Post: #1

Everyone on here knows you have to escalate sexually - at least I hope so. It's one of the cardinal rules that every pickup book and guru talks about. Yet, for many guys, including myself, it's difficult to do WHEN you are not getting any obvious IOIs from a girl. But I want to give you a specific example of how this can actually create Interest in a woman and thus create a feedback loop that you can then build upon.

Last night I met two European women having a drink on the beach and ended up joining them at their table. Initially I didn't think the one I was talking to the most was interested in me. Her English was not that good and she was sort of shy. If anyone was looking they would probably say she was being polite but there was nothing in her behavior that I could say was sexual or that she was giving any IOIs. But since I was sitting right next to her I just started to touch her without really thinking about it - because it's what I do. At first, probably 5 - 10 mins, I didn't feel any kind of reaction from her BUT neither did I get a negative vibe. She was allowing me to caress her leg, put my arm around her shoulders, touch her back, hands etc. But that's all she was doing - allowing, she wasn't responding. Then at some point I noticed a change in her behavior, around the 10 min mark. She was leaning in my direction a little bit. She had shifted her body just a little to face me more when talking. She was a bit more excited. Finally I was getting some feedback and IOIs. And as I did, I naturally became more excited too. Nothing turns me on more than a woman getting excited.

The point is: had you asked me at the beginning if she was interested in me I would have said No, and certainly not sexually. There was nothing in her behavior, and I'm very good at picking this stuff up, that would have lead me to believe this. And THIS is what stops a lot of guys from escalating sexually - they feel they need some IOIs or green light to proceed. But this example shows that many times you have to START and stroke the fire AND you have to keep going in the face of NO response. At least give it 15 mins or so. As long as she is still there and is not pushing you away, keep escalating. And suddenly you may find you have a hot babe in your hands giving you some serious IOIs.

PS You also don't need to isolate to escalate sexually. All of this was happening in front of her friend who was sitting right there across from her.

Post: #2

In my experience recently, I escalate hard with temporary subconscious pauses. If she is there with me still it's an IOI.

Most of my game at the moment is at the club/dance floor. I escalate by talking to them by pulling the back of her neck towards me and speaking into their ear, by having my hand on the small of her back and pulling her towards me, by picking her up and spinning her in the air etc.

If she is still there after all this, a makeout/kiss is almost always successful.

Post: #3

There is no meaningless touching.

What you were doing was the second stage of kino escalation- friendly touching.

This is something you do after you've established social touching, and before you advance to romantic touch, and finally sexual touching.

You have to get green lights to go up the ladder. It's like the panama canal

From a well-known game manual:

Social Touch is the kind of touch that would be socially appropriate if the person you are touching is a complete stranger.

Generally, this kind of touch is on the elbow, shoulder, or hands. Common examples of social touch include:
• Physically demonstrative handshakes
• Touching someone’s arm or shoulder when you are making a point, showing a person something, or getting his or her attention
• High-fives


Friendly Touch implies that you and the person you are touching are more than strangers. However, it doesn’t necessarily imply romantic or sexual interest. For example:

• Your arm around someone briefly • Touch on the back
• Touch on the legs (in a seated position) but not the upper or inner thighs
• Fixing someone’s hair
• Extended touching of someone’s hands (Not holding hands – rather, the sort of hand touching if you were reading some one’s palm)
• Holding her hand with an excuse (e.g., “come with me”)
• Any kind of play fighting • Hugs or “French-style” cheek kisses • Role-playing touching

Romantic touch is something that implies a connection beyond the “just friends” level. But don’t assume anything. Until you’ve kissed her, she still has plausible deniability. She can be enjoying the feeling of Romantic Touch, enjoying the flirting, enjoying the sexual tension, and have absolutely no intention of proceeding further.
Examples of Romantic Touch include:

• Massages
• Stroking her hair
• Her sitting on your lap
• Holding hands
• Etc. (Note that Romantic Touch is not explicitly sexual.)
Kissing comes at the very end of Romantic Touch – and that’s where plausible deniability ends.

Sexual touch is the end zone of the physical mod- el. It includes anything past kissing.

Post: #4

Nomad77 and Soup are basically carrying the game forum at this point, good post guys.

Post: #5

Nice post. This can be a major sticking point for me. I get discouraged quickly if a girl isn't responding neutrally to my kino. Maybe I am just giving up too soon and I should strong-arm it a bit. Women are malleable and will sometimes match your state if you get them comfortable. This post was a great reminder.

Post: #6

In my mind, there are 2 major time barriers to any female-male cold interaction- 2mins and 10 mins. If you pass the 2 min, just continue and tread lightly (add some jabs and punts in).

If you pass the 10 min mark, its time to start amping it up. Its probably as WIA said "Neurons on blast". Blast away.

Post: #7

(05-20-2013 12:42 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  Nice post. This can be a major sticking point for me. I get discouraged quickly if a girl isn't responding neutrally to my kino. Maybe I am just giving up too soon and I should strong-arm it a bit. Women are malleable and will sometimes match your state if you get them comfortable. This post was a great reminder.

Thanks. I am the same way. I feed off of a woman's response. I don't even want to think of the number of bangs I have lost because of this. And even though I know this, I still allow it to affect me. I have to always make a conscious effort to keep pushing it when the girl is just neutral as you say. I think two things are at play here: one, girls take longer to warm up than we do and two, they also take longer to decide how they feel about you. In that time they are just going to be neutral because they basically haven't decided how they feel as yet.

Also feelings are contagious. Ever notice how you feel better around a happy person? When you demonstrate your sexual desire to a woman she begins to feel sexual too - she doesn't have a choice as long as she doesn't find you repulsive. And if she did, she wouldn't still be there would she?

Post: #8

(05-20-2013 12:35 AM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  Nomad77 and Soup are basically carrying the game forum at this point, good post guys.

Thanks but I think they are a lot of guys on here that have contributed way more than me and continue to do so. I just happen to focus on certain specific topics which I think are more relevant to the average guy out there.

Post: #9

On a side note. She was a hot, slim, MILF. The older European women are coming here and realizing they have much better bodies than the average American girl. I met a lot of girls that night and she easily had one of the best bodies. If you are into slim women, like I am, then Europe is one of the few places still producing them these days. Actually the older European women are slimmer than the younger ones these days.

BUT you have to work MILFs a little more because they usually have a lower self-image than a younger girl. In their mind, they are not a hot young girl anymore even though body wise they look better than a lot of young girls. She was much slimmer than her younger sister for example.

This is exactly how she was dressed too. So her legs were bare when I was touching them, makes a big difference - skin on skin contact.

Post: #10

Building off of the escalation point, I met a black lizard on the beach on Saturday. I was already tired as I had been out till 6:00am the night before and then was out again around 5pm the following day for an event at the convention centre.

However, she interested me and she had a nice phatty so my interest was there.

I was talking to her and I placed my hand on her lap as I asked her questions. As is the norm, I get no IOIs out here unless she is with a man or not my type.

She removed my hand after 20 seconds and placed it back on the table and looked at me in the eye. I looked back indifferently and asked her if we can kick it back at her room that night (she was leaving the next day).

She said to do what, I said to give her a Euro massage.

She declined.

To build on what the Nomad says, you gotta try to know. Out here, guessing games or collecting numbers have a zero return. And if your logistics are fcuked, it makes even more sense that you drive the escalation up.

Personally, I am still working on it as I am not the touchy feely type of cat.

Post: #11

(05-20-2013 01:01 AM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

(05-20-2013 12:42 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  Nice post. This can be a major sticking point for me. I get discouraged quickly if a girl isn't responding neutrally to my kino. Maybe I am just giving up too soon and I should strong-arm it a bit. Women are malleable and will sometimes match your state if you get them comfortable. This post was a great reminder.

Thanks. I am the same way. I feed off of a woman's response. I don't even want to think of the number of bangs I have lost because of this. And even though I know this, I still allow it to affect me. I have to always make a conscious effort to keep pushing it when the girl is just neutral as you say. I think two things are at play here: one, girls take longer to warm up than we do and two, they also take longer to decide how they feel about you. In that time they are just going to be neutral because they basically haven't decided how they feel as yet.

Also feelings are contagious. Ever notice how you feel better around a happy person? When you demonstrate your sexual desire to a woman she begins to feel sexual too - she doesn't have a choice as long as she doesn't find you repulsive. And if she did, she wouldn't still be there would she?

Good stuff man. This is the type of deep-level insight that brings me back to forum time after time. I'm sure I've lost out on plenty of opportunities for not being aggressive enough too. Gunwitch's whole strategy in one line was "make the ho say no". Just plowing through her indifference until she ejects. While I could never be as caveman as he is(nor would I want to be), that kind of aggressiveness is something I need to incorporate more into my personality.

Post: #12

Thanks. I actually did an experiment with the Gunwitch method:

/thread-20010-...#pid356563

You can and should work within your own comfort limits. If you are uncomfortable with something the woman will pick up on this and it will also make her feel uncomfortable. Just because something works for someone doesn't mean it will work for you or me. Regardless of what these "guru" say our personality is a huge factor in the effectiveness of any personal interaction.

Post: #13

what's up with this weird sleazy touching thing? like sitting next to her and placing your hand on her thighs and keeping it there... or standing next to her and putting hand on her lower back where it just sits there... like what this is supposed to accomplish? looks like a guy who wants to stamp her with his fingerprints

instead..

give her reasons to touch her so she can rationalize and feel comfortable. because you prepare her what's coming you can quickly see how open she is to it. FRAME the touch right. then make a move and back off. amp it bit with time. it's fluid fun smooth spontaneous. in & out. there's rhythm to it. if she declines for example your intro then it's still fine cause at least you didn't make uncomfortable. but most of the time she can't really front cause all she's thinking is "oh he's teaching me massage now it's ok". it's justified but at the same time she feels the sensation of physical contact. it's much better than playing physical chess with a girl by trying some thing out of the blue and watching how it goes.

for example..

- you comment how tall she is and you grab her hand and pull her in very close to you to measure how tall she actually is. voila here's your "purpose" she can justify getting physical. you hold each others hands [very intimate]. you're standing like 10cm/4inches away from each other. only people who kiss stand so close. you can also put hand on her shoulders to "correct" her posture. and then say "ok you're almost perfect" and physically let go and push back. this height reason works every time.

- tell her she smells nice and get really close to her neck touching her face with your nose. you go in smell smell smell and back off.

- tell her she's your best friend from now and go for a hug. make this hug funny. then back off.

- more subtle one can be something like commenting her skin or well groomed hands like "you know what you skin seems so nice and soft let me check" and you take her hand and caress it gently. it's very sexy. but still, there is so called purpose behind it.

- [from this saturday] i'm dancing with a chick in a bar but no touching just teasing. and i tell her "oh shit you don't what to know what she's doing [her friend with my friend she can't see]. and she's like "haha i probably don't really want to know" and i say "ok i'll just show you what they doing" and i place my hands over her shoulders hips ass squeeze it everything, all of it basically out of nowhere [there was no touch between us until this point] and it was fine cause i gave her reason to latch onto and justify my touch. not to mention that i made up what her friend was doing

- reach out your hand for her to grab and pull her in to do a little ball room dance. it's fun silly appropriate socially accepted [even i'm just random guy having random girl glued to me in seconds.. again, massive rationalization, it's ok cause we "dance" gracefully]. then spin her once then let go but hold her one hand and talk like that.

- find one chair / bar stool tell her "let's sit down" take her hand and sit her on your lap. tell her "it's fine you're light". she might be like is it ok? but you distract her from hesitating and give her new reason [weight].

- introducing massage topics and trying some for fun is always great way to get some touching going on.

- when you reapproach you can say loud "hey come here!" and reach out your hand [on shoulders level] so that as she's coming over she sees you're going to put your arm around her. you do it and ask "where have you been...?" talk for few moments and let go.

- any kind of story that is relevant to physical contact is great excuse to touch. like talking about sensitive parts of body and showing her [by touching] etc. just remember to not have this weird horny look on your face when you touch her. she might test you on this "don't you get too comfortable?" so gotta own your bullshit 100% "what? i'm just showing you xyz, if you're not ok with it just tell me " and try to really mean that you wanted to show her this or that and keep it lighthearted. if you say it with a matter of fact manner she will buy it.

- poking her stomach is funny and teasing her that belly buttons is your fetish so she better not show you if she has one

- on approach point at her come up reach out your hand ut hand on shoulder to move her a little towards you say something and let go

plowing physically and aggressively / weird lingering hand on her body / waiting for IOIs / kino ladders.. forget it.

Post: #14

Thanks for breaking it down XXL. I am sure this will be helpful to a lot of guys.

Post: #15

(05-19-2013 08:37 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:  Everyone on here knows you have to escalate sexually - at least I hope so. It's one of the cardinal rules that every pickup book and guru talks about. Yet, for many guys, including myself, it's difficult to do WHEN you are not getting any obvious IOIs from a girl. But I want to give you a specific example of how this can actually create Interest in a woman and thus create a feedback loop that you can then build upon.

Last night I met two European women having a drink on the beach and ended up joining them at their table. Initially I didn't think the one I was talking to the most was interested in me. Her English was not that good and she was sort of shy. If anyone was looking they would probably say she was being polite but there was nothing in her behavior that I could say was sexual or that she was giving any IOIs. But since I was sitting right next to her I just started to touch her without really thinking about it - because it's what I do. At first, probably 5 - 10 mins, I didn't feel any kind of reaction from her BUT neither did I get a negative vibe. She was allowing me to caress her leg, put my arm around her shoulders, touch her back, hands etc. But that's all she was doing - allowing, she wasn't responding. Then at some point I noticed a change in her behavior, around the 10 min mark. She was leaning in my direction a little bit. She had shifted her body just a little to face me more when talking. She was a bit more excited. Finally I was getting some feedback and IOIs. And as I did, I naturally became more excited too. Nothing turns me on more than a woman getting excited.

The point is: had you asked me at the beginning if she was interested in me I would have said No, and certainly not sexually. There was nothing in her behavior, and I'm very good at picking this stuff up, that would have lead me to believe this. And THIS is what stops a lot of guys from escalating sexually - they feel they need some IOIs or green light to proceed. But this example shows that many times you have to START and stroke the fire AND you have to keep going in the face of NO response. At least give it 15 mins or so. As long as she is still there and is not pushing you away, keep escalating. And suddenly you may find you have a hot babe in your hands giving you some serious IOIs.

PS You also don't need to isolate to escalate sexually. All of this was happening in front of her friend who was sitting right there across from her.

Man you just helped me out big time. I just posted this in the getting the bitch shield during cold approach. And I let the chick's bad attitude and little response stop me from even attempting to get her number. Usually I don't let it happen, but it did today. And reading you situation just helped me get my mind back in the player mode it's supposed to. I let my emotions get the best of me before I reached my end goal which was to try and get this chick's number. I should have attempted to get her number and if fail then let her know she had a bad attitude. I did the opposite, I told her she had a bad attitude before I attempted to get the number. Like you said sometimes you gotta keep going even with no reciprocal response.

Post: #16

Thanks but in general you shouldn't try to get a girl's phone number until you have built some rapport/comfort with her. You want to leave her with good memories of you and better ones to come. If she's being bitchy you have to get her to calm down, win her over. As long as she doesn't leave, keep talking but stay cool, getting confrontational with her won't help.

Post: #17

(05-20-2013 06:48 AM)XXL Wrote:  what's up with this weird sleazy touching thing? like sitting next to her and placing your hand on her thighs and keeping it there... or standing next to her and putting hand on her lower back where it just sits there... like what this is supposed to accomplish? looks like a guy who wants to stamp her with his fingerprints

instead..

give her reasons to touch her so she can rationalize and feel comfortable. because you prepare her what's coming you can quickly see how open she is to it. FRAME the touch right. then make a move and back off. amp it bit with time. it's fluid fun smooth spontaneous. in & out. there's rhythm to it. if she declines for example your intro then it's still fine cause at least you didn't make uncomfortable. but most of the time she can't really front cause all she's thinking is "oh he's teaching me massage now it's ok". it's justified but at the same time she feels the sensation of physical contact. it's much better than playing physical chess with a girl by trying some thing out of the blue and watching how it goes.

for example..

- you comment how tall she is and you grab her hand and pull her in very close to you to measure how tall she actually is. voila here's your "purpose" she can justify getting physical. you hold each others hands [very intimate]. you're standing like 10cm/4inches away from each other. only people who kiss stand so close. you can also put hand on her shoulders to "correct" her posture. and then say "ok you're almost perfect" and physically let go and push back. this height reason works every time.

- tell her she smells nice and get really close to her neck touching her face with your nose. you go in smell smell smell and back off.

- tell her she's your best friend from now and go for a hug. make this hug funny. then back off.

- more subtle one can be something like commenting her skin or well groomed hands like "you know what you skin seems so nice and soft let me check" and you take her hand and caress it gently. it's very sexy. but still, there is so called purpose behind it.

- [from this saturday] i'm dancing with a chick in a bar but no touching just teasing. and i tell her "oh shit you don't what to know what she's doing [her friend with my friend she can't see]. and she's like "haha i probably don't really want to know" and i say "ok i'll just show you what they doing" and i place my hands over her shoulders hips ass squeeze it everything, all of it basically out of nowhere [there was no touch between us until this point] and it was fine cause i gave her reason to latch onto and justify my touch. not to mention that i made up what her friend was doing

- reach out your hand for her to grab and pull her in to do a little ball room dance. it's fun silly appropriate socially accepted [even i'm just random guy having random girl glued to me in seconds.. again, massive rationalization, it's ok cause we "dance" gracefully]. then spin her once then let go but hold her one hand and talk like that.

- find one chair / bar stool tell her "let's sit down" take her hand and sit her on your lap. tell her "it's fine you're light". she might be like is it ok? but you distract her from hesitating and give her new reason [weight].

- introducing massage topics and trying some for fun is always great way to get some touching going on.

- when you reapproach you can say loud "hey come here!" and reach out your hand [on shoulders level] so that as she's coming over she sees you're going to put your arm around her. you do it and ask "where have you been...?" talk for few moments and let go.

- any kind of story that is relevant to physical contact is great excuse to touch. like talking about sensitive parts of body and showing her [by touching] etc. just remember to not have this weird horny look on your face when you touch her. she might test you on this "don't you get too comfortable?" so gotta own your bullshit 100% "what? i'm just showing you xyz, if you're not ok with it just tell me " and try to really mean that you wanted to show her this or that and keep it lighthearted. if you say it with a matter of fact manner she will buy it.

- poking her stomach is funny and teasing her that belly buttons is your fetish so she better not show you if she has one

- on approach point at her come up reach out your hand ut hand on shoulder to move her a little towards you say something and let go

plowing physically and aggressively / weird lingering hand on her body / waiting for IOIs / kino ladders.. forget it.

Good stuff. Do you guys have more ideas for things like this? I'll share one I did last year that led to sex.

We were sitting on my couch next to each other watch something on TV. At this point not much was going on. I went to the bathroom and came back. She had her foot on my coffee table. I put my foot on the table against her's and commented at how small her foot is compared to mine and commented on how cute her lady feet are. Then I asked if she has ticklish feet. Which she said yes of course. If you ask to tickle them or try to, she'll likely resist. Instead, I then told her that being ticklish is completely in her head and there's no such thing. She seemed intrigued. I then explained that if I massage your feet, that doesn't seem ticklish because you're not thinking about being tickled. I went to show her and took off her sock and started massaging the her bottom of her feet, then I told her to now imagine she's being tickled and I did the same motions on her feet and she started bursting out laughing and cringing from it. Then I told her to once again imagine it as a massage and it stopped feeling ticklish. She was fascinated. After that, I moved my hands to her waste to see if she was ticklish there and then the rest was history.

I just sort of made that one up on the spot but what I like about it is that it combines kino with a psychological framing in a way that's interesting. You are controlling her mind and making her react to things just by the way you frame it(teaching her that ticklishness is mental), and then demonstrating it. Once you move the tickling up to her waist and you are isolated, she's going to get turned on and you are now pretty much in a sexual state and ready for a makeout.

Let's keep sharing any kino hacks you can think of. These are all tools to keep up our sleeves.

Post: #18

it was fine cause you gave her the context to do it. on the other hand if you just sat closer to her in silence and then start touching her feet just out of the blue she'd be like "wtf you doing?". because of no context.

it's like if you tell a girl "hey come here" and you grab her hand or shoulder to pull her in closer to you it's fine cause you use physical contact to bring her over [purpose]. meanwhile if you came up to her and suddenly touched her arm or took her hand just looking at her it'd be weird.

or a girl punches you playfully cause you said something funny about her you grab her hand and say "you got such cold hands.. perfect for my neck today" and place her hands on your neck in pain. now, she might go with or not but she will never ever say it's creepy or wtf you doing cause your action is within some context so it's ok. i don't really see no other "tactics" than...

give excuse for a touch. do it spontaneously. short and sweet. let go. amp up with time. wash rinse repeat.

that's for getting her comfortable with you physically. when you both really click then of course you can just place your hands all over her for no reason and it's fine cause it's like she's yours now.

Post: #19

ensin englannin kielen kurssille! I plan to come back in three weeks.

(That's Finnish for: first an English course.)

Post: #20

(05-22-2013 04:20 AM)XXL Wrote:  when you both really click then of course you can just place your hands all over her for no reason and it's fine cause it's like she's yours now.

This is usually my MO. I always assume the right of touch - Touch first ask later.

Post: #21

(05-20-2013 01:01 AM)Nomad77 Wrote:  Also feelings are contagious. Ever notice how you feel better around a happy person? When you demonstrate your sexual desire to a woman she begins to feel sexual too - she doesn't have a choice as long as she doesn't find you repulsive. And if she did, she wouldn't still be there would she?

I want to take this opportunity to point out how this is a separate, different, and distinct strategy from playing it aloof.

This is about a dominant masculine heat, that can even come across as an OVERWHELMING interest in the woman.

And it is not location dependent, or culture dependent. It's a cross cultural constant that has nothing to do with aloof game.

Post: #22

Thanks for expanding on this. You are 100% correct this is something that cuts across all cultural, race, age, socioeconomic lines. You are operating on the primitive/reptilian male/female level here.

Post: #23

(05-21-2013 05:34 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:  Thanks but in general you shouldn't try to get a girl's phone number until you have built some rapport/comfort with her. You want to leave her with good memories of you and better ones to come. If she's being bitchy you have to get her to calm down, win her over. As long as she doesn't leave, keep talking but stay cool, getting confrontational with her won't help.

Ideally you want them to ask for yours. Then when they do you tell them to send you a text so you have their number too.

To me, if she isn't asking for mine (or forcing hers upon me) then I feel like I have more work to put in.