(10-03-2013 08:27 AM)NY Digital Wrote:  And the most important point:

After almost $7 trillion in debt since the Obama Administration has gone into office, where is the money coming from for this bill?

(10-03-2013 08:40 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

Quote:Any of them. Western Europe

Exactly what I meant by sloppy definitions.

Far from it. They have socialist healthcare and it is a failure. Or we could just take one system for instance, say the UK.

(10-03-2013 08:44 AM)Pacesetter20 Wrote:  

(10-03-2013 08:27 AM)NY Digital Wrote:  And the most important point:

After almost $7 trillion in debt since the Obama Administration has gone into office, where is the money coming from for this bill?

Pacesetter: Are you suggesting that household debt is the same as US govt debt? B/c that point was already addressed in this thread. Do you have further elaborations that you wanna make or are you just throwing out talking points regarding a thread that is supposed to be about govt shut down?

also, in your cartoon the woman is pointing out the problem and the guy is proposing the solution is to raise the credit card debt. so what does that mean?

@JayJuanGee: he is just making a point that a household wouldn't take out more debts if they already had their credit cards maxxed, so the government shouldn't either. But of course, governments work in a slightly different environment than households...

(10-03-2013 08:53 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  @JayJuanGee: he is just making a point that a household wouldn't take out more debts if they already had their credit cards maxxed, so the government shouldn't either. But of course, governments work in a slightly different environment than households...

HCE: This is one of those FoxNews talking points, that is misleading, and we already had some discussion of this earlier in the thread that Govt is different from the household for a variety of reasons.... but Pacesetter does not mention any of this, just posts a cartoon... it is like stirring up shit to keep us busy and distracted from the main point of the thread which is the govt shut down... the same thing going on in national politics.. lots of distractions away from the issue of the govt shut down..

(10-03-2013 08:59 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

(10-03-2013 08:53 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  @JayJuanGee: he is just making a point that a household wouldn't take out more debts if they already had their credit cards maxxed, so the government shouldn't either. But of course, governments work in a slightly different environment than households...

HCE: This is one of those FoxNews talking points, that is misleading, and we already had some discussion of this earlier in the thread that Govt is different from the household for a variety of reasons.... but Pacesetter does not mention any of this, just posts a cartoon... it is like stirring up shit to keep us busy and distracted from the main point of the thread which is the govt shut down... the same thing going on in national politics.. lots of distractions away from the issue of the govt shut down..

Yes Govt. debt is different from house hold debt.

At the same time you cannot sustain 100%+ Debt to GDP ratios. The whole thing will come crashing down, like we have seen in southern Europe.

Obama has simply borrowed and wasted far too much and got little to nothing in return (other than to pay off his friends).

(10-03-2013 08:59 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

(10-03-2013 08:53 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  @JayJuanGee: he is just making a point that a household wouldn't take out more debts if they already had their credit cards maxxed, so the government shouldn't either. But of course, governments work in a slightly different environment than households...

HCE: This is one of those FoxNews talking points, that is misleading, and we already had some discussion of this earlier in the thread that Govt is different from the household for a variety of reasons.... but Pacesetter does not mention any of this, just posts a cartoon... it is like stirring up shit to keep us busy and distracted from the main point of the thread which is the govt shut down... the same thing going on in national politics.. lots of distractions away from the issue of the govt shut down..

All bills come due eventually.

Deal with it now, voluntary, or have it dealt to us later, involuntarily.

I'd prefer not to be limited to daily withdrawal limits and having my savings confiscated.

Goverment debt has EVERYTHING to do with Household debt.

Vegas casinos are currently taking bets to see how long this government shutdown will last. Weren't governement jobs sought after for JOB SECURITY?

Quote:The entire reason this forum, and game culture, exists is because the left-wing state created you, yet the average leftist is just too blind to see it.

I'm really getting tired of arguing with leftists, because no matter how many times I refute them they are incapable of admitting when they are wrong.

Yes, Samseau...been there, done that. I'd just like to point out the typical left wing style of debate has been perfectly demonstrated in this thread by JayJuanGee. Note the following:

Quote:Are you suggesting that household debt is the same as US govt debt? B/c that point was already addressed in this thread.

Really Jay? Here's what you responded with when I made a similar comparison:

Quote:I find your comparison of government budget like a family budget to be lacking. the government's budget is not the same as a family's budget - especially the US government. There are at least a couple of ways that the govt budget is different.

First some things are neither profitable or agreed by everyone, but are legislated as must do this service and with some complicated funding scheme... including wars, policing social services.

second the US can make almost as much money as it wants b/c the US dollar happens to be the international standard (we shouldn't wanna screw up that cush deal)

third - sometimes its gonna make economic sense to over leverage a govt's budget, and it would be unwise to live within the budget when you should be leveraging in order to stimulate the economy or maybe for some other reason.

To which I responded:

Quote:It's just a simple metaphor to make a relevant point. All this proposed Government spending is based on spending more money than we collect from the taxpayers. That means, we "borrow" the money from the Federal Reserve Banking System to pay for all this. This is one of the biggest reasons why we have trillions of dollars in national debt with no hope of ever paying it off.

Yes, we don't have enough money, so the Government is saying we need to keep borrowing more to pay for all this stuff. Whether you argue if it's "legislated" or "must do services" doesn't have any bearing on the basic facts - the Government keeps wanting to spend more than they collect in taxes. Buying things with money we don't have.

The US doesn't "make as much money as it wants." It borrows it. Every last dime that is supposedly "created" by the Federal Reserve Banking system is "borrowed" into existence.

Besides that, don't you understand that the more money the Fed creates the higher it drives inflation?

i.e., I went through your counter argument, point by point. To which you simply replied:

Quote:You are making several of my points in several respects - though we still disagree in other respects..

Um, no I did not make your points at all. I completely refuted your points.

Instead, you avoided directly addressing my counter points that 1) whether it's Obamacare or War in the Afghan hinterlands, we are borrowing and spending more than we are collecting in taxes, and that 2) this borrowing to pay for all these things is driving up the national debt at an exponential rate, and that 3) the Feds creation of more money drives inflation - which in turn raises the costs of goods and services for everyone. Oh we're going to be paying for this "free healthcare" alright.

None of those points I raised "makes yours." Instead, you resorted to an analogy that is far more irrelevant and baseless ("...or a large govt like the US to live within what it takes in, and to require us to live within taxes will be like putting us in a boxing ring with one or maybe even two hands tied behind our back") than the one used comparing a debt laden household budget to a debt laden Government budget.

But hey, I can roll with your analogy anyways...

You see, borrowing even more money to pay for Obama care will in effect be like putting a boxer in the ring with both hands tied behind his back, but also tying his shoelaces together, too.

Oh, and by the way...I haven't watched FOXNews in well over a decade.

Accusing someone of regurgitating FOXNews talking points IS a talking point used by those who watch CNN/MSNBC, listen to NPR, and read Huffington Post, the NYT, Slate, Salon, Jezebel, Feministe.com, and forum regulars over at the Democratic Underground.

(10-03-2013 04:13 AM)ralphi Wrote:  It would be interesting to see what would happen of the EBT cards all declined at the same time.

It would be more interesting to see if they actually cut defense spending.



I'm not sure what intergalactic war is coming but America better be ready for it.

(10-03-2013 12:07 PM)Clyde Wrote:  

(10-03-2013 04:13 AM)ralphi Wrote:  It would be interesting to see what would happen of the EBT cards all declined at the same time.

It would be more interesting to see if they actually cut defense spending.

I'm not sure what intergalactic war is coming but America better be ready for it.

Please retain focus on small, powerless parasites. The big ones are listening...

(10-03-2013 04:22 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  I see your point about "cultural sensitivity", but (other than the obvious that not all 20 articles cited measured that) shared decision making is not some kind of hippie bullshit. It's the simple realization that people are more likely to improve their lifestyle habits (stop smoking, reduce salt intake, eat less, walk more, don't avoid vaccines or check-ups, etc) when they are included in those decisions rather than just being told what to do. While it's certainly not enough to stop the obesity behemoth, it's not what your first impression was.

Source: experience in tranalstion and editing of various medical studies

I'm a published researcher as well, and the masses, especially of the Fox news listening variety, almost invariably view science as something rationalistic instead of empirical.

They also conflate moral issues with physical reality.

It's not a great idea to try to provide someone with a background in scientific thinking on a "inner net" forum.

(10-03-2013 12:07 PM)Clyde Wrote:  I'm not sure what intergalactic war is coming but America better be ready for it.

+1 rep for pointing out gross absurdities in how the 99% learn to love Big Brother.

And for pointing out the aliens is coming. Aliens!!

(10-03-2013 12:12 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

(10-03-2013 12:07 PM)Clyde Wrote:  

(10-03-2013 04:13 AM)ralphi Wrote:  It would be interesting to see what would happen of the EBT cards all declined at the same time.

It would be more interesting to see if they actually cut defense spending.

I'm not sure what intergalactic war is coming but America better be ready for it.

Please retain focus on small, powerless parasites. The big ones are listening...

The takers are FAR from powerless. Nearly half the country. Soon over half the country, AKA they will run the country...

into the ground.

(10-03-2013 12:16 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

(10-03-2013 04:22 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  I see your point about "cultural sensitivity", but (other than the obvious that not all 20 articles cited measured that) shared decision making is not some kind of hippie bullshit. It's the simple realization that people are more likely to improve their lifestyle habits (stop smoking, reduce salt intake, eat less, walk more, don't avoid vaccines or check-ups, etc) when they are included in those decisions rather than just being told what to do. While it's certainly not enough to stop the obesity behemoth, it's not what your first impression was.

Source: experience in translation and editing of various medical studies

I'm a published researcher as well, and the masses, especially of the Fox news listening variety, almost invariably view science as something rationalistic instead of empirical.

They also conflate moral issues with physical reality.

It's not a great idea to try to provide someone with a background in scientific thinking on a "inner net" forum.

Nice doublespeak. It's the leftists who believe that "cultural sensitivity" is a measure of good medicine, and yet somehow it's the right wingers who are bringing morality into science?

Could you be any more disingenuous?

Furthermore, it's the leftists who believe "consensus" amongst scientists (aka groupthink and credentialist back-patting) equals empirical proof.

Anyone know the odds of debt ceiling not being raised in a few weeks? Politicians cant be that nuts can they to not increase it?

UNBELIEVABLE

WANT FREE HEALTH CARE DAIL 1 - 800- F1U-CKYO

Quote:Far from being a mistype, that’s the official number that Health and Human Services wants Americans to dial when seeking health care. Obamacare’s national call center really did list its number as 1-800-318-2596

Quote:1-800-3(F) 8(U) 2© 5(K) 9(Y) 6(O).

That’s 1-800-FUCKYO.

source

Shots fired on Capitol Hill.

http://fox6now.com/2013/10/03/fox-news-u...ots-fired/

^God this country is imploding.

iknowexactly, why do you feel the need to post 3 times in a row?

Can you please try quoting everything into 1 post? Thanks.

(10-03-2013 05:25 AM)Pacesetter20 Wrote:  

OT-His damn wife was telling me a story once and the bitch as so close to my face I thought she was gonna kiss me..... She definitely trapped his ass.

(10-03-2013 08:52 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

(10-03-2013 08:44 AM)Pacesetter20 Wrote:  

(10-03-2013 08:27 AM)NY Digital Wrote:  And the most important point:

After almost $7 trillion in debt since the Obama Administration has gone into office, where is the money coming from for this bill?

Pacesetter: Are you suggesting that household debt is the same as US govt debt? B/c that point was already addressed in this thread. Do you have further elaborations that you wanna make or are you just throwing out talking points regarding a thread that is supposed to be about govt shut down?

also, in your cartoon the woman is pointing out the problem and the guy is proposing the solution is to raise the credit card debt. so what does that mean?

So now we are arguing that its ok to spend more than we make because Gov debt is different? lol The world in the new millennium is so fucked up.

(10-03-2013 08:24 PM)Jaydublin Wrote:  

(10-03-2013 08:52 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

(10-03-2013 08:44 AM)Pacesetter20 Wrote:  

(10-03-2013 08:27 AM)NY Digital Wrote:  And the most important point:

After almost $7 trillion in debt since the Obama Administration has gone into office, where is the money coming from for this bill?

Pacesetter: Are you suggesting that household debt is the same as US govt debt? B/c that point was already addressed in this thread. Do you have further elaborations that you wanna make or are you just throwing out talking points regarding a thread that is supposed to be about govt shut down?

also, in your cartoon the woman is pointing out the problem and the guy is proposing the solution is to raise the credit card debt. so what does that mean?

So now we are arguing that its ok to spend more than we make because Gov debt is different? lol The world in the new millennium is so fucked up.

That is correct JD.. That is part of the point that the comparison of the govt to household is too simplified and brings people to the wrong conclusion - the govt is different than individual incomes, and so therefore spend spend spend...

Some refer to that kind of spending to stimulate growth as keynsian economics.... similar to what F. Roosevelt did in the 30s.... and may even have been similar to what Eisenhower did in the 50s with the building of the highway system..... and wasn't some of this done with trains, too... well, we could invest in speed trains, like other parts of the world are doing, which these investments into government projects were good for the American economy, even though some of the social legislation of that period may have been problematic for gender roles in America. Investment into infrastructure and spending beyond your income should NOT be considered a foreign concept.