Post: #51

How is the job market for C++ now a days?

I've picked up a book recently, I want to get into programming.

Post: #52

To become a Python developer [employed or freelance] should you learn HTML, CSS, JavaScript, SQL first or is it possible to dive into the python?

Post: #53

(01-23-2016 07:14 AM)XXL Wrote:  To become a Python developer [employed or freelance] should you learn HTML, CSS, JavaScript, SQL first or is it possible to dive into the python?

Learn HTML CSS enough so that you can setup a page that has a form, and a page that displays the results of the server fetch.

It does not have to be fancy, and you can learn enough in a day or two to get the job done. Hell it doesn't even need CSS. And you absolutely do not need JavaScript unless you want to do some client side form validation (making sure a user enters at least 8 characters for a password for example).

so just HTML, and just extremely basic HTML is needed.

SQL - you need some type of database knowledge.

So just jump straight into the Python. when you get to the point where you need to serve forms from a webpage, you can pick up the basic HTML very quickly. Same for the Database stuff.


As an aside: I hate Python. That indented statement syntax annoys the shit out of me. Programs break and I have to go through and look for bugs and look for out of place indents. It's annoying and I just want to wrap my blocks of code in curly braces like every other language

Post: #54

Also: for those thinking programming , just get out there and do it. Think of your own projects and go from there.

Most college graduates can't program there way out of a paper bag. They know how to apply the basics of many programming languages to simple sricpts or quick jobs, but if they were told go solo on a new project they would fail miserably. The simple fact that the fizz buzz tests exists shows you this. And yes, I know many college seniors that would struggle with fizzbuzz, when it should take a marginally competent programmer less than 5 minutes to complete.

Focus on a language or stack, put some effort into your own project, and you will be on par or better than your average college graduate in about a year.

Post: #55

(01-23-2016 08:34 AM)AntiTrace Wrote:  Also: for those thinking programming , just get out there and do it. Think of your own projects and go from there.

Most college graduates can't program there way out of a paper bag. They know how to apply the basics of many programming languages to simple sricpts or quick jobs, but if they were told go solo on a new project they would fail miserably. The simple fact that the fizz buzz tests exists shows you this. And yes, I know many college seniors that would struggle with fizzbuzz, when it should take a marginally competent programmer less than 5 minutes to complete.

Focus on a language or stack, put some effort into your own project, and you will be on par or better than your average college graduate in about a year.

haha I had to try it, I think it took me around 5 minutes to complete it, here it is in JS:
I haven't learned programming in college, just on my own
for (i = 1; i < 101; i++) {
if (i % 3 === 0) {
console.log("Fizz")
}
if (i % 5 === 0) {
console.log("Buzz")
}
if (i % 3 === 0 && i % 5 === 0) {
console.log("FizzBuzz")
}
console.log(i)
}

Edit: now the prefect version took me like 15 minutes:

for (i = 1; i < 101; i++) {
if (i % 3 === 0) {
if ( i % 5 === 0) {
console.log("FizzBuzz " + i)
}
else console.log("Fizz " + i)
}
else if (i % 5 === 0) {
console.log("Buzz " + i)
}
else console.log(i)
}

Post: #56

(01-23-2016 11:14 AM)evilhei Wrote:  

(01-23-2016 08:34 AM)AntiTrace Wrote:  Also: for those thinking programming , just get out there and do it. Think of your own projects and go from there.

Most college graduates can't program there way out of a paper bag. They know how to apply the basics of many programming languages to simple sricpts or quick jobs, but if they were told go solo on a new project they would fail miserably. The simple fact that the fizz buzz tests exists shows you this. And yes, I know many college seniors that would struggle with fizzbuzz, when it should take a marginally competent programmer less than 5 minutes to complete.

Focus on a language or stack, put some effort into your own project, and you will be on par or better than your average college graduate in about a year.

haha I had to try it, I think it took me around 5 minutes to complete it, here it is in JS:
I haven't learned programming in college, just on my own
for (i = 1; i < 101; i++) {
if (i % 3 === 0) {
console.log("Fizz")
}
if (i % 5 === 0) {
console.log("Buzz")
}
if (i % 3 === 0 && i % 5 === 0) {
console.log("FizzBuzz")
}
console.log(i)
}

Edit: now the prefect version took me like 15 minutes:

for (i = 1; i < 101; i++) {
if (i % 3 === 0) {
if ( i % 5 === 0) {
console.log("FizzBuzz " + i)
}
else console.log("Fizz " + i)
}
else if (i % 5 === 0) {
console.log("Buzz " + i)
}
else console.log(i)
}

I was gonna say your first one has the common logic error of not checking if both 3 and 5 first (for fizz buzz). But the second one corrected it

Post: #57

(01-22-2016 04:25 PM)Matrixdude Wrote:  How is the job market for C++ now a days?

I've picked up a book recently, I want to get into programming.

Pretty much non existent, unless you're god tier enough to work on triple-A title game engines, which you aren't if you just picked up the book.

Return it and get a Java book in my opinion. Your skills will directly transfer to Android which is in huge demand.

Only C++ dev I know with a job works at DICE and had a good chunk of work in the latest Battlefield game. The rest of them are unemployed or working with other programming languages.

Post: #58

(01-23-2016 05:56 PM)the Thing Wrote:  

(01-22-2016 04:25 PM)Matrixdude Wrote:  How is the job market for C++ now a days?

I've picked up a book recently, I want to get into programming.

Pretty much non existent, unless you're god tier enough to work on triple-A title game engines, which you aren't if you just picked up the book.

Return it and get a Java book in my opinion. Your skills will directly transfer to Android which is in huge demand.

Only C++ dev I know with a job works at DICE and had a good chunk of work in the latest Battlefield game. The rest of them are unemployed or working with other programming languages.

The use for C++ depends on what you are using it for. C++ specializes in utilizing bare metal applications along with C. C++ is still among the top 10 computer languages in the world. I should warn you, a lot of people apparently find C++ complicated. You may need an entire year to learn C++. It might be better to start with a language like Java, Python or JavaScript first. You generally get into C++ because you want to do some intensive memory management. If you want to learn a language, the three I mentioned are a great start to learning the basics.

I should mention, in the long run, you should learn multiple languages, not just one. If you ever want to learn C++, it will be fairly easier to pick up because you already have the basics of how computer languages work.

Post: #59

Just wanna say hi to my fellow coders. Veteran .NET developer here, adept of clean coding and agile development (Uncle Bob anybody ?). Making a very decent living working for big corporations.

Post: #60

I'll jump in here:

I do freelance and work part-time as a front-end development instructor, and I would say that I have a very high level of HTML/CSS and strong JS skills (probably a purple belt at this point).

PROTIP: for those here who are dropping code examples in the posts, don't sleep on the code-markup which you can insert with the hash-tag button from the top-right corner of the post's text field editor. It makes the code much easier to format and read:

Post: #61

(01-25-2016 10:42 AM)arafat scarf Wrote:  I'll jump in here:

I do freelance and work part-time as a front-end development instructor, and I would say that I have a very high level of HTML/CSS and strong JS skills (probably a purple belt at this point).

PROTIP: for those here who are dropping code examples in the posts, don't sleep on the code-markup which you can insert with the hash-tag button from the top-right corner of the post's text field editor. It makes the code much easier to format and read:

Code:

girls.forEach(function(g){
  g.pumpAndDump();
});

Good to know.

So what is your take on the new front end frameworks. Which will be the new hot one for the next year or two? Is it Angular or React? I personally like to use Handlebars and their template system for front end stuff.

Post: #62

Learned C++
Waste of time. Didn't listen when people told me to learn WEB programming.

By the way, should I take a programming course or is it better to study by myself?
I know the basics of C++ and algorithms.

Post: #63

(01-25-2016 11:13 AM)pizdets Wrote:  Learned C++
Waste of time. Didn't listen when people told me to learn WEB programming.

By the way, should I take a programming course or is it better to study by myself?
I know the basics of C++ and algorithms.

I suggest you give up programming and do something else.

With that attitude the best you will be is mediocre and feel like a pretender. And you probably won't even get that far.

Find something else you actually enjoy and do that for a career instead.

Post: #64

In your opinion guys, is it possible to learn the fundamentals of programming and get an entry level job in Europe (Uk,Germany, I was thinking) as a front end dev, even if one is 25+ yo and he has studied something completely different at university?

Post: #65

(01-25-2016 11:13 AM)pizdets Wrote:  Learned C++
Waste of time. Didn't listen when people told me to learn WEB programming.

By the way, should I take a programming course or is it better to study by myself?
I know the basics of C++ and algorithms.

Study by yourself. No course will teach you something you can't learn by yourself.

Best way to be a better coder is by doing. Go to hackerrank.com and solve challenges using whatever language you prefer. Look for answers on stackoverflow if you get stuck. You can also post here if you need help.

That being said, this will teach you the programming mindset not the actual technologies you'll be working with on a coding gig. While it's a given that you have to master this level of algorithmic thinking before you even have a shot at being a software development A-lister, what matters when you're looking for a job is your experience with frameworks on the language you're looking for a job in.

For example if you want a Java job you need to be able to find your way around Spring, Hibernate, Struts, Thymeleaf, JUnit etc. or their Java EE 7 equivalents. Once you're proficient with the Java language basics go ahead to https://spring.io/guides and start building stuff.

Only benefit of taking a course is that you can get help when you're stuck, but you can get help for free on Stackoverflow. It's incentivized too, my top 1% contributor rating put me ahead of others in many interviews, so there are plenty of reasons for people there to help you for free.

Post: #66

(01-25-2016 11:26 AM)GillesDeleuze Wrote:  In your opinion guys, is it possible to learn the fundamentals of programming and get an entry level job in Europe (Uk,Germany, I was thinking) as a front end dev, even if one is 25+ yo and he has studied something completely different at university?

Anyone with IQ in triple digits can start learning programming today and get an entry level coding gig in 2 months, provided you put in 10 hours a day learning.

Here's a thread about it: /thread-26260.html

Doesn't matter what you have studied but if it's STEM put some emphasis on it on the resume.

Post: #67

(01-25-2016 10:47 AM)evilhei Wrote:  

(01-25-2016 10:42 AM)arafat scarf Wrote:  I'll jump in here:

I do freelance and work part-time as a front-end development instructor, and I would say that I have a very high level of HTML/CSS and strong JS skills (probably a purple belt at this point).

PROTIP: for those here who are dropping code examples in the posts, don't sleep on the code-markup which you can insert with the hash-tag button from the top-right corner of the post's text field editor. It makes the code much easier to format and read:

Code:

girls.forEach(function(g){
  g.pumpAndDump();
});

Good to know.

So what is your take on the new front end frameworks. Which will be the new hot one for the next year or two? Is it Angular or React? I personally like to use Handlebars and their template system for front end stuff.

I haven't messed much with Angular, but from the local community -- and from my experience -- React is gonna come out on top of this one.

Pros

• Virtual DOM is FAST...major performance advantage from only updating the DOM where it needs to be updated (instead of a re-rendering)
• Easy to manage subviews through their nesting of subcomponents and useful 'hooks' which allow you to control application behavior based on a view component's life cycle
• Framework marks a distinct separation of application-state and data (via `props`)
• Data flows one-way through your application, from View-Controller down to child components
• Unopinionated wrt application data-model. There is only a 'React way' insofar as creating view-components with their virtual DOM
• Extendable & modular with optional components like react-router and flux (when you need to manage application complex state)
• React on the server allows isophormic, server-side HTML rendering which gives a performance boost and enhances SEO
  

Cons

• can be difficult to debug
• tethers HTML and even CSS syntax in js -- some argue that these should be separate concerns
• forces you into using an abstraction JSX (the hybrid Javascript and HTML markup)
• by relegating your app to React's virtual DOM, you turnover control of the real DOM which can have unintended consequences in your app (dealing with input fields / forms / certain user interactions like draggables)
  

On balance, the winds seem to be favoring React though I can't imagine Angular disappearing.

edited for formatting

Post: #68

Thank you very much the thing, great thread!

Post: #69

thats good breakdown arafat scarf, thanks, repped.

Has anybody run/owned a coding house, producing custom soft, web, apps etc? How is it running that business? For example a client contacts you and says they need some tool for managing customer contacts, how you make the offer? Do you make offer based on some sprints, for example you say 1 week sprint 2 developers is this much and we will see how much get done with that time and estimate that probably it will take like 4 sprints to complete the app? Or something else, anybody has experience?

Post: #70

(01-23-2016 08:34 AM)AntiTrace Wrote:  Also: for those thinking programming , just get out there and do it. Think of your own projects and go from there.

Most college graduates can't program there way out of a paper bag. They know how to apply the basics of many programming languages to simple sricpts or quick jobs, but if they were told go solo on a new project they would fail miserably. The simple fact that the fizz buzz tests exists shows you this. And yes, I know many college seniors that would struggle with fizzbuzz, when it should take a marginally competent programmer less than 5 minutes to complete.

Focus on a language or stack, put some effort into your own project, and you will be on par or better than your average college graduate in about a year.

I had an interview once where I had to make a function that would solve the first problem on projecteuler.net which is simply to find the sum of all numbers below 1000 that are a multiple of either 3 or 5. It's pretty simple so I finished it quick. The guy interviewing me said that the previous 10 people he had interviewed couldn't do this. One guy even snuck out of the office before he came back to check on him presumably out of embarrassment.

Post: #71

(01-25-2016 11:25 AM)Tigre Wrote:  

(01-25-2016 11:13 AM)pizdets Wrote:  Learned C++
Waste of time. Didn't listen when people told me to learn WEB programming.

By the way, should I take a programming course or is it better to study by myself?
I know the basics of C++ and algorithms.

I suggest you give up programming and do something else.

With that attitude the best you will be is mediocre and feel like a pretender. And you probably won't even get that far.

Find something else you actually enjoy and do that for a career instead.

Spot on !

If you are not passionate about programming just quit. It's easy to get started but difficult to master.
You will compete with high IQs who actually enjoy putting in 16h per day.

When I started I couldn't think about anything else, sometimes I skipped school to stay home and program. For a period of time I couldn't even get good sleep because I was dreaming about code and waking up.(srs)

If you are doing it for $$$, it's not worth it. Get into something like business/sales instead, you will make the same or more.

Post: #72

(01-26-2016 06:17 PM)Wutang Wrote:  

(01-23-2016 08:34 AM)AntiTrace Wrote:  Also: for those thinking programming , just get out there and do it. Think of your own projects and go from there.

Most college graduates can't program there way out of a paper bag. They know how to apply the basics of many programming languages to simple sricpts or quick jobs, but if they were told go solo on a new project they would fail miserably. The simple fact that the fizz buzz tests exists shows you this. And yes, I know many college seniors that would struggle with fizzbuzz, when it should take a marginally competent programmer less than 5 minutes to complete.

Focus on a language or stack, put some effort into your own project, and you will be on par or better than your average college graduate in about a year.

I had an interview once where I had to make a function that would solve the first problem on projecteuler.net which is simply to find the sum of all numbers below 1000 that are a multiple of either 3 or 5. It's pretty simple so I finished it quick. The guy interviewing me said that the previous 10 people he had interviewed couldn't do this. One guy even snuck out of the office before he came back to check on him presumably out of embarrassment.

Yeah that problem is very similar to fizz buzz in terms of logic as well. When learning. New language, the first thing I do is fizz buzz, then I do some project Euler problems. Once I'm comfortable with that I'll do a simple file scanner and then simple sorting algorithms (binary sort, insertion sort). Or I'll combine then, read a file with a list of names, sort it alphabetically, and write the results to a new file.

I wish I was better with GUIs though. I've made some cool little projects with arduinos lately but want a GUI a user can use to control the machines instead of it running off certain commands from switches and button presses.

That or 2d gaming, I started 2d game development a few weeks back but got swamped with other stuff. For the little time I spent on it, it seems like it might the best bang for the buck for intermediate programmers in terms of practicing the language. It combines multiple libraries, OOP, and more than enough logical work to impress an interviewer for an entry level position

Post: #73

(01-28-2016 06:16 AM)AntiTrace Wrote:  

Quote:I had an interview once where I had to make a function that would solve the first problem on projecteuler.net which is simply to find the sum of all numbers below 1000 that are a multiple of either 3 or 5. It's pretty simple so I finished it quick. The guy interviewing me said that the previous 10 people he had interviewed couldn't do this. One guy even snuck out of the office before he came back to check on him presumably out of embarrassment.

Yeah that problem is very similar to fizz buzz in terms of logic as well. When learning. New language, the first thing I do is fizz buzz, then I do some project Euler problems. Once I'm comfortable with that I'll do a simple file scanner and then simple sorting algorithms (binary sort, insertion sort). Or I'll combine then, read a file with a list of names, sort it alphabetically, and write the results to a new file.

Yep. I took a long break from programming after HS (like 10 years), and when I wanted to get back into doing more than simple HTML/CSS stuff I picked up Ruby (I think) and figured out the first several Project Euler problems and FizzBuzz. It took me 3-4 hours (to do all of that, not just FizzBuzz), most of which was sorting out small errors in implementation in a language I'd never used until that day, not fixing logical errors. Previously I'd only ever used C++ (and Karel).

I keep hearing these stories about how programmers going in for interviews can't solve such basic problems and I just don't get how that can be. Are they lying about being programmers? Are there really a bunch of programmers out there who simply can't do the job, and skate by somehow... copying code from the internet, or asking for help on stackoverflow... or some other way? Even if they can't write syntactically-perfect code on the spot, surely they can write it in pseudocode?

I've met a lot of geologists who were, frankly, pretty lacking in knowledge given that they had BS degrees or better. But a professional programmer being unable to solve a simple problem like FizzBuzz is on par with a professional geologist not being able to tell the difference between... oh, a pebbly conglomerate and a chunk of granite, and every Geology 101 student I ever had could at least manage that much. How the fuck do you get through a basic programming 101 type class without learning how to write a for loop and if/else statements?

Is there just a ton of dead weight in the programming world, or is the assertion that a large minority of programmers are essentially incompetent overblown anecdata? I don't work as a programmer other than for myself (basic web development stuff for clients + my own much more complex projects) so I don't know what it's like in the wild, so to speak.

Post: #74

(01-28-2016 07:59 AM)weambulance Wrote:  

(01-28-2016 06:16 AM)AntiTrace Wrote:  

Quote:I had an interview once where I had to make a function that would solve the first problem on projecteuler.net which is simply to find the sum of all numbers below 1000 that are a multiple of either 3 or 5. It's pretty simple so I finished it quick. The guy interviewing me said that the previous 10 people he had interviewed couldn't do this. One guy even snuck out of the office before he came back to check on him presumably out of embarrassment.

Yeah that problem is very similar to fizz buzz in terms of logic as well. When learning. New language, the first thing I do is fizz buzz, then I do some project Euler problems. Once I'm comfortable with that I'll do a simple file scanner and then simple sorting algorithms (binary sort, insertion sort). Or I'll combine then, read a file with a list of names, sort it alphabetically, and write the results to a new file.

How the fuck do you get through a basic programming 101 type class without learning how to write a for loop and if/else statements?

They can write loops and if/else statements all day, the problem is they lack critical thinking and problem solving skills. Many are used to the peer programming environment, where they are told what to write by another programmer. A writer doesn't learn how to write a novel by just typing what is told to him, and a programmer doesn't learn to program that way either.

I also think the typical assignments are too generic and, like you mentioned, easily copied from stack overflow or a quick google search.

That's why I always recommend people do their own projects to learn. That's how they will learn those problem solving and critical thinking skills. A person that sits down and slugs through a simple calculator app will learn more about programming than 2 years of college level education at most institutions.

Post: #75

(01-28-2016 08:18 AM)AntiTrace Wrote:  They can write loops and if/else statements all day, the problem is they lack critical thinking and problem solving skills. Many are used to the peer programming environment, where they are told what to write by another programmer. A writer doesn't learn how to write a novel by just typing what is told to him, and a programmer doesn't learn to program that way either.

I also think the typical assignments are too generic and, like you mentioned, easily copied from stack overflow or a quick google search.

That's why I always recommend people do their own projects to learn. That's how they will learn those problem solving and critical thinking skills. A person that sits down and slugs through a simple calculator app will learn more about programming than 2 years of college level education at most institutions.

Alright, put like that it makes perfect sense. Most people are happier being followers or taking orders than being the ones who have to find solutions and make decisions. I suppose I just always assumed programmers had some responsibility for solving their own problems even as cogs in a larger machine.

I'm not sure why I thought that. Even many of the engineers I know are pretty crap at problem solving without someone holding their hand. Scary, really.