Post: #1

I read this article recently on the following blog: http://sunshinemaryandthedragon.wordpres...ve-mating/

It´s a succint view at the effects of feminism in the relationship dynamics.
This is, of course, old news for RVF members, but it should be still be of interest, since it was written by a woman:




Women’s arrogance and the downfall of assortive mating.

Let us begin with a bit of background, since I have a wide readership that is not necessarily familiar with the idea of assortive mating and how we got to the point we are at today with marriage and divorce.

Assortive mating means that like marries like. Beautiful, talented people tend to marry other beautiful, talented people. Average people tend to marry other average people. Homely people or less intelligent people or people with serious problems tend to marry other such people.

Or it used to be that way anyhow, pre-feminism and the sexual revolution.

There is one theory which says that part of the motivation for feminism was that unattractive women wanted access to more attractive men; feminism allowed them to have this temporarily in the form of one-night stands and short-term relationships. The result of this has been that many young women have spent a significant portion of their youth “punching above their weight” in the sexual market place, which has given them a false sense of their own attractiveness as a mate, which they then attempt to carry over into the marriage market place. In short, they have become arrogant.

The result of this is that women, including Christian women, have become unwilling to marry until they are much older and have had more than a few sexual partners. This decreases their value in the marriage market; they have difficulty bonding to their husbands, and they make it more difficult for their husbands to bond to them because they are older and hardened from having already slept with other men. Their attraction cues to men are skewed because they perceive themselves as being of higher market value than they really are, and they become resentful that the men they seem to be able to attract for marriage are less attractive than what they think they deserve.

On a previous thread, Farm Boy wondered why people believe that so many of the other gender are unmarriagable.

Modern women find men unmarriageable for several reasons:

1. Due to their modern arrogance, they don’t find the men who are truly their assortive mating equivalents attractive now.

2. Many modern men are less attractive as husbands because, perceiving that they may not ever be able to marry a decent woman in our modern femininistic society, the men have lost the motivation to strive to do those things which make them attractive to women (improving their looks, athleticism, money, power, and status).

3. Feminism has given women a false sense of equality with men, making women believe that they don’t really need a husband; women don’t feel pressure to marry or stay married to less attractive men.

Men find many women unmarriageable because

1. Men are attracted to youth, but many modern women don’t seriously consider marriage until they are older.

2. Many women are less physically attractive (due to factors such as obesity, tattooing, unfeminine dress and so on)

3. Most modern women have been sexually promiscuous. Even Christian women often have slept with more than one man. Men are sexually attracted to sluts but find them less appealing for marriage.

4. Modern women lack humility and gratitude.

But assortive mating is still the way to go because it provides the greatest number of people with mates. Here is the story of a couple in my church who got the assortive mating thing right. If you would like to watch them tell their moving story in their own words, follow this link to my church’s website, click on the video and scroll to the 33:52 minute mark:

http://northridgechurch.com/talks/origins/a-savior/

The man is a recovered drug addict (thanks be to God); physically he is short, he has lost all his teeth due to his addiction, and he has lost his career. While he was in a Christian rehabilitation program, he met a woman who was also a recovering drug addict; physically she has a pretty face but she is very obese. By the power of Christ and their obedience to Him, they are in recovery from their addictions; they are also married to one another now. This is the perfect example of assortive mating: two people who have been realistic about their own value in the sexual and marriage market places have been able to find love and companionship by being honest with themselves. So long as the woman maintains her sense of gratitude and is realistic about the fact that her husband represents the best quality man she is able to attract, they should be able to have a lifelong marriage instead of living in loneliness and celibacy for the rest of their lives.

Unfortunately, after second-wave feminism and the relentless building up of girls’ self-esteem beyond all rationality, and in fact beyond all reality, most women are simply too arrogant to admit that the men a woman attracts who are willing to offer her marriage are in fact an accurate reflection of her own value in the marriage market place.

Admitting that would be extremely humbling for most women but would free them to experience peace about accepting the men who pursue them for marriage, as well as allow them to have gratitude for the presence of the man they eventually marry. A woman who feels extremely grateful for her man and understands that she is unlikely to attract a better one is highly unlikely to frivorce him.

Humility and gratitude are critical for women to have in order to marry and be contented in marriage, but both those traits are nearly absent in modern women.

When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with the humble is wisdom. Proverbs 11:2
Update 1: Donal Graeme left a wonderfully instructive comment in the thread that I want all ladies to read:

I wanted to speak up about gratitude.

From my perspective, gratitude is one of the most valuable attributes that a woman can posses. While it doesn’t affect her attractiveness, it does impact her desirability more than nearly anything else. A woman who is grateful to her man is a powerful thing, I always envy a man who can know what that feels like.

It is this sense of gratitude which makes me so fond of some of the ladies around here. Elspeth especially carries a constant aura about her of gratitude towards her husband. We like to talk around these parts about how much Respect means to a man… well, gratitude is perhaps the biggest sign of respect out there.

Sadly, it is one of the things most missing these days, and I see no indication that it is making a comeback. Which makes those few women (especially the unmarried and virtuous ones) so valuable.


His comment inspired me to declare:

Let it henceforth be known that any woman who wishes to express gratitude for something wonderful about her husband may do so freely here. It’s good for the lurking herd to read that kind of thing. You will not be accused of bragging. Our husbands saved us from lives as childless spinsters, a fate that seems like it would very hard to bear. We owe them a lot. Let us resolve to behave accordingly.

Update 2: Elspeth at Loving in the Ruins has an outstanding post, Transforming my mind as a Christian wife., on the importance of looking for the good in our husbands and praising it.

Post: #2

Wow...I can't wait to see what feminist websites do with this when they get wind of it...hahaha! In fact, we should copy paste it on as many sites as possible, grab a snack, and watch the show.

Post: #3

This really is the defining issue for men in our times.
It's the one problem that defies a simple solution. Only by embracing a mix of strategies can the intelligent man really hope to come out ahead.

Post: #4

I've noticed that a lot of these more traditionalist women in the US are from religious backgrounds. While I don't have a problem with this on a face, and I completely understand why, it bothers me, because it allows feminazis (who are predominantly atheist in nature) to paint them as religious troglodites. While I understand that a lot of RoK and RVF contributors are religious and derive a lot of strength and thought from their religious teachings, I think we could benefit from talking about it less when trying to make a point, at least in terms of basing our arguments around Biblical teachings. I don't want censorship, but basing our arguments around non-religious logic would allow a wider appeal. There are a lot of atheist men (like me) who are out there waiting to swallow the red pill, but they're not going to be swayed by religious arguments.

We have logic, and that is powerful enough.

Post: #5

Honest question to the RvF gentlemen:

How many of you guys are been with a woman that was gracious for your presence?

I've had that a few times. In fact, I've been with a few girls where I thought that gratitude was faked.

I'll be more aware of that next time.

Post: #6

Typical bitch after reading this: Wow, just Wow. What the fuckin' fuck did I just read.
So now it's womens fault?!!!!


Men: Uhhh, yeah.

Post: #7

About 1/10th of the women I've been with have really appreciated me. You can hear it when they talk. It's an amazing feeling and sometimes I wish I wasn't such a jaded bastard.

But then I read another divorce rape story and I'm like "NOPE."

Post: #8

(12-06-2013 02:35 PM)Texas_Tryhard Wrote:  I've noticed that a lot of these more traditionalist women in the US are from religious backgrounds. While I don't have a problem with this on a face, and I completely understand why, it bothers me, because it allows feminazis (who are predominantly atheist in nature) to paint them as religious troglodites. While I understand that a lot of RoK and RVF contributors are religious and derive a lot of strength and thought from their religious teachings, I think we could benefit from talking about it less when trying to make a point, at least in terms of basing our arguments around Biblical teachings. I don't want censorship, but basing our arguments around non-religious logic would allow a wider appeal. There are a lot of atheist men (like me) who are out there waiting to swallow the red pill, but they're not going to be swayed by religious arguments.

We have logic, and that is powerful enough.

I agree. I was going to forward the original article to some friends/group of ppl but I didn't because it was simply too religious for my (and my friends') tastes. If we (someone) can articulate the same message and logic without getting into the religious arena that would help.

Also, I feel like the reasons she provided could be either expanded on or added to. Being 100% redpill, I understand her point immediately, but someone who is still brainwashed might need a more comprehensive explanation.

Also, do you guys see this kind of point being made in more mainstream/widely read media, instead of some Christian women's personal blog?

Post: #9

Shit, this should be the course outline for pretty much every 'women's studies' course that exists. I also was especially pleased at the following statement

Quote:4. Modern women lack humility and gratitude.

This is something that women don't realize...hot women are the only ones that can really get away with being cunts. Well at least until they are old and crippled.

Even a fat 5 who has the common sense to say thanks, or otherwise express her appreciation has warmed my heart enough to overlook the fact that she is awful looking and not treat her like 180 lbs of breathing commodity.

However, being that way opens them up to be crushed, so being a Diva is easier on the ego...plus, maybe they dont' realize that being nice is only something men appreciate. A fellow woman will stab them in the back 5 min after being bought a latte at starbucks.

Post: #10

(12-06-2013 02:35 PM)Texas_Tryhard Wrote:  I've noticed that a lot of these more traditionalist women in the US are from religious backgrounds. While I don't have a problem with this on a face, and I completely understand why, it bothers me, because it allows feminazis (who are predominantly atheist in nature) to paint them as religious troglodites. While I understand that a lot of RoK and RVF contributors are religious and derive a lot of strength and thought from their religious teachings, I think we could benefit from talking about it less when trying to make a point, at least in terms of basing our arguments around Biblical teachings. I don't want censorship, but basing our arguments around non-religious logic would allow a wider appeal. There are a lot of atheist men (like me) who are out there waiting to swallow the red pill, but they're not going to be swayed by religious arguments.

We have logic, and that is powerful enough.

I'm no expert, but doesn't the philosophy of Humanism essentially take what are the positive morals or religion and wash out the religious bend on it? If not, the amount of philosophers who have written on morality and the 'right' way to live can provide similar guidance without religion.

Post: #11

I agree with every single word in this article. And I found this passage moving and beautiful:

Quote:But assortive mating is still the way to go because it provides the greatest number of people with mates. Here is the story of a couple in my church who got the assortive mating thing right. If you would like to watch them tell their moving story in their own words, follow this link to my church’s website, click on the video and scroll to the 33:52 minute mark:

http://northridgechurch.com/talks/origins/a-savior/

The man is a recovered drug addict (thanks be to God); physically he is short, he has lost all his teeth due to his addiction, and he has lost his career. While he was in a Christian rehabilitation program, he met a woman who was also a recovering drug addict; physically she has a pretty face but she is very obese. By the power of Christ and their obedience to Him, they are in recovery from their addictions; they are also married to one another now. This is the perfect example of assortive mating: two people who have been realistic about their own value in the sexual and marriage market places have been able to find love and companionship by being honest with themselves. So long as the woman maintains her sense of gratitude and is realistic about the fact that her husband represents the best quality man she is able to attract, they should be able to have a lifelong marriage instead of living in loneliness and celibacy for the rest of their lives.

It's beautiful because it represents unaffectedly modest and realistic thinking and feeling. This is humanity at some of its very sweetest.

It's worth noting how feminists and their progg allies endlessly whine about "empathy" and the lack thereof in "sociopaths", meaning any non-mangina men. But they wouldn't know true empathy, which the above gives a real taste of, if it hit them in their nasty mugs.

I'm not religious in the least but some of the only texts -- especially anything written by a female -- that I can read without cringing are those written by real hardcore American Christians. Funny how that works.

But yes -- perhaps the single worst thing about contemporary females is what unthinking and monstrous ingrates they are. Not only do they feel no gratitude or appreciation for the honorable beta males who provide for them and who invented, designed, and built every single thing they take for granted -- but they actively hate and despise these "boring" men and can't wait to spread their legs for the first thug badboi that comes along.

Now, this has always been female nature but it used to be held in check by society. Now it has been given free rein and the consequences are there for all to see.

Post: #12

(12-06-2013 03:58 PM)wiscanada Wrote:  

(12-06-2013 02:35 PM)Texas_Tryhard Wrote:  I've noticed that a lot of these more traditionalist women in the US are from religious backgrounds. While I don't have a problem with this on a face, and I completely understand why, it bothers me, because it allows feminazis (who are predominantly atheist in nature) to paint them as religious troglodites. While I understand that a lot of RoK and RVF contributors are religious and derive a lot of strength and thought from their religious teachings, I think we could benefit from talking about it less when trying to make a point, at least in terms of basing our arguments around Biblical teachings. I don't want censorship, but basing our arguments around non-religious logic would allow a wider appeal. There are a lot of atheist men (like me) who are out there waiting to swallow the red pill, but they're not going to be swayed by religious arguments.

We have logic, and that is powerful enough.

I'm no expert, but doesn't the philosophy of Humanism essentially take what are the positive morals or religion and wash out the religious bend on it? If not, the amount of philosophers who have written on morality and the 'right' way to live can provide similar guidance without religion.

Essentially yes. But you can be a Humanist and not religious. You can be a Humanist and religious.

You cannot be religious and non-religious (tautology). What I'm trying to say is that we can approach these arguments from a non-religious standpoint and avoid driving off those that aren't religious, or allowing our opponents to dismiss us as radical religious traditionalists.

Basically I'm trying to say that red pill thinking is not inherently based in religion, so we should stop writing as if it was.

Post: #13

I've noticed this so much in my circle. Bitches simply don't say thank you for anything, and think their asses should be kissed. They've become so used to being accommodated, they expect it and believe they're doing YOU a favor by gracing you with their presence.

Post: #14

She does a good job of describing the problem:

Quote:The result of this is that women, including Christian women, have become unwilling to marry until they are much older and have had more than a few sexual partners. This decreases their value in the marriage market; they have difficulty bonding to their husbands, and they make it more difficult for their husbands to bond to them because they are older and hardened from having already slept with other men. Their attraction cues to men are skewed because they perceive themselves as being of higher market value than they really are, and they become resentful that the men they seem to be able to attract for marriage are less attractive than what they think they deserve.

But her solution is hopelessly delusional:

Quote:Unfortunately, after second-wave feminism and the relentless building up of girls’ self-esteem beyond all rationality, and in fact beyond all reality, most women are simply too arrogant to admit that the men a woman attracts who are willing to offer her marriage are in fact an accurate reflection of her own value in the marriage market place.

Admitting that would be extremely humbling for most women but would free them to experience peace about accepting the men who pursue them for marriage, as well as allow them to have gratitude for the presence of the man they eventually marry. A woman who feels extremely grateful for her man and understands that she is unlikely to attract a better one is highly unlikely to frivorce him.

Like Americunts are going to suddenly "woman up" and realize hard working beta males are their best option. No chance in Hell.

I think this girl is a little bit too insulated in her Midwest bible thumping pre-1980 marriage to realize how the young girls in big cities are acting. Her cries are falling on deaf ears with that bunch.

Post: #15

market forces, market forces, all is market forces. if men didn't tolerate princess attitude women wouldn't display it. For me the interesting question is why do we tolerate it, not a rhetorical question, seriously.

My answer is, I guess, I'm so cynical now I view Western ( 1st world) women as fucking machines. They can't feel anything for you unless you're a famous or natural Alpha (I'm not) , so I don't feel anything for them.

Who cares if they're polite, if they were polite it would be the politeness of a robot--meaningless.

Post: #16

Timoteo - is it the womans fault or betas and white knights? Its the parents fault when a kid is a brat.

Post: #17

(12-07-2013 02:02 AM)houston Wrote:  Timoteo - is it the womans fault or betas and white knights? Its the parents fault when a kid is a brat.

There's no real point source of "fault", it's just the way the mutual reinforcers are set up at this point in culture.

Just like it's no one's "fault" when new Alpha lions take over and kill the cubs of the previous Alphas.

Post: #18

I seriously think 99% or the bullshit from women is because guys don't put them in check or walk away when they act up.

Post: #19

The US also has very uneven ratios in the 18-40 age range. If it were the other way around - more women would actually care to stay fit and not blindly follow whatever ridiculous fodder the feminists are pushing now.

I really don't blame the feminists as much as most do here, there's a problem when you have too many men and lack of prostitution, a woman knows simply by being a woman (no matter how fat she is) there's at least 2 men available for her in the short term.

Post: #20

(12-06-2013 06:49 PM)Timoteo Wrote:  I've noticed this so much in my circle. Bitches simply don't say thank you for anything, and think their asses should be kissed. They've become so used to being accommodated, they expect it and believe they're doing YOU a favor by gracing you with their presence.

This really is true. It's human nature to help people out in need, but you have to go against that with women today. I keep having to relearn this lesson.

This isn't limited to the realm of relationships either. One of my female friends who lives in a different part of the country had a difficult worker's comp issue. So almost without thinking I recommended a lawyer I know who is considered the best. Without my recommendation, there is no way she would have won the case going in without an attorney (her original plan). My lawyer worked a near-miracle and got her the worker's comp first time around. In her type of case 80 percent don't get approved on the first try.

In the months leading up to the trial, she was in panic mode and constantly called me, asking endless qu's about the lawyer and her case.

So when she won her case did she call to say thanks? NO! Of course not! She wrote me an email complaining she didn't get "back pay."

In other words, if it wasn't for me, she would probably have lost her house, her car and her entire life, but her main focus was on why she didn't get a very small amount of money in *addition* to the major sum she got against all odds.

Never again.

Post: #21

^ What a horrible friend.

I would say the root cause of ingratitude (and the inverse of gratitude) is entitlement. It makes no sense to be thankful for something that you deserve. Drawing the connection from entitlement to women would be preaching to the choir. But wise and mature individuals recognize that they are not entitled to anything. Consequently, they are grateful for everything. You see this in people who have just had a near-death experience.

Quote:How many of you guys are been with a woman that was gracious for your presence?

I've experienced this a couple of times. The first time felt great and I took it for granted. But then I saw just how quickly that gratitude turns into annoyance after I lost frame (learned all of this after the fact). The next time I experienced it, all I could think about was the line "no matter how good looking she is, someone somewhere is sick of her shit". Had it confirmed to me when a mutual friend told me about all of her beta orbiters and the way she treated them (spoiler alert: like bird shit).

Post: #22

(12-07-2013 03:51 AM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  

(12-06-2013 06:49 PM)Timoteo Wrote:  I've noticed this so much in my circle. Bitches simply don't say thank you for anything, and think their asses should be kissed. They've become so used to being accommodated, they expect it and believe they're doing YOU a favor by gracing you with their presence.

This really is true. It's human nature to help people out in need, but you have to go against that with women today. I keep having to relearn this lesson.

This isn't limited to the realm of relationships either. One of my female friends who lives in a different part of the country had a difficult worker's comp issue. So almost without thinking I recommended a lawyer I know who is considered the best. Without my recommendation, there is no way she would have won the case going in without an attorney (her original plan). My lawyer worked a near-miracle and got her the worker's comp first time around. In her type of case 80 percent don't get approved on the first try.

In the months leading up to the trial, she was in panic mode and constantly called me, asking endless qu's about the lawyer and her case.

So when she won her case did she call to say thanks? NO! Of course not! She wrote me an email complaining she didn't get "back pay."

In other words, if it wasn't for me, she would probably have lost her house, her car and her entire life, but her main focus was on why she didn't get a very small amount of money in *addition* to the major sum she got against all odds.

Never again.

That was actually going to be my next point. Not only are they not grateful for the way you've treated them, or what you may have done for them, but they find room for COMPLAINT on top of it. Nothing's good enough. Most do pretty much nothing for anyone other than themselves, yet find fault with almost everyone else around them, even someone that's reached out to them in some way. Over the years this has been one of my personal gauges for not only women I spend intimate time with, but women in a social circle that I'm around. If I'm hearing a lot of that negativity and nitpicking, I'm gone.

Post: #23

(12-07-2013 02:05 AM)houston Wrote:  I seriously think 99% or the bullshit from women is because guys don't put them in check or walk away when they act up.

I think male enabling is a small portion of the problem, but it's mostly what iknowexactly states - our culture/society is simply set up that way from the time they enter school, so the machine spits them out largely that way. I don't disagree that dudes need to check nonsense when they encounter it, but I also don't think it'll have much effect. There's always another simp that'll indulge it.

Post: #24

There are really a couple of different things going on here which create a terrible situation for men in the U.S.:

(12-07-2013 02:22 AM)la_mode Wrote:  The US also has very uneven ratios in the 18-40 age range. If it were the other way around - more women would actually care to stay fit and not blindly follow whatever ridiculous fodder the feminists are pushing now.

I really don't blame the feminists as much as most do here, there's a problem when you have too many men and lack of prostitution, a woman knows simply by being a woman (no matter how fat she is) there's at least 2 men available for her in the short term.

The supply of available sex to most men is diminished because there aren't enough women in the sexually active age brackets, and there are no legitimate ways for American men to get sex from P4P or prostitution. Combine this with something that was left in the comments:

Quote:imnobody00 October 5, 2013 at 10:04 pm
@deti

Men in general would be a lot less obsessed with sex if it weren’t so damn difficult to get, risky, expensive in terms of the investment and commitment it can demand, and easy to lose.

Yes, this is why American men are so obsessed with sex. I haven’t seen this in Latin America. Every man loves sex, of course. But it’s not the kind of desperation you feel in American men who are willing to DO ANYTHING for sex, even to flatter morbidly obese women.

I have rejected sex several times for women I didn’t like or that behaved in a way I didn’t approve, knowing that something better was going to come (and it did). But it seems to me that American men live in a state of permanent deprivation.

@FuzzieWuzzie

Deti, men being starved for sex in not a first world problem ImanobodyOO chimed in with the observation that it is not true in Latin America. He even noted that past generations obsessed with food were so for the lack of it sometime in thsir life.
Plainly, the SMP/MMP is manipulated and men are not the beneficiary.

Exactly.

I wonder if the reason is that American women are really cold (I wonder if centuries of Puritanism and Victorianism have done that). They can go for long periods of time without sex. So they can use sex as a weapon. Latin American women, when they are in a relationship, are not able to go without sex for too long (but they can go without if they don’t have a relationship, go figure). They crave sex. But I read an article on the web with American women saying something like “Sex? Boring. I’d rather have a piece of cake”.

Putting these two ideas together we see that the problem is compounded because the pool of sexually active women is also busy with shopping, careers, buying lattés at Starbucks, pounding away at their phones, etc. Sex is low on the priority list for all but the sluttiest of American women. They see it as something a guy has to badger them into doing once in awhile, so they lay there like a dead fish and let him get a nut off so he'll shut up and they can get back to watching some dumb series on Netflix.

These two issues together are creating a lot of men who honestly couldn't give a shit about their society and becoming varying degrees of "losers" or MGTOW types. When the social contract is broken, why would someone want to go through years of school and training, work long hours, take out mortgages and all that shit when they can't even get laid? This is probably why the spree killer is an American phenomenon. Also, to a lesser degree you're going to start seeing more successful men watch the U.S. collapse while they're poolside and saying "fuck it, let it burn."

Post: #25

(12-06-2013 02:35 PM)Texas_Tryhard Wrote:  I've noticed that a lot of these more traditionalist women in the US are from religious backgrounds. While I don't have a problem with this on a face, and I completely understand why, it bothers me, because it allows feminazis (who are predominantly atheist in nature) to paint them as religious troglodites. While I understand that a lot of RoK and RVF contributors are religious and derive a lot of strength and thought from their religious teachings, I think we could benefit from talking about it less when trying to make a point, at least in terms of basing our arguments around Biblical teachings. I don't want censorship, but basing our arguments around non-religious logic would allow a wider appeal. There are a lot of atheist men (like me) who are out there waiting to swallow the red pill, but they're not going to be swayed by religious arguments.

We have logic, and that is powerful enough.

I second this.

I'm an atheist myself and in some cases I even consider myself anti-religious, but when I end up in a discussion or fight with the feminazis, more often than not do I notice that I get the most support from religious men. Most of the atheist men I know are pussy-whipped male feminist.

I think we could get more atheists on our side if we would draw more attention to the actual logic in the arguments against feminism, and draw less attention to where the arguments come from.