Post: #1

I've got a main squeeze here in BKK. She's a doll. I fuck around on the side but she's the one I really miss and catch myself thinking about with a smile on my face. Great sex, beautiful, smart, open minded, fun, submissive, the whole 9.

I decided to try saying...

Quote:"I love you"

...as a bit of an experiment. Now, to each their own but my personal conclusion is that there is never a good reason to say these 3 words. Here's my reasoning:

1. They're just words.

Even if you feel like you're expressing yourself accurately and honestly, the words will enter her ears through a prism of popular associations, and she'll hear something entirely different than the intended message.

There's no getting away from all the movies, books and popular ideas about "I love you" we've all been bombarded with. It's like the word "creepy". It's totally meaningless apart from the vague associations it brings up and the ostracizing effect it's meant to have.

My feeling is that if you care about somebody, it'll come out in your body language and actions; in your commitment to remaining dominant and polar in your male/female roles; NOT by saying some silly catch phrase.

2. It pressures her.

Ok, she's thinking...

Quote:"now do I have to say it too? Shit, This is heavy. This means he's really into me. Does he want to get serious?"

etc...

Then she might start feeling like you're pedestalizing her. It's just too much for many girls.

3. It blurs the roles

A role answers the question "what are the terms of this relationship?"

Imagine you start working for a company. They offer you $100k - hot damn! - and you sign the contract eagerly. Then 3 weeks into your contract, they bump you down to $50k but up the "benefits".

You think, "I didn't sign up for this...benefits? Screw benefits, give me my 100k!"

That's exactly what blurring the roles does. It takes you from being a "lover", where the value exchange is almost entirely sexual/emotional, and introduces a "boyfriend" dynamic, in which commitment and relationship security supplant a good 50% of the previous all-sexual value.

Things get confusing, especially for her. My most harmonious and long lasting relationships have been the ones where I established a strongly polar "lovers" dynamic right from the very start and maintained it.

4. There's no taking it back.

If a girl is wondering whether you "love" her, you won't lose any points by being vague about it and never uttering the words.

But if it's expressed, the mystery is gone. She's wanted. She's desired. You "said it".

****

In this particular situation, it was a low-risk gamble because she knows I see other girls and am very sparse with my contact with her, so pedestalization is largely a non-issue. I said "I love you" in a matter of fact way, casually; in passing. Not in a heavy, prefaced, down-on-one-knee fashion.

When I said it the first time, I watched her reaction. She was a bit at a loss. She said "oh...really?" I casually replied "yeah." And moved on, paying it no further attention.

The second time I said it was during sex. It was a very high-energy, high emotion moment close to mutual orgasm. I'll be honest, I was curious to see if she would say it back in the heat of passion, but I didn't put any pressure or emphasis on it. She *almost* said it back, I could see it poised on her tongue, but she withheld herself.

It ruined the moment, actually. She probably felt like she had to say it. She was intoxicated by good emotions and I was exploiting that vulnerability. If she had let it slip out, she probably would have resented me for setting her up in a moment of weakness. I'm glad she didn't.

If your game and your terms are tight, letting an "I love you" slip probably won't hurt. But I can see how these 3 stupid little words can easily sound the death knell of a good fling.

Speaking for myself, I'll let my actions and body language do the talking. Saying "I love you" doesn't do either of you any favors. It's mutually disadvantageous. Therefore, it's bad game and bad policy.

What do you guys think?

Post: #2

You have to be pretty disenchanted about love to meaninglessly experiment with it on another human being.

Post: #3

(09-12-2013 12:14 AM)VincentVinturi Wrote:  Now, to each their own but my personal conclusion is that there is never a good reason to say these 3 words.

I've already mentioned this here but you've broken it down really well.

Post: #4

(09-12-2013 12:55 AM)polymath Wrote:  Women are pretty disenchanted about love and meaninglessly experiment with it on other human beings.

Fixed it for you.

Post: #5

(09-12-2013 01:12 AM)Thomas the Rhymer Wrote:  I've already mentioned this here but you've broken it down really well.

Ah, thanks Thomas. I searched the forum before starting this thread for the term "saying I love you" but didn't come up with any dedicated threads.

Good read on your mistakes as a BF. I think we're on the same page.

I read your mistake #3 (not criticizing your woman) and it reminded of when I was reading "way of the superior man" by David Deida. The author says don't try to change your woman, just let her be and show her all pervading love. And I was thinking...haha, yeah right! Sound great. Feels nice and warm and gooey inside. But empirically, it's the recipe for your girl to lose all respect and attraction for you.

This is from a woman:

Quote:"Punish your woman every day. If you don't know what she's done wrong, she does."

*spank*! ;-)

(09-12-2013 12:55 AM)polymath Wrote:  You have to be pretty disenchanted about love to meaninglessly experiment with it on another human being.

"disenchanted" - Should I be enchanted? Why is it assumed that I should be pro or against a given attitude for no apparent reason?

"meaninglessly" - I beg to differ. There's tremendous meaning in finding out what works and what gets results that are mutually beneficial.

What is meaningless is uttering a catch phrase and attaching an arbitrary, borrowed set of emotional reactions to it. Ever heard of Pavlov and his dogs...?

"experiment" - experimenting on human beings is what you do every day when you interact with other people, whether you're aware of it or not.

If it weren't for people putting aside social injunctions about how to behave and going out in the field with their balls in their hands and trying off the wall shit experimentally, you can BET there'd be no RVF.

And all the tremendous information on this forum you take for granted that improves our lifestyles and expands our enjoyment of life would not exist.

And that would be most disenchanting. ;-)

Post: #6

NOthing says "I love you" more than good dicking.

Post: #7

anyone ever "saved" a relationship by saying this. I guess it smacks of desperation in a sense.

Let's say a girl you enjoy banging and may or may not love is deciding to drift away for whatever reason. Whisper, " I love you" in her ear or tell her straight up.

Any body have actual success....keeping a girl around longer..... using these words ? ( before the girl utters them that is )

Post: #8

Funny, I say "I love you" all the time but in such obviously joking way my girl doesnt take it serious anymore. She's the clingy one in the relationship but I'm the one who says all the romantic stuff with a laugh.

I love you doesn't mean anything. What the hell do women or people even know about love anyway?

Quote:I really miss and catch myself thinking about with a smile on my face. Great sex, beautiful, smart, open minded, fun, submissive, the whole 9.

This says way way way more than I love you. I bet she knows it too. No need to get cheesy if the words make you uncomfortable.

Post: #9

(10-03-2014 05:23 PM)robreke Wrote:  anyone ever "saved" a relationship by saying this. I guess it smacks of desperation in a sense.

Let's say a girl you enjoy banging and may or may not love is deciding to drift away for whatever reason. Whisper, " I love you" in her ear or tell her straight up.

Any body have actual success....keeping a girl around longer..... using these words ? ( before the girl utters them that is )

Absolutely not, like you said it wreaks of desperation. There is nothing remotely successful for her

If she's drifting away, then it's been over before you even realized that.

Post: #10

(10-03-2014 05:23 PM)robreke Wrote:  anyone ever "saved" a relationship by saying this. I guess it smacks of desperation in a sense.

Let's say a girl you enjoy banging and may or may not love is deciding to drift away for whatever reason. Whisper, " I love you" in her ear or tell her straight up.

Any body have actual success....keeping a girl around longer..... using these words ? ( before the girl utters them that is )

I have had very positive reactions when I say it.

I don't say it in that way, though. Example:

"I love FUCKING you"

Feel their pussy tighten on your dick.

You'd probably be able to save a relationship more by using the opposite (I hate you) than those words.

Post: #11

I thought this thread was going to be about responding to the female saying it to you.

Never tell a girl you love her first. Even if you do. Never. That's not even a theory, thats law. As watertight as saying that 2+2 = 4.

Post: #12

(10-03-2014 07:07 PM)AntiTrace Wrote:  I thought this thread was going to be about responding to the female saying it to you.

Never tell a girl you love her first. Even if you do. Never. That's not even a theory, thats law. As watertight as saying that 2+2 = 4.

I think the point is trolling their emotions by seeing if they respond with deeper attachment, but you yourself are detached enough to use it as a lever. The "never say" holds true if you actually feel it.

I can see this backfiring because I know that when women hear a guy say "I love you" before she does, its the ultimate turn off for a women. Unless, the man goads her into it.

I've always had this little system myself for getting the girl to say I love you first within 30 days;

- Talk very little about yourself, act like your hiding details about who you are, what you do, etc etc. Be secretive and protective.
- Never go back to your place, always be at her place.
- Be a challenge to her. Make her hunt you down. Its really pretty easy just by being aloof, private and closed off about details about who you are, and plainly, JUST TALK LESS.
- Have superior self confidence, never complain, always be light and fun.
- Appear to agree on everything. Dont challenge her beliefs. Dont outright agree with her, but dont disagree with her purposely to be right for the sake of it. You sort of have to be egoless, or your ego staring at the horizon farther than the current conversation.
- Good sex.
- Dont call her back a few days. Yes, its the typical thing, but it works.
- Dont say it back.

Usually if I get a girl to tell me she loves me she wants to have my children. I have done this probably a dozen or so times. Usually these girls become serious gf's, if I have the patience and time to devote to her. When a girl tells me she loves me first, I know she actually means it. I have to be careful of this because it works, and leads to months/years of daily sex, and possible babies.

Post: #13

Good post. Reminds me of the movie Ghost where Swayze never said 'I love you' he said ditto. Show don't tell.

Post: #14

I've quite honestly never really loved a girl. I have felt concern for their well being and cared for them on some paternal level but actual love? Pffft.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with love or that i'm too hard for it. It's just very hard to find a woman that you can get to this level of connection. Too many people mistake some sort of physical or emotional dependency with love.

Post: #15

Quote:I've got a main squeeze here in BKK. She's a doll.

Quote:When I said it the first time, I watched her reaction. She was a bit at a loss. She said "oh...really?" I casually replied "yeah." And moved on, paying it no further attention.

The second time I said it was during sex. It was a very high-energy, high emotion moment close to mutual orgasm. I'll be honest, I was curious to see if she would say it back in the heat of passion, but I didn't put any pressure or emphasis on it. She *almost* said it back, I could see it poised on her tongue, but she withheld herself.

It ruined the moment, actually. She probably felt like she had to say it. She was intoxicated by good emotions and I was exploiting that vulnerability. If she had let it slip out, she probably would have resented me for setting her up in a moment of weakness. I'm glad she didn't.

That doesn't sound like a doll, but an ordinary low-quality slut to me. A healthy woman who was worth being in a relationship with would melt upon hearing that, especially without her saying it first.

Your situation is not an indictment of "I love you", but an indictment of this girl.

Post: #16

(10-03-2014 06:18 PM)kaotic Wrote:  

(10-03-2014 05:23 PM)robreke Wrote:  anyone ever "saved" a relationship by saying this. I guess it smacks of desperation in a sense.

Let's say a girl you enjoy banging and may or may not love is deciding to drift away for whatever reason. Whisper, " I love you" in her ear or tell her straight up.

Any body have actual success....keeping a girl around longer..... using these words ? ( before the girl utters them that is )

Absolutely not, like you said it wreaks of desperation. There is nothing remotely successful for her

If she's drifting away, then it's been over before you even realized that.

Reason I asked....there's this girl who was the main one I liked who recently told me she was going to give her ex long time boyfriend another chance. I was like...ok ....hmu if it doesn't work.

Well, she let me come to her place the other night after telling me. I was kissing on her and stuff and she was letting me and towards end of night was kissing back and saying she was still "crazy about me" etc.......but no sexual escalation (fwiw I know her period is about now)

As we were hugging goodbye she said "I really do miss you" I figured it was over at this point anyway and threw the long ball . I whispered in her ear "I love you babe" She said....why are you telling me now??? As if I should have mentioned it earlier.

I said 'would it have mattered if I told you before' She said "it might haaave" Then we 'talked' a bit more.

She said she's going to think about everything including how she now knows I "feel about her" over the weekend. So, I'm not really expecting much....but I thought I'd throw it out there because she's a great girl and wanted to keep her in my rotation.

I texted her the next day something and she texted right back "I was actually just thinking about you when I got the text"

I'm not sure if I do love her.....but like I say.....she was on her way out the door with this other guy she's got more history with.

Post: #17

(10-04-2014 10:41 AM)robreke Wrote:  

(10-03-2014 06:18 PM)kaotic Wrote:  

(10-03-2014 05:23 PM)robreke Wrote:  anyone ever "saved" a relationship by saying this. I guess it smacks of desperation in a sense.

Let's say a girl you enjoy banging and may or may not love is deciding to drift away for whatever reason. Whisper, " I love you" in her ear or tell her straight up.

Any body have actual success....keeping a girl around longer..... using these words ? ( before the girl utters them that is )

Absolutely not, like you said it wreaks of desperation. There is nothing remotely successful for her

If she's drifting away, then it's been over before you even realized that.

Reason I asked....I just started to "re date" this girl I'd been on the outs with for a few weeks again.......of my rotation she's the main one I liked who recently told me she was going to give her ex long time boyfriend another chance. I was like...ok ....hit me up if it doesn't work.

Well, she let me come to her place the other night after telling me. I was kissing on her and stuff and she was letting me and towards end of night was kissing back and saying she was still "crazy about me" etc.......but no sexual escalation (fwiw I know her period is about now)

As we were hugging goodbye she said "I really do miss you" I figured it was over at this point anyway and threw the long ball . I whispered in her ear "I love you babe" She said....why are you telling me now??? As if I should have mentioned it earlier.

I said 'would it have mattered if I told you before' She said "it might haaave" Then we 'talked' a bit more.

She said she's going to think about everything including how she now knows I "feel about her" over the weekend. So, I'm not really expecting much....but I thought I'd throw it out there because she's a great girl and wanted to keep her in my rotation.

I texted her the next day something and she texted right back "I was actually just thinking about you when I got the text"

I'm not sure if I do love her.....but like I say.....she was on her way out the door with this other guy she's got more history with. So....I dropped the I love you bomb. I didn't deeply stare in her eyes and make it some weepy moment....but did, like I say, whisper in her ear to let her know. Oh well, cards are on the table....we'll see if it does anything.

Post: #18

(10-03-2014 07:07 PM)AntiTrace Wrote:  I thought this thread was going to be about responding to the female saying it to you.

Never tell a girl you love her first. Even if you do. Never. That's not even a theory, thats law. As watertight as saying that 2+2 = 4.

True dat.

Reactions are too imprevisible, and it can get ugly down the road if the girl is not really a keeper.

Post: #19

(09-12-2013 12:14 AM)VincentVinturi Wrote:  2. It pressures her.

Only if she doesn't love you back.

Post: #20

(09-12-2013 12:14 AM)VincentVinturi Wrote:  The second time I said it was during sex. It was a very high-energy, high emotion moment close to mutual orgasm.

Be careful with this. I've done it quite a bit while hammered (maybe a part of my lizard brain meant it) and it's powerful. Women get hooked on an i love you post-orgasm and will take it very seriously. I think the passion of the moment concretes into their psyche. If you don't mean it, this is a step to the dark side, in my opinion.

(10-03-2014 07:07 PM)AntiTrace Wrote:  I thought this thread was going to be about responding to the female saying it to you.

Never tell a girl you love her first. Even if you do. Never. That's not even a theory, thats law. As watertight as saying that 2+2 = 4.

And this part below proves your point exactly.

(09-12-2013 12:14 AM)VincentVinturi Wrote:  When I said it the first time, I watched her reaction. She was a bit at a loss. She said "oh...really?" I casually replied "yeah." And moved on, paying it no further attention.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #21

(10-04-2014 10:41 AM)robreke Wrote:  I texted her the next day something and she texted right back "I was actually just thinking about you when I got the text"

I'm not sure if I do love her.....but like I say.....she was on her way out the door with this other guy she's got more history with.

Stop doing and saying things you're not sure about to save something she's not sure about.