Post: #1

Who would've thought the Unabomber would give me different perspective on how I view race?

For shits and giggles I was reading the Unabomber's manifesto and came across this passage:

Quote:The leftists will reply that the
last thing they want is to make the black man into a copy of the white
man; instead, they want to preserve African American culture. But in
what does this preservation of African American culture consist? It
can hardly consist in anything more than eating black-style food,
listening to black-style music, wearing black-style clothing and going
to a black-style church or mosque. In other words, it can express
itself only in superficial matters. In all ESSENTIAL respects more
leftists of the oversocialized type want to make the black man conform
to white, middle-class ideals.

Officially on the record, I'm black and grew up in Oakland in the 1980s. At least before we hightailed it for the suburbs.

At work today I was jamming out to The Isley Brother's "Who's That Lady?" (video below) and I thought how I wouldn't be caught dead listening to anything with a guitar when I was growing up.

Because guitars and rock music were something "other people" did.

Because "real" black people listened to rap.

Because we were so all deathly afraid and hyper vigilant about not "acting white."

Looking back that whole attitude has to be one of the DUMBEST mindsets to INFECT our community at the time.

Especially considering the black influence on the musical landscape in the United States. Jazz, Blues, R&B, Rock & Roll. And then in the 80s, two generations after our forefathers helped create the art form we then decide that in order to assert our "true" blackness that we must REJECT it wholesale?

I feel cheated and duped out of my cultural heritage.

Instead of a new generation of rockers being bred in the inner cities, we now get... Lil' Wayne??? Wiz Khalifa???

And what about the mindset that in order to assert who YOU ARE that you must define yourself IN OPPOSITION to someone else. Looking back I think this is a ghetto mindset. I certainly didn't grow up in the ghetto, but went to school with those that did. Essentially I think the attitude is, "You don't like us? You think we're pieces of shit? Ok, we don't like you!"

And everything the ghetto mindsetters associate with the dominant group will become stigmatized. Thus, rejecting OUR OWN CULTURAL HERITAGE instead of celebrating it.

Ridiculous.

Enjoy some good music.

Post: #2

Good thread. A one surprising example of a black contribution to American culture is the banjo. I always assumed the banjo was a quintessential expression of white Southern and Appalachian culture. While it has European antecedents, the banjo is basically descended from West African stringed instruments such as the kora. Yup, slaves brought over their native instrument and laid the foundation for traditional American genres like bluegrass. Yet instruments like this are not considered black today.

Post: #3

The Unabomber had some very unkind things to say about leftist SWPL types. It actually reminded me a lot of what Nietzsche said about slave morality.

Post: #4

Beautiful post.

While I in no way approve of your Muse's chosen tactics, I personally find it refreshing to be reminded that there are culturally-like-minded of color out there.

Post: #5

Unfortunately the guitar is low in the mix in this version. Still worth watching, though.





Trivia: Jimi Hendrix played with the Isley Brothers. He even lived with them for awhile. Jimi and Carlos Santana were the two biggest influences for guitarist Ernie Isley, as one can tell from the guitar solo in "That Lady, Part 1 & 2." You can also see Ernie playing behind his back and with his teeth in the video I posted above; two ideas he picked up from Jimi! Even though That Lady is a bit overplayed, and has even been in shampoo and cleaning product commercials, I still enjoy it every time I hear it. Great song.

On the subject of black guitarists, Eddie Hazel is another all-time great. He played with P-Funk. Here's one of his best tracks, a cover of California Dreamin':





On the subject of The Unabomber, here's another quote from his manifesto that rings eerliy true:

Quote:Imagine a society that subjects people to conditions that make them terribly unhappy then gives them the drugs to take away their unhappiness. Science fiction It is already happening to some extent in our own society. Instead of removing the conditions that make people depressed modern society gives them antidepressant drugs. In effect antidepressants are a means of modifying an individual's internal state in such a way as to enable him to tolerate social conditions that he would otherwise find intolerable.

Post: #6

If the unabomber focused on blogging instead of bombing, he would have a large red pill readership.

Post: #7

When I was a teenager living in North Philly I hid from my friends the fact that I really liked Nirvana, Smashing Pumpkins, and played guitar. I remember having to explain to friends coming over my house why I had a Pearl Jam CD out, or what was that screaming coming out of my headphones when we all walked to school. I know the frustration all too well. I spent many years hating the people in my neighborhood because I couldn't share this wonderful thing with them, cause it wasn't "black." Now that I'm older I kinda see the relevence in attaching to your roots, and especially to young kids attaching yourself to something that's special and outside of the mainstream. Let's face it, Little Richard and Hendrix was a LONG time ago. Most YBM's in the 80's and 90's just didn't relate to that, the same way young punks today latch on to a watered down copy of a copy of what punk rock really was, not the ethos of Sex Pistols and Richard Hell. It's just the way it is. Most people are stupid and don't read the history. Thank MTV and BET for that, telling us that hip hop is for blacks and anything guitar related is for whites, and us blindly beleiving it.

It kinda reminds me of a book by Thomas Sewell called "Black Rednecks and White Liberals." In it he basically says white liberals are actually hurting black Americans more than helping them, and don't truly accept them as equals any more than old school white republicans do. It's a depressing book that makes you see America as a nice mix of fuckery on both sides, which personally makes me sure I made the right decision by moving myself and all my stuff permanently overseas. Sewell is a black republican but he seems to be not so eager to jump on the "all YBM's are terrible people and need to be fixed" mantra, so I read a lot of his stuff.

Post: #8

Jimi Hendrix started his career as a guitarist with the Isley Brothers. And I remember the looks I would get when I was a teenager when people found out that I listened to metal. My first metal tape (yes bitches, it was a tape) was Shout At The Devil, by Motley Crüe. And Ozzy Osbourne was my first concert. I blame the Road Warriors, because they played Black Sabbath's Iron Man as they came to the ring. I loved that song.

Post: #9

Ernie Isley is actually one of the greater guitarists out there, and as a group, they were a mix of influences (rock, pop, funk, soul...you name it).

Post: #10

(05-30-2013 05:37 AM)americanInEurope Wrote:  It kinda reminds me of a book by Thomas Sewell called "Black Rednecks and White Liberals." In it he basically says white liberals are actually hurting black Americans more than helping them, and don't truly accept them as equals any more than old school white republicans do.

I've always found this to be true in my experience. I've found many white liberals to be liberal about many issues except race. They don't really see non-whites as peers or equals. It's all about "accepting" and "tolerating," which isn't the same as seeing someone as a peer.

Post: #11

Interesting stuff. I love these complex breakdowns of why people think and act the way they do.

Basically, we are all brainwashed in one way or another. A few of us undue the brainwashing. Most of us stay brainwashed our entire lives.

(05-30-2013 12:34 AM)Wutang Wrote:  The Unabomber had some very unkind things to say about leftist SWPL types. It actually reminded me a lot of what Nietzsche said about slave morality.

What did the unabomber say about leftist swpl types?

What did Nietzsche say about slave morality?

Thanks

Post: #12

As a white guy who grew up in the hood, and still lives there, I can relate. When I was in middle/high school I was one of the few white people in my school. It was the early 90's and rap was just starting to gain mainstream acceptance. Since most of my friends were black I used to avoid any kind of rock that reminded of that "something". As I got older I started to realize that liberalism essentially divided the races in terms of stereotypes, and most white kids I know today are self-hating. I still hate when black friends of mine say that I'm "black" because I can relate to their background, when it's really just cultural upbringing, and being brainwashed.

Post: #13

(05-30-2013 01:30 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  Interesting stuff. I love these complex breakdowns of why people think and act the way they do.

Basically, we are all brainwashed in one way or another. A few of us undue the brainwashing. Most of us stay brainwashed our entire lives.

(05-30-2013 12:34 AM)Wutang Wrote:  The Unabomber had some very unkind things to say about leftist SWPL types. It actually reminded me a lot of what Nietzsche said about slave morality.

What did the unabomber say about leftist swpl types?

What did Nietzsche say about slave morality?

Thanks

To see what the Unabomber said about leftist SWPL types, take a look at his manifesto in the sections "The Psychology of Modern Leftism" and "Feelings of Inferiority". Some choices quotes:

13. Many leftists have an intense identification with the problems of
groups that have an image of being weak (women), defeated(American
Indians), repellent (homosexuals), or otherwise inferior. The leftists
themselves feel that these groups are inferior. They would never admit
it to themselves that they have such feelings, but it is precisely
because they do see these groups as inferior that they identify with
their problems. (We do not suggest that women, Indians, etc., ARE
inferior; we are only making a point about leftist psychology).

14. Feminists are desperately anxious to prove that women are as
strong as capable as men. Clearly they are nagged by a fear that women may NOT be as strong and as capable as men.

15. Leftists tend to hate anything that has an image of being strong,
good and successful. They hate America, they hate Western
civilization, they hate white males, they hate rationality. The
reasons that leftists give for hating the West, etc. clearly do not
correspond with their real motives. They SAY they hate the West
because it is warlike, imperialistic, sexist, ethnocentric and so
forth, but where these same faults appear in socialist countries or in
primitive cultures, the leftist finds excuses for them, or at best he
GRUDGINGLY admits that they exist; whereas he ENTHUSIASTICALLY points out (and often greatly exaggerates) these faults where they appear inWestern civilization. Thus it is clear that these faults are not the leftist's real motive for hating America and the West. He hates America and the West because they are strong and successful.

As for Nietzsche wrote about slave morality, I'll give a quick run down. He identifies slave morality being associated with people from the under class of any society - the ones that are oppressed and looked down on. He used Christians in the Roman Empire as a case study. These people hate those who rule over and have power over them but being that they have no power themselves and are able to respond directly, instead they respond by saying that the power their oppressors possess is actually a weakness and evil while their own condition is what is holy. In the case of Christians in the Roman Empire, they castigated those who were strong and saw power as a vice while being meek and humble as a virtue.

Post: #14

(05-30-2013 02:17 PM)Wutang Wrote:  

(05-30-2013 01:30 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  Interesting stuff. I love these complex breakdowns of why people think and act the way they do.

Basically, we are all brainwashed in one way or another. A few of us undue the brainwashing. Most of us stay brainwashed our entire lives.

(05-30-2013 12:34 AM)Wutang Wrote:  The Unabomber had some very unkind things to say about leftist SWPL types. It actually reminded me a lot of what Nietzsche said about slave morality.

What did the unabomber say about leftist swpl types?

What did Nietzsche say about slave morality?

Thanks

To see what the Unabomber said about leftist SWPL types, take a look at his manifesto in the sections "The Psychology of Modern Leftism" and "Feelings of Inferiority". Some choices quotes:

13. Many leftists have an intense identification with the problems of
groups that have an image of being weak (women), defeated(American
Indians), repellent (homosexuals), or otherwise inferior. The leftists
themselves feel that these groups are inferior. They would never admit
it to themselves that they have such feelings, but it is precisely
because they do see these groups as inferior that they identify with
their problems. (We do not suggest that women, Indians, etc., ARE
inferior; we are only making a point about leftist psychology).

14. Feminists are desperately anxious to prove that women are as
strong as capable as men. Clearly they are nagged by a fear that women may NOT be as strong and as capable as men.

15. Leftists tend to hate anything that has an image of being strong,
good and successful. They hate America, they hate Western
civilization, they hate white males, they hate rationality. The
reasons that leftists give for hating the West, etc. clearly do not
correspond with their real motives. They SAY they hate the West
because it is warlike, imperialistic, sexist, ethnocentric and so
forth, but where these same faults appear in socialist countries or in
primitive cultures, the leftist finds excuses for them, or at best he
GRUDGINGLY admits that they exist; whereas he ENTHUSIASTICALLY points out (and often greatly exaggerates) these faults where they appear inWestern civilization. Thus it is clear that these faults are not the leftist's real motive for hating America and the West. He hates America and the West because they are strong and successful.

As for Nietzsche wrote about slave morality, I'll give a quick run down. He identifies slave morality being associated with people from the under class of any society - the ones that are oppressed and looked down on. He used Christians in the Roman Empire as a case study. These people hate those who rule over and have power over them but being that they have no power themselves and are able to respond directly, instead they respond by saying that the power their oppressors possess is actually a weakness and evil while their own condition is what is holy. In the case of Christians in the Roman Empire, they castigated those who were strong and saw power as a vice while being meek and humble as a virtue.

Thank you the detailed response.

This shit is very interesting.

Wu-Tang forever! I'm listening to Liquid Swords now. They Rza and The Gza talk about this stuff a lot in their music. Mind control. Thought control. The masters, the masses.

Post: #15

(05-30-2013 12:21 AM)BLarsen Wrote:  At work today I was jamming out to The Isley Brother's "Who's That Lady?" (video below) and I thought how I wouldn't be caught dead listening to anything with a guitar when I was growing up.

Because guitars and rock music were something "other people" did.

Because "real" black people listened to rap.

Because we were so all deathly afraid and hyper vigilant about not "acting white."

Looking back that whole attitude has to be one of the DUMBEST mindsets to INFECT our community at the time.

Especially considering the black influence on the musical landscape in the United States. Jazz, Blues, R&B, Rock & Roll. And then in the 80s, two generations after our forefathers helped create the art form we then decide that in order to assert our "true" blackness that we must REJECT it wholesale?

That is interesting.

Didn't you listen to the samples that were used in Hip-Hop?

I think older kids grew up on more soul.

Another interesting thing about "Who's that Lady" (actually called "That Lady") is it was first sampled by the Beastie Boys:

Post: #16

(05-30-2013 02:48 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  That is interesting.

Didn't you listen to the samples that were used in Hip-Hop?

Back then was different.

*Cassette tapes with little or no liner information
*No internet to research said liner notes. (Prodigy? Early AOL???)
*No YouTube to research any info you would have found on the liner notes.

Most of what I listened to back then (Dr. Dre, Snoop, Ice Cube) was heavily sampled, but I had no way of knowing that, I thought it was all their original stuff! So nieve...

Anyways, I remember the original point that I wanted to make by bringing the Unabomber into the discussion.

Quote:But in
what does this preservation of African American culture consist? It
can hardly consist in anything more than eating black-style food,
listening to black-style music, wearing black-style clothing and going
to a black-style church or mosque. In other words, it can express
itself only in superficial matters.

EXACTLY. I married (and divorced) into an Asian family. I even visited their home country. Knowing that you have a specific country, with a language, with a culture that evolved outside of European influence HAS to have an impact on the way you see the world.

Slavery took us away from our country.

Slavery took away our language.

Slavery took away our religion.

So now, IMO, the black man in this country is little more than a very dark skinned representation of white culture. That's why I think "acting white" is so STUPID. Essentially, beyond our skin color, WE ARE WHITE!

Blacks speak English, they're mainly Christian, they DEFINITELY are capitalists. The way we organize our families, the style of dress, what we want out of life. ALL BASED ON A EUROPEAN MODEL.

There is little "African" about us.

Whatever problems blacks have in this country are ours and ours alone to solve. I don't believe in the welfare state.

But as we've all discussed before, blacks are the "canary in the coal mine" for this very perverted culture we have nowadays. Some people want to look at black problems as somehow being caused by an inherent moral or mental inferiority.

Am I race trolling??? I better stop...

Post: #17

(05-30-2013 12:34 AM)Therapsid Wrote:  Good thread. A one surprising example of a black contribution to American culture is the banjo. I always assumed the banjo was a quintessential expression of white Southern and Appalachian culture. While it has European antecedents, the banjo is basically descended from West African stringed instruments such as the kora. Yup, slaves brought over their native instrument and laid the foundation for traditional American genres like bluegrass. Yet instruments like this are not considered black today.

NO SHIT.

Post: #18

(05-30-2013 10:42 PM)BLarsen Wrote:  So now, IMO, the black man in this country is little more than a very dark skinned representation of white culture. That's why I think "acting white" is so STUPID. Essentially, beyond our skin color, WE ARE WHITE!

Reminds me of a Russell Peters standup where he talks about living in Canada and identifying as an Indian, until he finally visits India, and once he gets off the plane and smells the place instantly becomes a Canadian.

Post: #19

Ha. Of course RVF already has a thread on this.

I was re-reading Ted's manifesto this morning after not looking at it in over a decade. Seems to resonate now more than it did back then.

Now that I think about it, he was my first formal introduction to "red-pill" concepts and significantly altered my world view (even dabbled in anarcho-primitivism and the works of John Zerzan for a minute before I realized it was technically correct but impractical).

Dude shouldn't have killed people, but no one can deny that his writing wasn't genius.

Quote: 66. Today people live more by virtue of what the system does FOR them
or TO them than by virtue of what they do for themselves. And what
they do for themselves is done more and more along channels laid down
by the system. Opportunities tend to be those that the system
provides, the opportunities must be exploited in accord with the rules
and regulations [13], and techniques prescribed by experts must be
followed if there is to be a chance of success.

67. Thus the power process is disrupted in our society through a
deficiency of real goals and a deficiency of autonomy in pursuit of
goals. But it is also disrupted because of those human drives that
fall into group 3: the drives that one cannot adequately satisfy no
matter how much effort one makes. One of these drives is the need for
security. Our lives depend on decisions made by other people; we have
no control over these decisions and usually we do not even know the
people who make them. ("We live in a world in which relatively few
people - maybe 500 or 1,00 - make the important decisions" - Philip B.
Heymann of Harvard Law School, quoted by Anthony Lewis, New York
Times, April 21, 1995.) Our lives depend on whether safety standards
at a nuclear power plant are properly maintained; on how much
pesticide is allowed to get into our food or how much pollution into
our air; on how skillful (or incompetent) our doctor is; whether we
lose or get a job may depend on decisions made by government
economists or corporation executives; and so forth. Most individuals
are not in a position to secure themselves against these threats to
more [than] a very limited extent. The individual's search for
security is therefore frustrated, which leads to a sense of
powerlessness.

68. It may be objected that primitive man is physically less secure
than modern man, as is shown by his shorter life expectancy; hence
modern man suffers from less, not more than the amount of insecurity
that is normal for human beings. but psychological security does not
closely correspond with physical security. What makes us FEEL secure
is not so much objective security as a sense of confidence in our
ability to take care of ourselves. Primitive man, threatened by a
fierce animal or by hunger, can fight in self-defense or travel in
search of food. He has no certainty of success in these efforts, but
he is by no means helpless against the things that threaten him. The
modern individual on the other hand is threatened by many things
against which he is helpless; nuclear accidents, carcinogens in food,
environmental pollution, war, increasing taxes, invasion of his
privacy by large organizations, nation-wide social or economic
phenomena that may disrupt his way of life.

69. It is true that primitive man is powerless against some of the
things that threaten him; disease for example. But he can accept the
risk of disease stoically. It is part of the nature of things, it is
no one's fault, unless is the fault of some imaginary, impersonal
demon. But threats to the modern individual tend to be MAN-MADE. They
are not the results of chance but are IMPOSED on him by other persons
whose decisions he, as an individual, is unable to influence.
Consequently he feels frustrated, humiliated and angry.

Post: #20

Isn't this delving into it a bit deeper than it deserves?

Inner city ghetto's dont like rock because it doesn't speak to them and its predominantly done by white people. Name as many black or asian rockers as you can.

I have been to rock clubs which play all sorts including some mainstream rap and the ratio will be 300-1 white-other race.

It is about perception and Run DMC tried to make rock and rap good when combined but I don't think it had that much of an impact.

Post: #21

Post: #22

The point about liberals wanting everyone to "act white" is incredibly true. Feminists will likely be respecting of other cultures food, dance, clothing, etc, but any cultural practices that dont conform to feminist ideology, and feminists begin sounding like christian missonaries carrying out the white mans burden to civilize the nonbelievers of the earth

Post: #23

Insanity can produce moments of clarity and inspired genius.

Post: #24

(05-30-2013 12:21 AM)BLarsen Wrote:  Who would've thought the Unabomber would give me different perspective on how I view race?

For shits and giggles I was reading the Unabomber's manifesto and came across this passage:

Quote:The leftists will reply that the
last thing they want is to make the black man into a copy of the white
man; instead, they want to preserve African American culture. But in
what does this preservation of African American culture consist? It
can hardly consist in anything more than eating black-style food,
listening to black-style music, wearing black-style clothing and going
to a black-style church or mosque. In other words, it can express
itself only in superficial matters. In all ESSENTIAL respects more
leftists of the oversocialized type want to make the black man conform
to white, middle-class ideals.

Officially on the record, I'm black and grew up in Oakland in the 1980s. At least before we hightailed it for the suburbs.

At work today I was jamming out to The Isley Brother's "Who's That Lady?" (video below) and I thought how I wouldn't be caught dead listening to anything with a guitar when I was growing up.

Because guitars and rock music were something "other people" did.

Because "real" black people listened to rap.

Because we were so all deathly afraid and hyper vigilant about not "acting white."

Looking back that whole attitude has to be one of the DUMBEST mindsets to INFECT our community at the time.

Especially considering the black influence on the musical landscape in the United States. Jazz, Blues, R&B, Rock & Roll. And then in the 80s, two generations after our forefathers helped create the art form we then decide that in order to assert our "true" blackness that we must REJECT it wholesale?

I feel cheated and duped out of my cultural heritage.

Instead of a new generation of rockers being bred in the inner cities, we now get... Lil' Wayne??? Wiz Khalifa???

And what about the mindset that in order to assert who YOU ARE that you must define yourself IN OPPOSITION to someone else. Looking back I think this is a ghetto mindset. I certainly didn't grow up in the ghetto, but went to school with those that did. Essentially I think the attitude is, "You don't like us? You think we're pieces of shit? Ok, we don't like you!"

And everything the ghetto mindsetters associate with the dominant group will become stigmatized. Thus, rejecting OUR OWN CULTURAL HERITAGE instead of celebrating it.

Ridiculous.

Enjoy some good music.

Interesting post. I can get where you're coming from and still listen to some of the Oakland music from the old days (Tony Toni Tone). But regarding guitar, it's ironic African-Americans don't see it as a source of pride because they're the ones that made it an iconic instrument.

In 20th century America, blacks invented musical forms, then immediately moved onto the next thing, while whites attempted to refine what they did in any given genre for the next 50 years.

So while the guitar is now considered a white thing, it was actually blacks who gave it its voice. That started with rural and electric blues, which blacks were pioneering circa 1930-1955 while mainstream white music was big band swing and middle of the road (which grew out of black jazz, but I digress).

B.B. King and Muddy Waters were probably the most influential blues guitarists. But then came rock, which started as a progression from brassy jump blues and old R&B, but evolved into guitar music.

Virtually all rock guitar as we know it was derived from the riffs and guitar rhythms invented by a black man, Chuck Berry. He built some of his style on blues players, but came up with his riffs trying to adapt to guitar the horn parts big band leader Louis Jordan was doing.

The saxophone was the primary solo instrument in rock before Berry came along. Piano drove the rhythm. Berry changed that because he redefined what the instrument was all about. He made it the heart of rock's sound, not just a vehicle for soloing in the margins. (My dad grew up in NYC in this and played guitar, so a lot of my info is first-hand.)

When it comes to rock guitar you could loosely chart its rise to power as: Berry > Buddy Holly and Eddie Cochran > surf music > Beatles > Stones > All rock as we know it.

Blacks musicians left the guitar behind en masse around 1962 in favor of soul music. Rock guitar had sort of stagnated by 1965-66, although a few UK guitarists were pushing boundaries (Jeff Beck, Eric Clapton). That's when Jimi Hendrix came along and put his definitive stamp on guitar, redefining what it could do not just in rock but in jazz and blues. What Hendrix did in three years influenced virtually all seventies rock, from Zep to Rush to Humble Pie and probably most rock after that too.

During this period, black American music could loosely be charted as follows: do wop > rock'n'roll > soul > Progressive R&B (i.e. Sly Stone, later Temptations) > funk > rap.

So the guitar became a white instrument because blacks just found new ways to make music. Several authors have argued that one of the reasons black music moved on so quickly is that once whites took to it, it became cliched to black musicians, who needed to find something cooler.

The Isley Bros. song you posted features their younger brother Ernie Isley on guitar. He apparently learned some techniques from Hendrix and their blend of R&B grooves with blazing rock leads was fantastic. The Red Hot Chili Peppers and a few others took their cue from it but never bettered it. Their cover of "Summer Breeze" is has an Ernie guitar solo that transforms a wimpy '70s ballad into something absolutely transcendent.

Post: #25

I find it a great tragedy that in three or four generations, black Americans have gone from producing jazz and blues to hip hop. I know that back in the day, a lot of jazz and blues musicians found themselves in trouble with the law for drugs, assault, and even murder, but they were still producing incredibly cerebral music. People talk about the wittiness of rap lyrics, but musically, it's for a three year old, especially in light of what came before it.

Recently, I've been watching quite a few Wynton Marsalis and Trombone Shorty videos on Youtube. Both are immensely talented musicians, surrounded by other immensely talented musicians. Yet their audiences always seem to be overwhelmingly white. I'm curious to what extent blacks listen to their music in places such as New Orleans. Obviously some do or that city wouldn't continue to produce newer generations of musicians, yet I wonder how many blacks are into such music even in that city. I suspect that people like Wynton Marsalis and Trombone Shorty are even better known in Europe than amongst black Americans. Something is surely wrong with that.