Post: #1

67 year old unemployed pharmacist jailed because he "should" have $4000 per month to pay ex wife.

It's the nightmare of "imputed income" A bitchy female judge in Massachusetts ( probably an ugly neglected bitch) told him "You're a success, you should have the money " because he had a startup several years ago which failed.


He provided copies of the unsuccessful applications to the pharmacies where he applied. There's no reason or rules of evidence in family court.
He was a Marine veteran, let away in chains because he "should" have money. Presumption of guilt or hiding assets. He's half Cherokee and fled to a
reservation in the West so he won't be arrested in Massachusetts.


She violated the rule that after retirement age, the judge is supposed to provide a written explanation why a payer should have to keep providing alimony

http://goo.gl/qfBeUN

Post: #2

The grand irony in all of this is that if a married man is unable to find work to support his family, everyone is so supportive. There are newspaper articles calling for help for the family, highlighting his tenaciousness and hard work, handouts and donations, etc.

If the man is divorced and can't find work, though, he is automatically a deadbeat loser who deserves to be raped in prison. It doesn't matter if his wife was a psycho who kicked him out and/or if he really can't find any work, he has to be the bad guy. In the west, the status "divorced" is like a giant laser dot painted on your chest upon a "please shoot me" sign.

I hope this shitty feminist civilization collapses soon so everyone can get back to their normal lives.

Post: #3

Sounds and looks a lot like slavery.

Post: #4

Why is it that you can't be jailed for failing to pay a debt, but can be jailed for failing to pay alimony?

Isn't marriage just a contract like any other?

Post: #5

From my understanding, having skipped on some student loans when I moved abroad:
Debts are typically private and collected through agencies (unless its Federal; even most states use private agencies to collect), alimony/child support are enforced through the court system.

The most a debt collection agency can do is have your wages garnished to a maximum of $200-$300 per month, I think. It's a certain variable x the minimum wage. Withholding income tax is another option.

Post: #6

It's worse in family court. If you work a job and it's off the books or if you fail to show proof of income the judge will use salary.com as a basis for what someone with your job title in your area should be making and use it to calculate alimony and child support. I've seen it happen in court. That website always overinflates salaries.

Lose your job and receiving unemployment? The state doesn't care. They don't lower your payments. They still take the full amount from you every week. Good luck trying to cover rent on 60% of what you were making.

Post: #7

I am a bit extreme - in that I really don't have any sympathy for guys who get married, and then fucked in the divorce courts.

You are playing with fire when you get married - and if you get burned you can't say you were not warned.

But - am I going too far? Do you think guys deserve sympathy even though getting married in the west is idiotic?

It is hard to figure out how much I should care when guys are determined to make such shitty decisions. But I am a little extreme (I admit that) - so I am wondering if others take a less harsh view?

Post: #8

(10-20-2013 09:51 AM)cardguy Wrote:  I am a bit extreme - in that I really don't have any sympathy for guys who get married, and then fucked in the divorce courts.

You are playing with fire when you get married - and if you get burned you can't say you were not warned.

But - am I going too far? Do you think guys deserve sympathy even though getting married in the west is idiotic?

It is hard to figure out how much I should care when guys are determined to make such shitty decisions. But I am a little extreme (I admit that) - so I am wondering if others take a less harsh view?

I am sympathetic to them because what we know does not seem to be the public knowledge. The media and word of mouth is dominated by the narrative of those jerk-asshole-rapist abusive husbands leaving their poor innocent wives without a penny. When that's all that you hear, it's very easy to not be worried about divorce court horror stories, because then you view them as anomalies rather than the system working as intended.

In 10 years, though, given how much prevalent these stories are becoming and how much the manosphere is growing in influence, there will be absolutely no excuse for the common man to not have considered this while getting married. We have already passed this threshold with nice guys and game denialists.

Post: #9

(10-20-2013 09:51 AM)cardguy Wrote:  I am a bit extreme - in that I really don't have any sympathy for guys who get married, and then fucked in the divorce courts.

You are playing with fire when you get married - and if you get burned you can't say you were not warned.

But - am I going too far? Do you think guys deserve sympathy even though getting married in the west is idiotic?

It is hard to figure out how much I should care when guys are determined to make such shitty decisions. But I am a little extreme (I admit that) - so I am wondering if others take a less harsh view?

Actually, this is arguably the reason why these laws exist in the first place.

And why there's so little debate over child support/alimony laws.

Guys just don't have much sympathy for other guys. It's always the other guy who's getting screwed.

Post: #10

The best hope to change is these laws is going to be women not men.

Women who marry divorced men who pay alimony to their ex wives are outraged about the unfairness of their household income going to pay these women.

Quote:Helping her husband make alimony payments to his ex forced Jeanie Hitner to take on a second job. Both Massachusetts women now say they wish they'd never gotten married.

Welcome to the 2nd Wives Club.

The club, which claims 70 members and counting, consists mostly of married women who say that Massachusetts judges' rulings forced them to contribute to alimony payments for their partners' ex-wives. Together with its parent group, Mass Alimony Reform, the club is lobbying the state legislature to stop that practice and institute several reforms to alimony law.

Quote:"I was absolutely horrified that I was now responsible for a portion of the support of his first wife," she said. On the day of the judge's alimony ruling in her husband's case, Scanlan said, "I left the court house and just couldn't believe that such a thing was possible."

Quote:Unlike child support statutes, state laws on alimony are often vague, said Andrea Carroll, a law professor at Louisiana State University

Post: #11

cardguy, it's not so much about this point of view being extreme or otherwise as about it being unrealistic.

Most men eventually want to get married and have a family. They're not wrong to want it, it's a very sensible way to structure one's life and most men eventually start feeling miserable when they're alone and don't have a female companion. If a marriage is halfway good, there are also the practical advantages of guaranteed sex, cooking, and not having to do all sorts of chores that men usually find tedious, and increasingly so as they get older. And of course most men eventually want to have children and pass their genes and knowledge to the next generation.

There are some men who are, by nature, confirmed bachelors but one would always do well to remember that it's a tiny minority. Even if you happen be part of that minority, don't lose sight of the fact the most men aren't and it's not wrong that they aren't, it's simply their nature.

So you can't just say that since everyone can see that marriage in the West has become a kind of nightmare -- which it has -- men should just accept it and GTOW (Go Their Own Way for you lurkers). It doesn't work like that, it's not like saying well landlines are obsolete so just use a cellphone or whatever. You're talking about a very fundamental human need. These things that make marriage such a nightmarish proposition are a real problem, and the men who have to suffer the consequences deserve every bit of our sympathy, and indeed, support.

Post: #12

Cardguy,

I had no idea how bad the laws are when I got married 10 years ago. I have gotten lucky because my marriage is strong and happy. But if had any idea back then the risks I was taking, I would not have done it.

Most guys just don't have a clue.

Post: #13

(10-20-2013 04:31 PM)Consul Wrote:  Cardguy,

I had no idea how bad the laws are when I got married 10 years ago. I have gotten lucky because my marriage is strong and happy. But if had idea back then the risks I was taking, I would not have done it.

Most guys just don't have a clue.

Most guys don't have game and are emotionally stunted as teenagers.

Learning game and the nature of women makes them manageable creatures where some form of understanding can be had.

The majority of guys who fail to take risks in the dating market or worse never grow up and understand what makes women tick will always fall prey to the hypergamous nature of women.

Consequently, a women that tries to control a man's masculinity will neither get a masculine man nor be be satisfied with the type of man that will allow her to control him.

Post: #14

I didnt know the husband has to pay for his wifes divorce lawyer haha wow.

Post: #15

(10-20-2013 08:00 AM)Andy_B Wrote:  Why is it that you can't be jailed for failing to pay a debt, but can be jailed for failing to pay alimony?

Isn't marriage just a contract like any other?

Alimony is a court Order, so failure to pay alimony isn't just failure to pay a debt, but is also failure to obey a court Order. Since failure to pay alimony is a civil matter, the payor/debtor should always request a "purge provision" in order to avoid having to go to jail. A purge provision basically states that any jail sentence will be stayed if the person found in contempt pays a specific sum of money, often a very reasonable amount.

Post: #16

It's really just "peer pressure." It's the same thing as going to college and paying 60k a year for an art history degree because, "That's what everyone does." Yeah, I understand that there are structural differences to the two types of debt.

The powers that be want as much money as possible in the hands of women because they spend more money. Think about it. Probably 9 out of 10 advertisements on television are geared towards women. I think in order for this stuff to change, there needs to be more organized political activism and straight up lobbying. That's how laws get passed. There should be a Men's Bill of Rights, and organized voting on men's issues like women vote on abortion. I don't think like minded individuals like us taking steps to avoid being married will change anything.

Post: #17

Debtors' prisons are alive and well in the US.
They just call them by other, more genteel, names now than in the good ol' days.

Post: #18

(10-20-2013 06:16 PM)Merenguero Wrote:  Alimony is a court Order, so failure to pay alimony isn't just failure to pay a debt, but is also failure to obey a court Order. Since failure to pay alimony is a civil matter, the payor/debtor should always request a "purge provision" in order to avoid having to go to jail. A purge provision basically states that any jail sentence will be stayed if the person found in contempt pays a specific sum of money, often a very reasonable amount.

You know the imputed income thing is bogus, but I get the distinct impression that many people really have just sub-standard legal advice...and good legal advice can make all the difference in the world. Hell, I know of a partner in a law firm (who you would think is very savvy) that was screwed in MA on this type of thing due to poor work by his divorce attorney. Now, why it all has to be so complex is a different matter altogether. I'd be really interested in knowing what divorce proceedings are like in other countries.

Post: #19

(10-20-2013 07:39 PM)Menace Wrote:  

(10-20-2013 06:16 PM)Merenguero Wrote:  Alimony is a court Order, so failure to pay alimony isn't just failure to pay a debt, but is also failure to obey a court Order. Since failure to pay alimony is a civil matter, the payor/debtor should always request a "purge provision" in order to avoid having to go to jail. A purge provision basically states that any jail sentence will be stayed if the person found in contempt pays a specific sum of money, often a very reasonable amount.

You know the imputed income thing is bogus, but I get the distinct impression that many people really have just sub-standard legal advice...and good legal advice can make all the difference in the world. Hell, I know of a partner in a law firm (who you would think is very savvy) that was screwed in MA on this type of thing due to poor work by his divorce attorney. Now, why it all has to be so complex is a different matter altogether. I'd be really interested in knowing what divorce proceedings are like in other countries.

This is where I was leaning as well. I am completely speculating but I wonder how many of these complete family court disasters are due to pro se representation or shitty lawyers. I think alot of crap or lazy lawyers practice family law because its easy and there are alot of clients. I interviewed 5 different lawyers before I found a family law laywer I liked, that seemed to give half a crap and know his stuff.

Post: #20

(10-20-2013 09:51 AM)cardguy Wrote:  I am a bit extreme - in that I really don't have any sympathy for guys who get married, and then fucked in the divorce courts.

You are playing with fire when you get married - and if you get burned you can't say you were not warned.

But - am I going too far? Do you think guys deserve sympathy even though getting married in the west is idiotic?

It is hard to figure out how much I should care when guys are determined to make such shitty decisions. But I am a little extreme (I admit that) - so I am wondering if others take a less harsh view?

I disagree with what you say. What about the men who got married before the internet? In the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s?

Who warned them?

I understand your sentiment - but still - you paint too many men with the same brush.

Wald

Post: #21

(10-20-2013 09:51 AM)cardguy Wrote:  I am a bit extreme - in that I really don't have any sympathy for guys who get married, and then fucked in the divorce courts.

You are playing with fire when you get married - and if you get burned you can't say you were not warned.

But - am I going too far? Do you think guys deserve sympathy even though getting married in the west is idiotic?

It is hard to figure out how much I should care when guys are determined to make such shitty decisions. But I am a little extreme (I admit that) - so I am wondering if others take a less harsh view?

I think that you are being too calloused and not having very much empathy.

Being duped into marriage is pretty easy even for guys that "know" better.

The complexity of marriage laws and the whims of the courts are things most guys know nothing about. Most men that intend to get married aren't planning for failure in their marriage, and don't actively learn about what "might" happen. Plus, they have the notion that the courts are reasonable and fair and it's only some "deadbeat" or "abusive jerk" that gets screwed over.

Just in personal relationships without being married I've put a level of trust in a woman and have seen that come to backfire years later in unforeseen ways.

The guy that's getting married is usually too young to have had any of his close friends get divorce raped.

I can see not having much sympathy for a guy that gets REMARRIED but for these young guys, I think you're being a bit harsh.

Post: #22

To me, it's pretty simple.

I don't think any man should be sent to prison for having no game. For being beta.

Any society that makes it a policy of enslaving and locking up men on account of debts to be paid, at the end of the day, because they did not make their wives wet anymore is going down the proverbial tubes.

Post: #23

As others have pointed out, the guys getting married may be too young and naive to know any better. Add to that the heavy social/family pressure to do the right thing and to "grow up or man up" ( God I loathe that expression with passion!) and you obtain a perfect candidate for the proverbial slaughter house that is the divorce/family court down the road.

However, with the manosphere spreading, more and more of men are being exposed to the cold ugly truth. So there is hope that this non sense will collapse on itself when fewer and fewer men are saying "I do".

For anyone who has a desire to have a family in a healthy environment the only viable option is to do so outside of the Anglosphere world and into countries which are traditional and male dominated like in SEA, South America or Africa. Getting married and having kids with a western woman in the western world, no matter how sweet, sexy and cool she may be, is simply akin to financial suicide.

Post: #24

(10-20-2013 06:26 PM)LowerCaseG Wrote:  It's really just "peer pressure." It's the same thing as going to college and paying 60k a year for an art history degree because, "That's what everyone does." Yeah, I understand that there are structural differences to the two types of debt.

The powers that be want as much money as possible in the hands of women because they spend more money. Think about it. Probably 9 out of 10 advertisements on television are geared towards women. I think in order for this stuff to change, there needs to be more organized political activism and straight up lobbying. That's how laws get passed. There should be a Men's Bill of Rights, and organized voting on men's issues like women vote on abortion. I don't think like minded individuals like us taking steps to avoid being married will change anything.

In all fairness, marriage is a great deal if you get lucky and find a loving, submissive, attractive woman who admires you. There's a lot of social science research proving that men live longer, are healthier, make more money, and generally have a much higher level of well-being if they are happily married. That's the road I'm on -- for now, anyway.

The problem is that marriage under current law is not only high-reward, it is also extremely high-risk. If she decides to ruin your life, she definitely can. Then, you're much worse off than if you never married at all. I view it as an "all or nothing" type risk. I jumped in back before I realized the risk involved, but I've come out the other side just fine. My wife is attractive, submissive, a good wife and mother, and respects and supports me. I hit the jackpot.

Post: #25

(10-20-2013 09:51 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

(10-20-2013 09:51 AM)cardguy Wrote:  I am a bit extreme - in that I really don't have any sympathy for guys who get married, and then fucked in the divorce courts.

You are playing with fire when you get married - and if you get burned you can't say you were not warned.

But - am I going too far? Do you think guys deserve sympathy even though getting married in the west is idiotic?

It is hard to figure out how much I should care when guys are determined to make such shitty decisions. But I am a little extreme (I admit that) - so I am wondering if others take a less harsh view?

I think that you are being too calloused and not having very much empathy.

Being duped into marriage is pretty easy even for guys that "know" better.

The complexity of marriage laws and the whims of the courts are things most guys know nothing about. Most men that intend to get married aren't planning for failure in their marriage, and don't actively learn about what "might" happen. Plus, they have the notion that the courts are reasonable and fair and it's only some "deadbeat" or "abusive jerk" that gets screwed over.

Just in personal relationships without being married I've put a level of trust in a woman and have seen that come to backfire years later in unforeseen ways.

The guy that's getting married is usually too young to have had any of his close friends get divorce raped.

I can see not having much sympathy for a guy that gets REMARRIED but for these young guys, I think you're being a bit harsh.

I agree with this comment by Fisto.

The guys who don't deserve sympathy are the Mark Minters of the world. I'm interested to see what happens to his second marriage.