Post: #1

This is too much:

Quote:"But even under the new common core if even if they said 3 * 4 was 11, if they were able to explain their reasoning and explain how they came up with their answer. Really in words and oral explanation and they showed it in a picture but they just got the final answer wrong. We're more focused on the how and the why."

More:

Quote:But the emphasis is moving more to the explanation, and the how, and the why, and can I really talk through the procedures that I went through to get at this answer.

This may seem just stupid, but it is inherently anti-male instruction - what smart little boy will want to sit there explaining the "how" and the "why" of such elementary problems? Utter nonsense - and it slows the math instruction down to a slow crawl so the bright students will be bored to tears.

Maybe soon they will be explaining how 3 * 4 makes them feel.

Post: #2

The government is trying to dumb down the general public as much as they can. The descendants of the elite, powerful, and wealthy, as well as the naturally gifted, will get a really good education and this will only help to spread the gap between the powerful and the weak.

It's a very well-thought out and well-planned system that will help a small group of people control the masses.

This is just one of the means.

Post: #3

In related news, we should encourage women to enter STEM fields.

Post: #4

It's a perverted socratic method.

Asking questions about someone's process is a great way to teach them - provided the questions you ask them lead them towards realizing they've made a mistake. If done properly the child will realize they've made a mistake and fix it. This is basically how I tutor and it works wonders. It also covers my ass when I'm wrong about something. The problem is if you don't lead the student towards the right answer then you question their reasoning then you're rewarding a flawed thought process. This results in people who think that simply having a reason makes their viewpoint valid. And just about every post on xojane and jezebel.

Post: #5

More of that: "It's not the destination, it's the journey" spiel.

NY Digital's right. If I have kids they're getting homeschooled or a reputable private boarding school.

Post: #6

(08-21-2013 05:48 PM)TheRookie Wrote:  This may seem just stupid, but it is inherently anti-male instruction - what smart little boy will want to sit there explaining the "how" and the "why" of such elementary problems? Utter nonsense - and it slows the math instruction down to a slow crawl so the bright students will be bored to tears.

Exactly my experience. I easily-grasped the concepts in primary school, and could tell the teacher the answer instantly. It required no thought. I didn't see why this would be considered 'wrong', but it was, and I was dragged to the Principal, back in the day when there was still corporal punishment.

"You could be cheating, or have read the answers. You need to write down the process."

"But it's slower. If the answer is right, why does it matter?"

"That's just how it's done. We can't make exceptions for you. How would the other children feel..."

Maths became the most boring subject in the world after that, and my interest degraded because of the tedious, unnecessary process to the degree that even now, I always know the answer right away, but then think i've done something wrong for not working it out slowly and methodically, so mentally then go through the longer process to arrive at the same answer.

Basically: i mentally self-sabotage my mathematical ability because of the repeated shaming of women in eduation.

I really need to train myself back out of that.

This policy is anti-male.

Post: #7

Wow. I've said it before and will say it again: My kids are not going to public school; private or tutors idgaf.

Post: #8

Did anyone watch the clip? Basically if you can show your work you get partial credit, and it's not new. That's how it was for me and I finished school quite a while ago.

Post: #9

3 * 4 = 11 should be marked wrong. But I do understand what she is getting at in making the kids provide their reasoning.

So much of school is just memorisation and regurgitating facts. Even some universities are like that. I crammed the week before university exams, memorised the facts and passed the exams. I did minimal work during the year and forgot most of the facts a few weeks after I sat the exams. I'd say about 50% of my university studies could be passed by just memorising a bunch of facts and not having to think. That is pretty crap, learning should be more than just memorisation.

The situation is worse in asian countries where the students are pushed hard to memorise the facts. Students schooled in Asia kick ass in fact reguritation at Western Universities, but ask them to write and essay or give their opinion on something and they are fucked.

The stereotype of chinese businesses is that the are great at copying but bad at creating new ideas and innovating. Maybe this is down to the way the chinese are schooled where they are just memorising and not taught to think and create.

Teaching kids to explain their answers is a good idea. Western countries need keep training their young children to think rather than memorise so we can maintain some form of advantage over asian countries. Memorising facts is becoming more and more useless with the internet and smartphones. I can just look up the answer at any time. Thinking and creating on the other hand will always be needed.

Post: #10

(08-21-2013 07:21 PM)MattW Wrote:  Did anyone watch the clip? Basically if you can show your work you get partial credit, and it's not new. That's how it was for me and I finished school quite a while ago.

This seems to go one step further though. Instead of getting partial credit, you get full credit. She even says that the emphasis is moving away from getting the right answer. How can you give someone full credit when they get the wrong answer?

Post: #11

(08-21-2013 07:21 PM)MattW Wrote:  Did anyone watch the clip? Basically if you can show your work you get partial credit, and it's not new. That's how it was for me and I finished school quite a while ago.

But if the answer was wrong ergo your method was wrong too. There's no need to reward incorrectness.

This sort of subjectivity in assessments is better suited for literature, which more open to multiple interpretations.

Post: #12

The Socratic method was never intended for people who aren't already competent in high-level abstract reasoning. It's an utterly stupid and inefficient way to teach someone something if they don't have the mental horsepower and knowledge base to converge on the correct answer quickly, otherwise you either end up asking retard-level questions to nudge them along or letting them go down blind alleys with their incorrect reasoning.

It arguably shouldn't even be used with high school students. Trying to apply it on a grade school level is an utter perversion, the Greek philosophers are rolling in their graves.

TheRookie is right--this is going to make smart kids bored to tears while they wait for little Susie to finish her empowering chat with the teacher about how she should feel good about being wrong and having wrong reasons because her thoughts were so original and she's a special little snowflake. Just teach them the goddamn multiplication tables, being able to do basic arithmetic quickly is a necessary skill that kids should not be cheated out of.

Post: #13

(08-21-2013 07:39 PM)RonnieB Wrote:  3 * 4 = 11 should be marked wrong. But I do understand what she is getting at in making the kids provide their reasoning.

So much of school is just memorisation and regurgitating facts. Even some universities are like that. I crammed the week before university exams, memorised the facts and passed the exams. I did minimal work during the year and forgot most of the facts a few weeks after I sat the exams. I'd say about 50% of my university studies could be passed by just memorising a bunch of facts and not having to think. That is pretty crap, learning should be more than just memorisation.

The situation is worse in asian countries where the students are pushed hard to memorise the facts. Students schooled in Asia kick ass in fact reguritation at Western Universities, but ask them to write and essay or give their opinion on something and they are fucked.

The stereotype of chinese businesses is that the are great at copying but bad at creating new ideas and innovating. Maybe this is down to the way the chinese are schooled where they are just memorising and not taught to think and create.

Teaching kids to explain their answers is a good idea. Western countries need keep training their young children to think rather than memorise so we can maintain some form of advantage over asian countries. Memorising facts is becoming more and more useless with the internet and smartphones. I can just look up the answer at any time. Thinking and creating on the other hand will always be needed.

This is one of the best posts I've seen on education. Memorizing for exams supports credentialism. Get a piece of paper, get rewarded by the system even though you're brain dead. We need thinkers and doers and creators.

In response to those who just "got it" and didn't want to show reasoning, a good system would present you something you couldn't just get and force you to reason. No system is perfect. We need the system to stop rewarding cramming for exams by memorizing facts or the country is finished.

Post: #14

(08-21-2013 07:39 PM)RonnieB Wrote:  Teaching kids to explain their answers is a good idea. Western countries need keep training their young children to think rather than memorise so we can maintain some form of advantage over asian countries. Memorising facts is becoming more and more useless with the internet and smartphones. I can just look up the answer at any time. Thinking and creating on the other hand will always be needed.

I agree with this, but part of explaining their answer should be showing an understanding of where they screwed up. If a kid explains his answer but doesn't get where he made the mistake there is no learning. The learning comes from realizing your error during the explanation process.

Post: #15

2+2=5. Orwell was right.

Post: #16

I wonder if these people genuinely believe they are benefiting anyone...

Post: #17

(08-21-2013 07:42 PM)Goldin Boy Wrote:  But if the answer was wrong ergo your method was wrong too. There's no need to reward incorrectness.

This sort of subjectivity in assessments is better suited for literature, which more open to multiple interpretations.

Not necessarily. The method can be 100% correct, but you accidentally mess something up, e.g. copying wrong or just a mental mistake.

Post: #18

Just another step in the process.

"Education should aim at destroying free will so that after pupils are thus schooled they will be incapable throughout the rest of their lives of thinking or acting otherwise than as their school masters would have wished ... The social psychologist of the future will have a number of classes of school children on whom they will try different methods of producing an unshakable conviction that snow is black. When the technique has been perfected, every government that has been in charge of education for more than one generation will be able to control its subjects securely without the need of armies or policemen." -----Bertrand Russell

Post: #19

The whole point of all these new Common Core tests coming out is to show "critical thinking" skills, which essentially gives bullshitters a HUGE margin for error.

Like a common (english) question might be, after reading 2 passages "Based on the opinions expressed by Author A, how would he likely respond to the point made by Author B"

And you basically get points for any answer which references both Author's names and what they talked about, even if your answer is totally baseless. But if you just give the correct answer without making proper references to the ideas and authors expressed you can get an answer wrong.

Let's say Author A would basically disagree with Author B.

So if you wrote "Based on Author A's opinion on the topic of X, he would likely conclude that Author B's opinion on the topic of X was interesting and insightful, due to Author B's statement that 'blah blah blah'".

That would be OK, even if wrong.

But if you wrote:

He would disagree

That would get zero credit, even though it's correct. And trust me, many students write this way.

Basically what they're looking for is wordy academic drivel.

Post: #20

Don't get me started.

It's not the children. It's the adults that are the problem.

Post: #21

Of course this conversation has been going on since the mid 60s.

See Tom Lehrer c.a. 1965:

Post: #22

Hamster logic in action. If you feel strongly enough that 3 * 4 = 11, well, by golly, 3 * 4 is 11 for you. Because it's all about feelings and facts be damned.

Post: #23

(08-21-2013 09:17 PM)TheKantian Wrote:  Not necessarily. The method can be 100% correct, but you accidentally mess something up, e.g. copying wrong or just a mental mistake.

What is the point of teaching someone that it's ok to get things wrong, as long as you can explain why or you know ? It makes literally no sense at all

Getting over a 50% mark here is considered a pass. Marks are awarded for your working... Leaving say 25% of the final answers you actually need to have correct to pass a test. Let's see, if we released a fresh bunch of graduates into the industry who are only actually getting the right numbers 25-50% of the time what the fuck is going to happen to all the projects they're working on?

The point where a condom breaks is now 3.4*10⁴ instead of 6.0*10⁵, because someone did all the working correctly but messed up a number somewhere. Suddenly there are bitches getting pregnant left right and centre and more retarded babies than we know what to do with. Suddenly mothers are starting to die during abortions because, while the doctors are practicing the right methods, they are only performing the right procedure 50% of the time. On the plus side, you won the lotto today - unfortunately, you only got $240.00 instead of $240,000. They were pretty close, and it's better than nothing - at least you can enjoy a nice meal at a restaurant for the first time in a while... except the chefs cooked your salmon the way they should cook a steak. Hey, at least they demonstrated that they know the method for cooking a steak, right? On the way home, after your meal, you get to a set of traffic lights and half of the lights have been put on upside down so no one knows whether to go or stop and it's pandemonium and chaos, and ambulances are crashing into the fire trucks which are crashing into civilian cars and the building to the right is about to collapse because, while the foundations are solid, they are uneven and the building is leaning over to one side, putting more stress on the already over worked structure.

A bit ridiculous, but I think I made my point..

I also find it interesting that they're encouraging the children to justify why they did something, but they themselves can never explain to the children (or even understand, probably) why they do the things they do in school.

Post: #24

(08-21-2013 09:17 PM)TheKantian Wrote:  

(08-21-2013 07:42 PM)Goldin Boy Wrote:  But if the answer was wrong ergo your method was wrong too. There's no need to reward incorrectness.

This sort of subjectivity in assessments is better suited for literature, which more open to multiple interpretations.

Not necessarily. The method can be 100% correct, but you accidentally mess something up, e.g. copying wrong or just a mental mistake.

If the the question was 4 * 3 and the kid write 11 in the answer box with the second "1" having been an accident, he's still wrong.

I went to a dentist for a root canal on tooth on the left side of my mouth a year ago. She was gonna anethesize the right side but I asked what the hell was she doing.

She had the x-ray upside down. She knows how to do a root canal but would've done the wrong tooth.

If I were asleep(which I insisted against) should I have said:"It's ok that her end result was wrong as the did the procedure correctly" after jacking up a good tooth?

Post: #25

(08-21-2013 07:13 PM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  

(08-21-2013 05:48 PM)TheRookie Wrote:  This may seem just stupid, but it is inherently anti-male instruction - what smart little boy will want to sit there explaining the "how" and the "why" of such elementary problems? Utter nonsense - and it slows the math instruction down to a slow crawl so the bright students will be bored to tears.

Exactly my experience. I easily-grasped the concepts in primary school, and could tell the teacher the answer instantly. It required no thought. I didn't see why this would be considered 'wrong', but it was, and I was dragged to the Principal, back in the day when there was still corporal punishment.

"You could be cheating, or have read the answers. You need to write down the process."

"But it's slower. If the answer is right, why does it matter?"

"That's just how it's done. We can't make exceptions for you. How would the other children feel..."

Maths became the most boring subject in the world after that, and my interest degraded because of the tedious, unnecessary process to the degree that even now, I always know the answer right away, but then think i've done something wrong for not working it out slowly and methodically, so mentally then go through the longer process to arrive at the same answer.

Basically: i mentally self-sabotage my mathematical ability because of the repeated shaming of women in eduation.

I really need to train myself back out of that.

This policy is anti-male.

I can relate Bosch. I was advanced in Math until my family moved across the country to a school district that taught the dumbed-down new age math, where showing your steps and demonstrating processes is more important than getting the right answer. Lost interest in math almost immediately.