Post: #1

Article from the NYT seems to cast some light on this question:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/scienc....html?_r=0

Quote:Americans spend an estimated $5 billion a year on unproven herbal supplements that promise everything from fighting off colds to curbing hot flashes and boosting memory. But now there is a new reason for supplement buyers to beware: DNA tests show that many pills labeled as healing herbs are little more than powdered rice and weeds.

Quote:Canadian researchers tested 44 bottles of popular supplements sold by 12 companies. They found that many were not what they claimed to be, and that pills labeled as popular herbs were often diluted — or replaced entirely — by cheap fillers like soybean, wheat and rice.

Quote: Of 44 herbal supplements tested, one-third showed outright substitution, meaning there was no trace of the plant advertised on the bottle — only another plant in its place.

I have tried various supplements, many recommended by people on this forum, and I can't say I have ever felt any effect even after chronic use. Perhaps that is my own form of confirmation bias, but the report above suggests that there is a significant chance that what you're buying is not what you're getting. My concern regarding that is not so much from a health perspective but from a fraud perspective: I want to get what I paid for. In contrast, if I take an ibuprofen, my headache goes away.

Post: #2

It does no good for the NYT to call out a bunch of brands as frauds, and then not tell us which brands they are.

Post: #3

Some herbals are great, but yes... there also many crappy brands / products out there.

Do your research on the herb firstly (studies, anecdotal reports) and then be sure that you are getting a 'standardized extract' so that you know exactly how many mg's of the active ingredient is present.

Post: #4

(11-04-2013 04:51 PM)007 Wrote:  Some herbals are great, but yes... there also many crappy brands / products out there.

Which are good, which are bad?

Post: #5

Herbs are awesome. I regularly use thyme, cilantro, oregano, marijuana, mint, coriander, rosemary, etc.

However, "Herbal Supplements"???

I don't even know what that means???

Post: #6

Gio, a herbal supplement is just a supplement (it is not the raw plant itself, which is what you're talking about). Anything not approved by the FDA but alleged to give some kind of benefit by virtue of being derived from some kind of plant that has some active ingredient in there. Like those capsules that say they will improve your libido or whatever and are full of some horny goat weed and some other shit (for example).

I guess one criticism of the NYT study is that what they sell is an extract of the plant sprayed onto an inert material (like rice), so you will not get any plant DNA because they use an extract and not the whole plant. However, this begs the question as to whether you can even get the benefit from a plant extract vs. the whole plant.

I have personally not experienced anything from taking supplements, but maybe others have. I just suspect the industry is rife with this fraud because there is a lot of money to be made by not putting in the correct ingredients.

Post: #7

Makes me think of that shitty pyramid scam herbalife which has started to take off over here, especially with the fat ugly birds. People are always looking for a shortcut in life when little actually exist. You have to work hard in live to achieve your goals or you will be left behind.

Post: #8

Yes, plenty of cheap supplements are junk and don't even contain the actual compounds they claim to contain. Some of the cheaper brands have no quality control whatsoever.

Still other supplements are not junk in that way but are useless because the formulation they use is not well absorbed by the body.

However, there are also great supplements out there that use optimized formulations and have stringent quality control and they can be highly effective.

Source Naturals is a generally high quality, reliable brand. Other decent brands are Nature's Way, NOW Foods, Twinlab, Natural Factors. But again, while you need a reputable brand for quality control, that's not all there is to it.

There is not much more one can say in general. It's more useful to discuss specific supplements and the optimal formulation of each (and whether it's useful at all and if so in what context). I think that for most guys there is no need to take more than a small number of supplements, if any. But they do have their place and can be extremely useful in some contexts.

Post: #9

(11-04-2013 10:18 AM)Bolthouse Wrote:  It does no good for the NYT to call out a bunch of brands as frauds, and then not tell us which brands they are.

The NYT isn't interested in helping its readers know which herbal supplement brands are legit and which aren't.

That's beneath them, as far as they're concerned. They're not Consumer Reports.

The Times just publishes stories like this to justify increased FDA regulation.

Notice how they frame the story:

Quote:But policing the supplement industry is a special challenge. The F.D.A. requires that companies test the products they sell to make sure that they are safe. But the system essentially operates on the honor code. Unlike prescription drugs, supplements are generally considered safe until proved otherwise.

Under a 1994 law, they can be sold and marketed with little regulatory oversight, and they are pulled from shelves generally only after complaints of serious injury. The F.D.A. audits a small number of companies, but even industry representatives say more oversight is needed...

Dr. Baker called the state of supplement regulation “the Wild West,” and said most consumers had no idea how few safeguards were in place. “If you had a child who was sick and three out of 10 penicillin pills were fake, everybody would be up in arms,” Dr. Baker said. “But it’s O.K. to buy a supplement where three out of 10 pills are fake. I don’t understand it. Why does this industry get away with that?”

For the NYT more regulation is always the answer.

Why would they want to publicize which supplement brands actually deliver the goods? Hell, that would allow consumers to make informed purchases without the federal government getting involved. A heretical thought.

Post: #10

With so many herbal supplements out there it's impossible to say which ones are good and which ones are bad. I can only comment on the herbal based supplements that I use on a daily basis.

Fadogia Agrestis and Bulgarian tribulus: I use these in conjunction with my trt regime and they keep the balls full and working very well and also gives you porno style huge loads.

Liv52, herbal liver detoxifier. You can feel this working very quickly. If you want to sober up from being piss drunk then pop down 10 of these and 3 hours later you will be right as rain. Clears your liver out very well!

(11-04-2013 04:54 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(11-04-2013 04:51 PM)007 Wrote:  Some herbals are great, but yes... there also many crappy brands / products out there.

Which are good, which are bad?

Post: #11

(11-05-2013 12:26 PM)007 Wrote:  With so many herbal supplements out there it's impossible to say which ones are good and which ones are bad. I can only comment on the herbal based supplements that I use on a daily basis.

Fadogia Agrestis and Bulgarian tribulus: I use these in conjunction with my trt regime and they keep the balls full and working very well and also gives you porno style huge loads.

Liv52, herbal liver detoxifier. You can feel this working very quickly. If you want to sober up from being piss drunk then pop down 10 of these and 3 hours later you will be right as rain. Clears your liver out very well!

(11-04-2013 04:54 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(11-04-2013 04:51 PM)007 Wrote:  Some herbals are great, but yes... there also many crappy brands / products out there.

Which are good, which are bad?

What brands?

Post: #12

Its just like anything. The more you process something the more shit it will be. "Herbal Supplements" are a processed product and thus you have to be aware to seek out the best quality you can in the product. For companies that have a skin in the game and a long tradition reputation goes a long way. If you shop at a good store the staff/owner should direct you to which brands are best and if he has his shit together he wont sell garbage brands with dodgy track records. Online you have websites that offer good customer reviews and you can get a idea of the effectiveness of a product.

The thing is is that people whom are searching for that 'quick-fix' in a pill won't have the patience to follow those steps and thus will take in sawdust from China which will claim to help your joints or some crap like that. Supplements and Vitamins do not face the same testing as pharmaceutical products but as any product they have to list their ingredients. The quality of those ingredients might be suspect but you should know really quick when a product is shit.

Most herbal supplements should not have more then 3 ingredients if its just one pure herb in the pill.

Here is the Ingredient list for NOW FOODS MACA for a example:

Quote:Ingredients:
Maca (Lepidium meyenii) (Root)

Other Ingredients:
Gelatin (capsule) and magnesium stearate (vegetable source).
Contains no sugar, salt, starch, yeast, wheat, gluten, corn, soy, milk, egg, shellfish, or preservatives.