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The CIA is déclassé
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Icarus Offline
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The CIA is déclassé
Gents,

While watching the 3rd season of Homeland, I was reminded of the following article by political scientist Edward Luttwak:

Re-reading the article led me to believe that many RVF members would probably make fine intelligence officers. The days when only privileged upper class Ivy League graduates had extensive traveling experience are over. In a sense, Roosh's adventures in Eastern Europe could be thought of as gathering of Pussy Intelligence, which we could abbreviate as PUSSINT ;-)

Without further ado, here's Luttwak's article with the juiciest parts in bold:

Quote:CIA officials used to have all sorts of irritating habits. If offered a perfectly good Châteauneuf-du-Pape at a Georgetown dinner party, they would praise it--by stressing their dissent from the "universal opinion" that unblended reds are better. If told of an especially good trattoria in Rome, they might express much gratitude for the information--and deplore their own laziness in always going to the same old Sabatini they had first encountered while vacationing in Italy with their parents. Even more irritating was the propensity of first-generation CIA officials for interjecting into any remotely relevant conversation memories of Groton, Yale, or skiing holidays in St. Moritz.

There is none of that sort of thing anymore. Today's CIA people are not wine snobs--in fact, many of them prefer beer, while others refrain from even coffee, as befits good Mormons. Nor are they partial to foreign foods in funky trattorias--cheeseburgers are more their style. Instead of being Ivy League showoffs, they are quietly proud of their state colleges, however obscure these might be.

Unfortunately, much good has also been lost along the way, including that easy familiarity that comes from an early acquaintance with foreign ways. It is one thing to read up on, say, current French policy for the airliner industry, and to start from scratch. It is quite another if the new information is layered over personal experiences with things French going back to teen-age visits, junior-year-abroad touring, or even years of residence with expatriate parents.

This deficiency might be what Tony Lake had in mind when, in the course of his abortive confirmation hearings, he remarked that the CIA's "pool of talent, particularly in languages and cultural knowledge, is getting very thin." The Clinton administration had little difficulty in replacing Lake as its candidate to head the CIA. The CIA is much less likely to overcome its personnel problem, which affects its quality as an intelligence organization far more than the choice of the next director ever could.

When it comes to the operational side of the CIA's work--mostly the recruitment of agents in place--it is certainly more difficult to strike just the right tone with a foreign diplomat or functionary without a broader background than can be gained in Salt Lake City or Dayton. Of course, most of the people whom CIA officials must strive to understand--or recruit--are not suave Europeans but rather Middle Eastern thugs, Russian weapons traffickers, Chinese bureaucrats, Latin American officers, and the like. But even with these folks, the challenge is to interpret and manipulate motivations, urges, obsessions, and priorities that drastically diverge from those prevalent among the middle classes of middle America, the source of most CIA recruits today.

To be sure, there is plenty of talent all over the United States and in every level of society. Yet, a narrow provincialism seems to be the hallmark of younger CIA officials. One reason is simply that applicants are much more likely to be approved by the CIA's security investigators if they have lived in one place all their lives, with no prior foreign travel or foreign contacts (each of which must be reported in detail, no matter how routine the travel or how casual the contact). Moreover, there seems to be a distinct preference for applicants who resemble the security investigators themselves--exceptionally sober people who have never danced in a London disco, never had a Japanese girlfriend or a Brazilian boyfriend, and never tried smoking pot while in college.

In other words, the CIA is now screening out exactly the sort of people it used to actively recruit: venturesome young Americans with as much foreign experience as possible.

Because espionage is such a small part of the business of intelligence--as compared with the purely intellectual work of analysis--none of the above would matter very much if the CIA could still attract the smartest graduates from the best universities. But those days are long past. The Ivy League graduates who used to fill its ranks now mostly want to become investment bankers: It is there that the adventure lies--as well as the money, of course. Nothing can be done about that. But the CIA could do much better if it pursued diversity in its recruiting, not the by-the-numbers diversity of so many women or Hispanics or African-Americans but, rather, a diversity of experience.

Plenty of young Americans have lived abroad from childhood with their corporate-executive parents, and many others have done so as post-college volunteers for Third World relief and developmental outfits. Many thousands of young Americans currently live in Moscow, Prague, and other Eastern European capitals, enjoying the excitements of their post-Communist transition, excitements that include the abundance of attractive sexual partners eager to connect with Westerners. At present, most such applicants are rejected if they seek to join the CIA, as are nontypical applicants in general--security investigators find that their background is just too complicated.

One reject was asked earnestly why on earth he had gone to live in Prague after graduation, surviving on odd jobs instead of starting a career back home. When he jokingly responded with "girls," the investigators did not conceal their shocked disapproval. When he dropped the ill-received jocularity to say that he had wanted, having grown up in the Midwest, to live awhile in one of the world's most beautiful cities, they were openly disbelieving--they had never been to Prague of course, and apparently, they did not know of its architectural splendors, either.

A more egregious case is that of an adventurous and quite brilliant young woman. She had worked for a refugee-relief project in the most lawless region of South Asia before finding her way into an even more dangerous part of the world--one of great importance for U.S. foreign policy. She became so interested in the area's ongoing struggle and the local culture that she decided to study it systematically, exiting from her marriage to return there. She made a great number of friends, from village women to guerrilla leaders, multiplying the number of "foreign contacts" she faithfully reported on the security form required of all CIA applicants. That in the process she had learned what makes the locals tick--as well as a language known to few, if any, CIA officials--was of no account: Her chances of being hired would have been much better if she had remained celibate in Salt Lake City.

The nondrinking, nonsmoking, noncarousing, and mostly monolingual CIA officials of today do not have the vices of either their more adventurous contemporaries or their flamboyant Ivy League predecessors, but it is really unfair to expect them to cope with all those foreigners out there.

"The great secret of happiness in love is to be glad that the other fellow married her." – H.L. Mencken
(This post was last modified: 10-12-2013 08:39 PM by Icarus.)
10-12-2013 08:38 PM
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elabayarde Offline
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RE: The CIA is déclassé
yeah but our general ability to understand other cultures is in grave deficit. We alienate ourselves more and more. Just look at the amount interpreters and fluent people in the regions we operate in. This mentality is gonna hurt us IMO. But I am a nobody so...

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10-12-2013 09:42 PM
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RE: The CIA is déclassé
(10-12-2013 08:38 PM)Icarus Wrote:  it is really unfair to expect them to cope with all those foreigners out there.
[/quote]



10-12-2013 10:48 PM
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RE: The CIA is déclassé
(10-12-2013 10:48 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 08:38 PM)Icarus Wrote:  it is really unfair to expect them to cope with all those foreigners out there.




[/quote]

hahah

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10-13-2013 12:57 AM
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Handsome Creepy Eel Offline
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RE: The CIA is déclassé
How about this theory?

The USA is currently at war / despised with so much of the world that it would be literally impossible to amass so many agents with foreign languages and experience. There are just too many enemies it would have to spy on.

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10-13-2013 05:38 AM
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Que enspastic Offline
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RE: The CIA is déclassé
I was told by a family friend in academia that one of his star PhD students in political science, who was also multilingual, got knocked back by ASIS (Australia Security Intelligence Service) at the last stage because her Armenian dad "could possibly" have had sympathies for the New Armenian Resistance Group.

ASIS don't need proof. Suspicion is enough.

The vetting process takes close to one year and many fail at the last hurdle.

Think about the troubles M15 faced when their chief spies were essentially Russian operatives during the Cold War.

It is a delicate balance between attracting top skills and managing potential risk.
10-13-2013 06:39 AM
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Icarus
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RE: The CIA is déclassé
(10-13-2013 05:38 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  How about this theory? The USA is currently at war / despised with so much of the world that it would be literally impossible to amass so many agents with foreign languages and experience. There are just too many enemies it would have to spy on.

I don't quite agree. The U.S. spies on everyone, including allies. The allies of the U.S. certainly spy on the U.S., too. For example, the U.S. and Israel are, theoretically, allies, but that does not mean they don't spy on each other. Here's an interesting article on that:

IMHO, the major problem the CIA faces is that it's a human intelligence (HUMINT) agency in a world in which HUMINT is increasingly difficult. During the Cold War, HUMINT was easier, since the enemies were countries, and you can talk to countries and have diplomatic relations with them. The CIA case officers abroad would have official covers, i.e., they would work for and in the U.S. embassy as "diplomats", and their role would be to recruit agents in foreign countries. If the operations went wrong, the case officer would have diplomatic immunity, and could be evacuated through diplomatic channels, and the agent, almost never a U.S. citizen, would be accused of treason and executed. This is why a career as a spy attracted upper class Ivy League graduates: if they went abroad under an official cover, they would have diplomatic protection. Let the proles work under non-official covers and be tortured and executed when caught.

For example, during the Cold War, the Russians knew very well who amongst the diplomats at the U.S. embassy in Moscow was a legitimate diplomat working for the State Department, and who was a CIA officer under an official cover (even though the U.S. never informed the Russians, of course). At U.S. embassies in friendly countries, the U.S. embassy informs the local intelligence who its intelligence officers under an official cover are. In other words, when you spy on an ally, you let him know who is doing the spying; when you spy on an enemy, you don't let him know who your intelligence officers are.

The problem today is that the enemies of the U.S. seem to be non-state actors. Al Qaeda is not a country, so you cannot send case officers to the U.S. embassy in the capital of "AlQaedastan" to recruit local agents to provide valuable intel. Thus, the U.S. is forced to rely too much on signals intelligence (SIGINT), i.e., on the NSA instead of the CIA, but if the enemy uses messenger pigeons to communicate instead of radio / internet, you're out of luck.

"The great secret of happiness in love is to be glad that the other fellow married her." – H.L. Mencken
(This post was last modified: 10-13-2013 07:24 AM by Icarus.)
10-13-2013 07:17 AM
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RexImperator Offline
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RE: The CIA is déclassé
Quick note about the lingo as mentioned above

Officers: Employees of the CIA (U.S. Citizens) who go abroad and recruit the
Agents: (usually) foreign nationals who collect the intelligence and then pass it on to the officers

Just mentioning that because the term "CIA agent" often gets thrown around a lot (esp. by the media) referring to both, and in the process confuses the two.

Maybe this is too cynical on my part, but IMO anything requiring extensive security/background checks is too much of a PITA to deal with nowadays. As the article pretty much says, it seems like nearly anyone who is interesting or willing to take risks (and maybe made some mistakes they learned from along the way) will have a high probability of failing them.

BTW by "Ivy League" I think they mostly mean Yale men anyway...that is, probably not Columbia (if we are talking about 1950s/1960s).
10-13-2013 11:30 AM
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Icarus Offline
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RE: The CIA is déclassé
(10-13-2013 11:30 AM)RexImperator Wrote:  BTW by "Ivy League" I think they mostly mean Yale men anyway...

Indeed, and here's an article on that: For God, Country, Yale and the CIA (2004). An excerpt:

Quote:Although the CIA has had its ups and downs since its inception in 1947, it has historically proven to be a popular career choice for many Yale graduates, most notably former President George H.W. Bush ’48 and legendary operatives William Bundy ’39 and James Jesus Angleton ’41.

Undergraduate Career Services Director Philip Jones said student interest in the CIA has been consistently high since he took up his post at the University six years ago.

“It’s always been on the radar for Yale students that there is a career in the CIA,” he said.

According to Jones, students are correct in their assumption: CIA recruiters are frequently on campus, conducting interviews through UCS and the School of Management. Information sessions and panels with CIA recruiters are widely attended, generating audiences that range between 70 and 80 students, he said. The agency most recently had a table at the Corporate Career Fair on Sept. 17. Jones said more than 700 students, a high percentage of those who attended the fair, visited the table.

Of the many Yalies who express interest in working for the CIA each year, Jones said the agency typically hires several. And while it is true that other elite institutions, such as Harvard and Princeton, have sent numerous graduates into the ranks of the CIA, Yale’s impact on the agency is unparalleled.

"The great secret of happiness in love is to be glad that the other fellow married her." – H.L. Mencken
(This post was last modified: 10-13-2013 11:56 AM by Icarus.)
10-13-2013 11:54 AM
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Cattle Rustler Offline
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RE: The CIA is déclassé
The scene has changed, you're not spying jetset Russians but rather on tribal afghans.

Knowing the latest cosmo issue and speaking french won't help as much as speaking Pashto and sitting in a rug drinking tea with a 70 year tribal leader who has 4 years.

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10-13-2013 12:01 PM
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Icarus Offline
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RE: The CIA is déclassé
(10-13-2013 12:01 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  The scene has changed, you're not spying jetset Russians but rather on tribal afghans.

Not quite. The CIA is spying both on Russians and the tribal Afghans, it's just that the latter get more media attention due to the war.

The intelligence agencies gather intel on everyone, including allies. Intel on allies tends to have diplomatic value, whereas intel on enemies tends to have military value as well. Like the Russians say, "trust but verify". For alliances to be preserved, you must know that your allies are doing their job, and someone needs to get that information.

"The great secret of happiness in love is to be glad that the other fellow married her." – H.L. Mencken
(This post was last modified: 10-13-2013 12:29 PM by Icarus.)
10-13-2013 12:28 PM
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RE: The CIA is déclassé
Keep in mind though that its not a bunch of Yalies running around assassinating people, and runnin' and gunnin' in the Peshawar region. The Yale types are Case Officers who makes relationships with foreign nationals, and get information via bribes/threats.

The guys who do all the Hollywood-esque shit like getting into gun battles with FARCs or Al-Qaeda, calling in air strikes from the ground, the interrogations, and probably in most cases planting bugs are cut from a very different cloth then the Yale Men. These guys make up the Special Activities Division, who are by and large former SOCOM types.

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10-13-2013 12:53 PM
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RE: The CIA is déclassé
(10-13-2013 12:53 PM)MHaes Wrote:  Keep in mind though that its not a bunch of Yalies running around assassinating people, and runnin' and gunnin' in the Peshawar region. The Yale types are Case Officers who makes relationships with foreign nationals, and get information via bribes/threats. (..) These guys make up the Special Activities Division, who are by and large former SOCOM types.

Here's an article on that: CIA commandos remain covert (2002). An excerpt:

Quote:They don't play by the normal rules because they don't have to. That's a big reason why the United States increasingly prefers to deploy CIA paramilitary troops whenever it prepares to enter global hot spots such as Afghanistan or Iraq. U.S. military officials and other analysts say the CIA has a long history of sending highly trained commandos to some of the world's most dangerous places, sometimes well in advance of conventional fighting forces but often right alongside them.

The commandos' job is to gather intelligence, work as forward observers and perform covert operations that mainstream U.S. forces legally are not allowed to do or cannot do because of their more public, high-profile status.

"The CIA gets a bad rap. People tend to think that if the CIA is involved, there must be some kind of nefarious intent," said Lt. Col. Kevin M. McDonnell, commander of the U.S. Army's 1st Battalion, 3rd Special Forces Group. His troops spent much of the past six months working alongside CIA agents and paramilitary units in operations against al-Qaeda and Taliban guerrillas in isolated areas of Afghanistan. "They complement our mission. But the experience in our ranks complements their mission as well. They could not do what they do without us, and we could not do what we do without them," he explained. (...) Lt. Col. McDonnell said that, in many cases, the CIA selects its Special Activities Division agents from the ranks of retired special-operations personnel - experienced members of the Army's Special Forces, the Marines' Delta Force or the Navy Seals.

Since when is Delta part of the USMC? OK, he probably meant Recon Marines, or something like that...

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(This post was last modified: 10-13-2013 01:21 PM by Icarus.)
10-13-2013 01:20 PM
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RE: The CIA is déclassé
Hahaha I really don't think too many Delta guys would like being called Marines haha.

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10-13-2013 01:40 PM
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RE: The CIA is déclassé
Yeah, a lot of RVFers would make good intelligence agents I think. My kindle is full of Le Carre's books that I haven't read thoroughly enough, unfortunately. Spying would be the ultimate pussy-getting job, IMO.

Wouldn't somebody with good potential to be a not-gay spy be able to fool the CIA officers? I realize that there are criteria for background checks and being in one place for a long time is their preference, but still. Is it only 1 in 20 applicants that pass or what?
(This post was last modified: 10-20-2013 02:31 AM by Hades.)
10-20-2013 02:20 AM
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Icarus Offline
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RE: The CIA is déclassé
(10-20-2013 02:20 AM)Hades Wrote:  Spying would be the ultimate pussy-getting job, IMO.

Only if you have an official cover and keep your mouth shut. For example, your official cover would be as an employee of the State Department assigned to some U.S. embassy. You would have diplomatic immunity, and hot chicks dig diplomats. You would also go paranoid wondering if every chick who welcomes your advances is trying to drug you in order to extract information from you.

If you don't have an official cover, you have no diplomatic immunity. If you go around telling women you're an undercover CIA officer / agent, I guess you won't last very long.

"The great secret of happiness in love is to be glad that the other fellow married her." – H.L. Mencken
(This post was last modified: 10-20-2013 09:41 PM by Icarus.)
10-20-2013 09:37 PM
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RE: The CIA is déclassé
(10-13-2013 01:40 PM)MHaes Wrote:  Hahaha I really don't think too many Delta guys would like being called Marines haha.

Several guys I was in battalion with are now D operators.

Anyway, I think he's saying Delta and Marines as separate recruiting resources.

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10-20-2013 09:41 PM
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RE: The CIA is déclassé
(10-20-2013 02:20 AM)Hades Wrote:  Is it only 1 in 20 applicants that pass or what?

My impression was that it's much higher. If it's anything like the State Dept, it's hell on earth to get in.

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10-22-2013 12:04 AM
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RE: The CIA is déclassé
CIA officers are pretty cool as a bunch. The women are usually good-looking. I met one who was an ex-ballerina.
10-26-2013 09:16 AM
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RE: The CIA is déclassé
(10-20-2013 09:37 PM)Icarus Wrote:  
(10-20-2013 02:20 AM)Hades Wrote:  Spying would be the ultimate pussy-getting job, IMO.

Only if you have an official cover and keep your mouth shut. For example, your official cover would be as an employee of the State Department assigned to some U.S. embassy. You would have diplomatic immunity, and hot chicks dig diplomats. You would also go paranoid wondering if every chick who welcomes your advances is trying to drug you in order to extract information from you.

If you don't have an official cover, you have no diplomatic immunity. If you go around telling women you're an undercover CIA officer / agent, I guess you won't last very long.

Yeah I would think it's a job that requires a kind of red-pill awareness about the world yet also the ability to deliberately act "beta". Your job is to blend in and seem totally ordinary and dull. Very much the opposite of James Bond.

Also I don't believe it would mix well with being too much of a "player". Some kind of balance is required though - you have to have a certain level of abundance in your life to avoid manipulation by honeypots.
10-26-2013 09:41 AM
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