Post: #151

Hervens, I agree with you. But how can you be good at problem solving?

is there any course or book or anything you can share with us? I tried to find the logic, the background behind problem solving and all I could find was this guy V. Anton Spraul with Think like a programmer but the book is written for those who know about C++ I think.

is problem solving something we can learn by following what you wrote earlier? Learn the fundamentals of software development in itself, such as object oriented concepts and patterns, linked list, multithreading, queues and stacks, Arrays, client-server architecture, SQL, etc.

and isnt SQL something that is outside programming? Sorry for asking but just want to have all my ducks in a row and make no wrongful assumptions

thanks

Post: #152

I fucked up.

I handed in my notice before I was actually made an offer, but its all worked out ok.. I wont be doing that again though.

I turned down the better-paying one because the recruiters lied to me about legal stuff and were actually laughing on the phone when I was talking to them

So I've taken the one for 260 a day, and I'll be doing a little remote work for my current employer, as they won't be able to find someone to replace me before I leave.

So I'll be making over £1500 a week, pretty decent for 2 years progress.

Had another job interview day that had been scheduled for a while, & I think I bombed it. Almost messed up a simple list-slice, the pressure got to me

(09-13-2014 12:30 AM)rekruler Wrote:  Long time lurker in this thread. It's probably one of the most inspirational threads on RVF, hands down. It got me motivated to seriously start learning programming, despite the fact I've got a decent paying job at the moment. Possessing a readily marketable skillset that is in demand all over the world is just too much to pass up.

@ frenchcorporation, I've got a couple questions for you. During your initial 8 month long learning process, did you focus solely on Python or also work on HTML, CSS, and a client side scripting language? Also, did you land your first job strictly on the basis of your python skills? I've done some initial due diligence on junior dev positions for different languages and most seem to require strong skills in that language as well as a crapload of other stuff like databases, linux, etc. In general, how much ancillary expertise is needed in addition to your main language in order to land a job?

Much appreciated!

I focused on just python initially, then when i started learning django(the python web development framework), i started learning html and css. but html + css are straightforward, most of my learning for that has been on the job, learning individual things when necessary

I only had just python and a little html/css when i got my first job, your mileage wlll vary, but if you can show a couple decent projects in your language of choice, that'll be enough to get a junior job

And if you develop the software on linux you'll gain that knowledge as you go, & youll also gain database knowledge as you go

Post: #153

Just signed up for team treehouse. I'm very excited to start, as I have been looking to start learning something like this but didn't know how and where.

I would highly recommend this to all IT guys, especially younger ones. One of my short-term goals is to gain enough knowledge and experience (on my own, as I won't be quitting my job/company anytime soon) so that I can start my own web development business. Obviously small at first, but as I gain more knowledge in this field (**Investing in my self-worth**), I will add to my portfolio and overall services.


It only goes up from there fellas. Technology meets art, and there you have the widest possible audience/customer base than any other industry (obviously a slight exaggeration, but the you get the point).

Cheers and thank you Frenchie!!

Post: #154

@frenchcorporation
As you have finished some of the tutorials mentioned in this thread, how did you find bigger exercises with solutions?

I mean every tutorial has the same points which it's covering but those topics are only the simple ones. I don't know where to get "real tasks" like the companys did/code.

Do you have any advises for us?

Edit: Would you recommend starting with version 3 or 2? I started with 3 and it turned bad because all the tutorials are written with version 2 code of python. Now I switched the interpreter.. Did you find any problems during your carrier when it comes to the difference regarding the versions?

Post: #155

(09-17-2014 04:23 PM)RandomGuy1 Wrote:  @frenchcorporation
As you have finished some of the tutorials mentioned in this thread, how did you find bigger exercises with solutions?

I mean every tutorial has the same points which it's covering but those topics are only the simple ones. I don't know where to get "real tasks" like the companys did/code.

Do you have any advises for us?

Edit: Would you recommend starting with version 3 or 2? I started with 3 and it turned bad because all the tutorials are written with version 2 code of python. Now I switched the interpreter.. Did you find any problems during your carrier when it comes to the difference regarding the versions?

When i finished the python tutorials, I went onto tutorials for a python framework(django).
When i had done the tutorials for that and understood the basics, I started making my own applications, from an idea i had, e.g a hotel reservation system, an expenses tracker etc

If theres something I needed to do that I hadnt encountered before, I'd google it


Python 2 is the most widely used in industry, but most popular python packages work with 2 and 3.

If you want to push yourself you can continue with python3, then figure out the incompatibilities as you go. But switching to python 2.7x is also fine

Post: #156

How many applications did you put together before your first job?

I've made a few unfinished apps with PHP/jquery but am thinking of switching to Python/Django as I find PHP frustrating and the open source stuff out there does not seem so good.

Post: #157

(09-19-2014 05:18 PM)mymotivation Wrote:  How many applications did you put together before your first job?

I've made a few unfinished apps with PHP/jquery but am thinking of switching to Python/Django as I find PHP frustrating and the open source stuff out there does not seem so good.

I had made 1 application,the django polls app (https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.7/intro/tutorial01/) and it was basic, I'm embarrased by it now. But hey, it got me a job

Post: #158

My buddy actually wrote a book on Django; PM me if you're interested and I'll shoot you the source.

Python can be iffy for web applications since most of the stuff I know uses PHP. Are you sure you want to maintain the Python route without learning at least the ins-and-outs of PHP as well as its frameworks?

Post: #159

(09-20-2014 03:41 AM)HawkWrites Wrote:  My buddy actually wrote a book on Django; PM me if you're interested and I'll shoot you the source.

Python can be iffy for web applications since most of the stuff I know uses PHP. Are you sure you want to maintain the Python route without learning at least the ins-and-outs of PHP as well as its frameworks?

I don't want to learn PHP, I've heard enough horror stories to stay away indefinitely

And, I'm trying to get out of web-dev, and into more difficult stuff. My newest role is web dev, but after that I'm going to try and get into financial trading backend stuff, I'm learning scala for this purpose

Post: #160

Wow! You want to get out this quick of the field of web-dev. Are there any particular reasons why you decided to do so (e.g. low salary, long working hours)? Good luck!

Post: #161

(09-20-2014 06:04 AM)RandomGuy1 Wrote:  Wow! You want to get out this quick of the field of web-dev. Are there any particular reasons why you decided to do so (e.g. low salary, long working hours)? Good luck!

The money is fine, I'm just trying to get into more difficult stuff, maths-wise, for job security and career longevity. And the money is better

Post: #162

Here's another data point. I've been programming / building infrastructure / systems administration for 16 years and I'm based out of San Francisco. I run a consulting business (I'm the only employee) and generally work contracts that are 3-6 months long. My daily bill rate is currently about $1100. I take time off to travel between contracts. If you put the time in, it's definitely worth it. Let me know if you're thinking about getting into the biz and have questions.

Post: #163

(09-20-2014 07:28 AM)frenchcorporation Wrote:  The money is fine, I'm just trying to get into more difficult stuff, maths-wise, for job security and career longevity. And the money is better

Ah okay, got you.

When you are in a good mood could you please drop some notes about the "lifestyle" that you have during the time were you worked as a programmer. For example did you experience a lot of cockfighting at your workplace because other employees didn't liked you because you were not that much qualified and asked a lot of questions to them.

Thanks!

Post: #164

(09-20-2014 03:31 AM)frenchcorporation Wrote:  

(09-19-2014 05:18 PM)mymotivation Wrote:  How many applications did you put together before your first job?

I've made a few unfinished apps with PHP/jquery but am thinking of switching to Python/Django as I find PHP frustrating and the open source stuff out there does not seem so good.

I had made 1 application,the django polls app (https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.7/intro/tutorial01/) and it was basic, I'm embarrased by it now. But hey, it got me a job

You got a job just off that project alone? That gives me more confidence in what I'm doing as I assumed it would take more.

I have struggled and been frustrated in putting together my own little personal projects, but I guess I just need to do enough to get that first job and then the learning really begins?

Post: #165

(09-20-2014 03:41 AM)HawkWrites Wrote:  My buddy actually wrote a book on Django; PM me if you're interested and I'll shoot you the source.

Python can be iffy for web applications since most of the stuff I know uses PHP. Are you sure you want to maintain the Python route without learning at least the ins-and-outs of PHP as well as its frameworks?

Interesting point. I'm personally interested in working in Asia. So on the one hand, learning PHP may seem like the proper route to follow since it's the most commonly used back-end language and presumably has the most plentiful and widespread job opportunities. On the other hand, being the industry standard I'd guess it's a skill that's become highly commoditized and finding a job, in Asia, that pays close to Western wages may be near impossible.

Python on the other hand seems to be hot right now but more of a niche field, that offers highly paid opportunities but mostly for "cutting-edge" stuff like finance quants and startups, and mostly in London, NYC, and Silicon Valley.

I personally need to GTFO of the West and back to Asia pronto, but on the other hand, I don't want to be competing against Indian and Filipino grinders for lowest-common-denominator type work. Would you guys advise going with PHP, python, or something else entirely? Right now I'm focusing on HTML, CSS, and Javascript as these are universal, but I haven't made a commitment to a server-side language yet.

I've taken a CS course in college and have dabbled with programming in the past so I know how OOP works as well as generic shit like loops etc so at this point my major challenge is to pick a server side language/framework and learn how the whole server-side business works. I'd appreciate any advice!

Post: #166

(09-20-2014 05:47 PM)RandomGuy1 Wrote:  

(09-20-2014 07:28 AM)frenchcorporation Wrote:  The money is fine, I'm just trying to get into more difficult stuff, maths-wise, for job security and career longevity. And the money is better

Ah okay, got you.

When you are in a good mood could you please drop some notes about the "lifestyle" that you have during the time were you worked as a programmer. For example did you experience a lot of cockfighting at your workplace because other employees didn't liked you because you were not that much qualified and asked a lot of questions to them.

Thanks!

I'll split my experiences up by each job

1st job - My title was junior python developer, worked in a team of about 8, on the same python/django app, my colleagues were fine to get along with, and helpful the entire time I was there. I tried not to waste their time with questions that google could solve, I did my due diligence each time I had a problem.
I lived about 30 minutes away by train in a big city, which wasnt the smartest idea, even though I had a great time in said city

2nd (current) job - I learnt my lesson and live 20 minutes walk away from work, the technical team here has 3 people; myself as lead, another python developer, and a QA. I enjoy this job a lot more because I have more responsibilty, the pay is better, & I get on with my colleagues even better than the last place

At this place there isnt anybody to ask when I have a problem, so I've had to sort it out on my own, which I think has benefitted me a lot

Post: #167

(09-21-2014 05:26 AM)mymotivation Wrote:  

(09-20-2014 03:31 AM)frenchcorporation Wrote:  

(09-19-2014 05:18 PM)mymotivation Wrote:  How many applications did you put together before your first job?

I've made a few unfinished apps with PHP/jquery but am thinking of switching to Python/Django as I find PHP frustrating and the open source stuff out there does not seem so good.

I had made 1 application,the django polls app (https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.7/intro/tutorial01/) and it was basic, I'm embarrased by it now. But hey, it got me a job

You got a job just off that project alone? That gives me more confidence in what I'm doing as I assumed it would take more.

I have struggled and been frustrated in putting together my own little personal projects, but I guess I just need to do enough to get that first job and then the learning really begins?

Yeah I got a job just off the polls tutorial, your mileage will vary though

Post: #168

(09-20-2014 07:46 AM)allthethings Wrote:  Here's another data point. I've been programming / building infrastructure / systems administration for 16 years and I'm based out of San Francisco. I run a consulting business (I'm the only employee) and generally work contracts that are 3-6 months long. My daily bill rate is currently about $1100. I take time off to travel between contracts. If you put the time in, it's definitely worth it. Let me know if you're thinking about getting into the biz and have questions.

I used to make $1200-1500 per day in SF. My contracts last as short as 3 months but usually go over a year. Are these direct clients or do you subcontract (work with agencies)?

Post: #169

Looks like Roosh was right, the nerds are taking over the world, not the hustlers.


That said -

(09-21-2014 03:45 PM)rekruler Wrote:  I personally need to GTFO of the West and back to Asia pronto, but on the other hand, I don't want to be competing against Indian and Filipino grinders for lowest-common-denominator type work.

I can't speak for how things are in the UK (the OP seems to be doing well), but the sentiment above is the 800 pound gorilla in the room.

I hear two sides of the story; one, that coders are desperately needed but two, they can outsource a lot of this stuff to India, Philippines, etc. As we speak Microsoft plans to lay off 18,000 workers while still campaigning to get H1-B restrictions (guest work visas) eased in the US, some would say so that they can get cheap Indian labor to come over and work for periods of 3 years, renewable to 6.

It would really suck to plus up on some coding skills only to be told "sorry, you're too expensive."

That, and assuming you do progress with a coding skill, eventually to move on to senior positions a CS degree is usually expected. I have seen a few people hit the ceiling because of lack of a degree; not sure how wide spread this trend is.

Any thoughts?

Post: #170

(09-22-2014 02:59 PM)Jack198 Wrote:  Any thoughts?

Yeah, outsourcing is a big issue, in fact, my current job is getting partly outsourced now that I'm leaving. There are known issues with outsourcing though, which is slowing down the increase of outsourcing.

Which is why im trying to get out of the "low hanging fruit" area of web apps, and into more difficult/restricted stuff

There are jobs that require UK citizenship of X years, strong maths skills, fluent/native english, security clearance etc..these jobs are not going to get outsourced first

Post: #171

Don't be so scared of outsourcing. In my experience and from what I've read, the vast majority of coders in China, India, Philippines are not good, they write bloated redundant code, and if they are any good, they will charge close to western rates.

I've inquired with a couple of highly recommended Indian devs and they charge high rates. Not western elite rates, but still very far from the $10/hour which people seem to think is the going rate.

Frenchcorporation, you still seem to be smart about it and keep developing new skill sets, doesn't have to be coding, but can be math or design or whatever. The point is to not be one of those 50 year old early adopters who havent taken a course in 25 years and still want to be paid top dollar.

Post: #172

(09-22-2014 04:16 PM)berserk Wrote:  Don't be so scared of outsourcing. In my experience and from what I've read, the vast majority of coders in China, India, Philippines are not good, they write bloated redundant code, and if they are any good, they will charge close to western rates.

I've inquired with a couple of highly recommended Indian devs and they charge high rates. Not western elite rates, but still very far from the $10/hour which people seem to think is the going rate.

Frenchcorporation, you still seem to be smart about it and keep developing new skill sets, doesn't have to be coding, but can be math or design or whatever. The point is to not be one of those 50 year old early adopters who havent taken a course in 25 years and still want to be paid top dollar.

That's good to know; kind of what I figured - they can outsource the basic stuff; data management tasks, help desks and the grunt work of coding, but the bigger stuff still takes bigger talent, and even Indians won't work that level for peanuts.

Security cleared work is huge in DC right now - I've heard even a Java developer can get almost 200k with a top secret clearance and a full scope polygraph (necessary to work at places like the NSA). That said you would have to work in and around DC, which as Roosh says sucks for single (straight) guys.

Post: #173

I'm not an expert, don't take my career advice, I am just saying that no job or career can guarantee you anything in 20 years the way the world seems to evolve. At least with programming, you have skills which won't be obsolete in 20 years.

Post: #174

(09-22-2014 05:33 AM)bad guy Wrote:  I used to make $1200-1500 per day in SF. My contracts last as short as 3 months but usually go over a year. Are these direct clients or do you subcontract (work with agencies)?

hey bad buy,

These are all direct clients that I met either from networking events or from referrals from friends / old colleagues. My shortest contract was 3 months and the longest 10.

A few years ago I did remote consulting but back then I was only making $560 a day. I'd like to do remote consulting again but I'm concerned that I wouldn't be able to make as much as if I were in the client's office on a regular basis. The question I need to ask myself is: Am I willing to take a paycut so I have the flexibility to game in target rich environments (which SF is not)?

I'm going to hit you up with a PM.

Post: #175

...SF is not a target rich environment?

You're surrounded by homosexual men and hipsters - how challenging can it be?