Post: #1

I've been listening to an audiobook of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations and I'm amazed at this stuff. really practical philosophy, brilliant insights, all from a man who lived over a thousand years ago...but amazingly relevant. He writes that a man who lived 40 years knows the same as one who will be in the future, or was in the past....and its true. Technology changes, empires change, but humans remain humans. I also like the way he remains level headed and focused. 'No one can change your goals, thus they also cannot upset you'.
His views on death also provide a kind of cool headed, and reasoned reassurance.

I'll be reading Epictetus next.
(By the way, all this is available on Librivox, for free.)

Anyone else a fan of stoicism?

Post: #2

It's funny you should mention this as I am reading this exact book now.

The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius is the probably the most insightful book I have ever read (2nd being Peter Drucker's The Effective Executive"). I have always found his advice about how to deal with life's trials invaluable. Infact, I do not know of any philosopher who had more to say about the human condition than Marcus Aurelius.

I would recommend to start reading this book at one's teenage years because it takes a long time to understand the essence of his words. Infact, you can never finish it all in 1 sitting. I re-read it every couple of years to gain a fresh understanding of how problems could have been managed. It is written as if Marcus Aurelius is writing for an audience of one. It is probably the best book on how to intimately examine oneself, to find out one's flaws and to recognise one's virtuous qualities.

My favorite quote:
Begin each day by telling yourself: Today I shall be meeting with interference, ingratitude, insolence, disloyalty, ill will, and selfishness-all of them due to the offenders' ignorance of what is good or evil. But for my part I have long perceived the nature of good and its nobility, the nature of evil and its meanness, and also the nature of the culprit himself, who is my brother; therefore none of those things can injure me, for nobody can implicate me in what is degrading.

A quick tip: Skip the Penguin Classics Paperback version released in 2007. It is highly watered down from the original one that came out earlier than that

Post: #3

Marcus Aurelius was an amazing guy. To think he was an Emperor and so humble is pretty cool.

I was reading a philosophy paper recently - and Aurelius was given as an example of the wisest, most powerful person who ever lived.

I haven't read his works yet - but just wanted to pass that along.

Post: #4

Stoicism is the best philosophy for the man of action who wants to live in the world instead of living the contemplative life

Tom Wolfe's (the best living American writer) novel "A Man in Full" incorporates stoicism into its themes and also deals a lot with the question of masculinity in modern America. It was a huge seller but predictably the effete literary crowd disliked it

Post: #5

I actually just finished writing a paper on Stoicism a few weeks back, so I have a lot to say about it.

I expect Stoicism to become more and more popular as this century progresses. It's an extremely appealing philosophy during times of insecurity - as was the case during the later period of the Roman Empire (which is when Stoicism was first "discovered"), and increasingly seems to be the case today. In these times there is a tendency to turn inwards for our well-being rather than rely on anything external, and to concentrate on satisfactions that are within our ability to achieve, rather than strive for any external goods out of our reach and uncertain.

Although I definitely think there is wisdom to be gleaned from Meditiations and Discourses, I personally have a few criticisms of Stoicism:

1. Stoicism seems to echo a theme of Buddhism: namely, that attachments to this world render us subject to pain at their loss. If we love or desire nothing, then we are invulnerable. But I completely disagree with this. Achieving satisfactions may well be worth the risk of pain. It seems far better to try to gain all we can out of life even though we run the risk of disappointment. Just because our efforts may be in vain hardly is a good reason not to strive for a better life; being safe is not substitute for being alive. I mean, the famous Stoic saying "Abstain and endure" is an incredibly sad motto.

2. Stoics believe that fate rules all external events, and obviously there is no point in trying to improve our station in life if we have no control over it. The Stoics believe that all events in the universe are already pre-determined; that since the past and some parts of the future are fixed and unchangeable, that everything is like this. But this is a logical fallacy - the fallacy of composition - claiming that what is true of the part is true for the whole. That is like saying that because a straw is light, an entire truck bed full of straws will be light.

Furthermore, if all events are predetermined, what is the point of a court system? If some people are predetermined to commit crimes, there is no sense in punishing them, or holding them accountable for their actions - they are just as much a victim as the person the perpetrated the crime against. But this violates certain basic human beliefs, and contradicts our moral experience.

3. In regards to emotions, Stoics say we should control our emotions, for they do not help us. But to quote Blaise Pascal "There are two equally dangerous extremes, to shut reason out, and to let nothing else in." Stoics obviously commit the latter.

Post: #6

Link to article about the Tom Wolfe book with good summary and explanation of its connections to stoicism, written by Creighton university philosophy professor: http://puffin.creighton.edu/phil/Stephen...Stoics.htm


Some more Marcus Aurelius quotes:
“You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength.”

“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”

“The happiness of your life depends upon the quality of your thoughts.”

“Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.”

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”

“If someone is able to show me that what I think or do is not right, I will happily change, for I seek the truth, by which no one was ever truly harmed. It is the person who continues in his self-deception and ignorance who is harmed.”

“How much more grievous are the consequences of anger than the causes of it.”

“Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the same weapons of reason which today arm you against the present.”

“Do not act as if you were going to live ten thousand years. Death hangs over you. While you live, while it is in your power, be good.”

“Look back over the past, with its changing empires that rose and fell, and you can foresee the future too.”

“You are a little soul carrying about a corpse, as Epictetus used to say.”


“Look well into thyself; there is a source of strength which will always spring up if thou wilt always look.”

--////------------

One thing I find in common with him is his view on god and the afterlife. It sounds in a way similar to Pascal's wager, yet its not about worship and faith but about virtue. That makes so much more sense to me. Would a just god care if you are a believer, or a virtuous person? And virtue as its own reward makes sense, for at the very least it provides an attainable goal and an anchor for one's life.

To those who say stoicism is wrong to focus on abstaining and enduring...when was the last time material gain or a hot girl made you truly happy? Yes, I remember that super hot blonde I banged..but that pleasure lasted an hour. It does little good now, and when a person is ill or injured it won't help. But looking with detachment at things allows you to keep a more balanced and stable life, in both avoiding gluttony and enduring hardship. I'd say it makes one more successful because you strive for success with persistence and a long term perspective.

Post: #7

I posted on RVF before how Admiral James Stockdale used stoicism to endure his 7 years in a Vietnam pow prison. He was tortured and held in solitary confinement for years.

Post: #8

Read the book:

A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy: William B

It is the best book I read on Stoicism. Most comprehensive, practical and complete.

Post: #9

Meditations is one of the first works I turned to when I started re-examining my own beliefs. Great wisdom in there. Will check out William Irvine's book, thanks.

I tend to agree with MHaes, and would add another criticism of Stoicism, which is shared by a lot of Western philosophy, the overall putting on a pedestal of logic and reason. In my life at least, I found this can become a weakness/blind spot.

Post: #10

(10-07-2013 09:15 AM)Dusty Wrote:  I posted on RVF before how Admiral James Stockdale used stoicism to endure his 7 years in a Vietnam pow prison. He was tortured and held in solitary confinement for years.

Do you have a link to this post?

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #11

^^^^

Can't find, but Stockdale is very well known for his use of stoicism as a POW. You can google his name and stoicism to find more. Here's some examples:

http://www.philosophicalcounsellor.com/1...f-war.html

http://puffin.creighton.edu/phil/stephen...oicism.htm

Quote: STOCKDALE AND EPICTETUS

Epictetus had the right stuff for James Bond Stockdale, who was caught like a deer in the media headlights eight years ago when Ross Perot plucked him from relative obscurity and made him his vice-presidential running mate.

Largely overshadowed at the time were Stockdale’s keen and inquisitive mind and his exemplary war record. He not only survived seven and a half years of captivity in Vietnam, but rallied his fellow prisoners, among whom he was the senior naval officer.

Stockdale had graduated from the United States Naval Academy in 1946 and was earning a master’s degree at Stanford University when a professor introduced him to Epictetus’ thought. The teacher noted that the great Prussian military leader, Frederick the Great, never went into battle without his copy of Epictetus’ Discourses.

Stockdale said that when he was shot down and parachuted into the arms of his Vietnamese captors in 1965, he whispered to himself: ‘Five years down there, at least. I’m leaving the world of technology and entering the world of Epictetus.’

Stockdale spent much of the next seven years in solitary confinement, frequently tortured by his captors. He believed it was vital to his own survival – both mental and physical – and to the survival of his men, that they maintain a certain integrity and dignity. So despite the torture, isolation and deprivation inflicted upon them by their captors, the prisoners refused to bow in public, to admit to crimes or to negotiate only for their own personal well-being.

Stockdale showed his men that commitment to the Stoic principles of self-respect and moral fortitude could enable them to successfully resist their captors’ attempts to coerce, abuse and degrade them. Stockdale, like Wolfe’s Conrad Hensley, survived his ordeal thanks, in part, to the psychological strength gleaned from Epictetus’ Stoicism.

Post: #12

I created a book study you guys might be interested in here:

/thread-28873.html

It's a study of a book by psychologist Albert Ellis, who applied the work of stoics (mostly Epictetus) and other influences to create his Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy (REBT).

Post: #13

I've been thinking about learning Stoicism but I don't know where to start. A few nights ago I met a guy that was in his late 70's that was a self-proclaimed stoic. He had a lot of insightful stuff to share regarding stoicism and it really intrigued me. Anyone know any books I can read to get started with it?

Post: #14

Marcus Aurelius' Meditations
Seneca's Letters

Post: #15

Stoicism did not attract a huge following in the ancient world, but the men it did attract were the best men.

It was favored by most of the great Roman writers of the Republican and Imperial periods. It also left a big mark on the development of Christian theology in the early centuries of the Church.

More than Aurelius, I think the best Stoic writings are to be found in Seneca's Letters and in some of Cicero's philosophic writings.

Post: #16

Seneca's Letters really felt like what ROK aspires to be. I suppose many ROK writers are very influenced by Seneca.

The letters really are simmilar to blog posts in a way, read them one at a time or all in bunches, short digestible bits of real world phlosophy.

Post: #17

The Irvine book recommended above.

Post: #18

I was checking for any past threads on Stoicism in general and fell on this one. It seems like a good place to have a general discussion on anything we find interesting by our favorite stoic philosophers.

(07-26-2014 07:24 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  Seneca's Letters really felt like what ROK aspires to be. I suppose many ROK writers are very influenced by Seneca.

The letters really are simmilar to blog posts in a way, read them one at a time or all in bunches, short digestible bits of real world phlosophy.

Agree with the comment above wholeheartedly. It's only been a couple of months since I started diving in and learning more about stoicism and casually reading Seneca's letters (Letters From A Stoic). His letters really do read like blog posts on a subject or even a forum thread when he replies back to queries. He also gets to the point and speaks clearly. But this could also be because of the translation version I'm reading that gives it a more natural flow. Recommend the 1969 Penguin Classics version by Robin Alexander Campbell over the 2014 complete works version by Delphi Classics.

A good place to get some bearing is https://dailystoic.com and their getting started post: https://dailystoic.com/what-is-stoicism-...u-started/

I also agree that what Marcus Aurelius and Seneca talk about is relevant even in this modern age (creepily so).

Like this... Seneca on Instagram:

"Let me give you, though, this one piece of advice: refrain from following the example of those whose craving is for attention, not their own improvement, by doing certain things which are calculated to give rise to comment on your appearance or way of living generally."