoline. Meanwhile, the prototype batteries that Edison´s company developed for automotive purposes are still functional after 100 years.

Heres the post I was referring to:

What to do with $175,000 in weed found in your back yard




If you know of any other product that has 175k profit potential in such low volume and can be produced legally by anyone in their own garage, let me know because im interested.

Yes and no.

Yes, by creating a black market through prohibition you artificially inflate the value of a given commodity.

No, Telsa's free electricity theories were not viable. If they were, some young Gates/Zuckerberg upstart would have come along and made themselves rich with them.

Also, you should know that DeBeers has cornered the market in diamonds and their prices are massively inflated as a result. Something like 40% of the world's diamonds are kept off the market by DeBeers.

Post: #25

It's only '50k in a backpack that can't be controlled or taxed' because it's illegal.

Therefore it's inflated illegal value cannot be 'the reason it's illegal'-rather, it's a product of it's illegal status.

It's illogical to suggest that ease of home cultivation is the reason it's illegal- however logic would perhaps suggest that the same ease of cultivation would prevent it from being first on any list of possible drugs for legalization. Something harder to produce would be more easily taxed.