Post: #1

Prefix: I'm looking for some advice here. Feel free to offer any and all thoughts. If someone's willing and interested to offer further help besides posts, I'd love to hear some PM's.

Background: 21 years old, taking classes in comp sci at a state university. 2 years minimum left for a degree.

As I finished out my semester here, there's a few conclusions I've realized. I'm learning very little in my classes. There's information that is absorbed, but very little is actually learning. I do coding in LISP - my teacher was awful, unhelpful. Projects are relatively pointless, it's intended to be a class on paradigms and I learned how to write code to solve a few puzzles and to link in an HTML page.

I take an assembly language/computer systems class. Never touched assembly language, did basic C code for embedded systems. Mainly consisted of following the guidelines for the project just step by step. Code was easy, looking up a few functions in the DriverLib manuals, etc. Weird issues cropped up, of course, but manageable.

I've finished the semester, I've not had a normal one, I got rigged up at the beginning because I was doing a transfer of schools and it was nearly 3 weeks before I was actually enrolled in classes. Got shafted on homework assignments for that period, and in the attempt to catch up, overall dropped me a good letter grade for each class.

At this point, I have definitive considerations towards walking away. I learn much faster on my own. I've dealt with large projects before - I worked with Skyrim modding, and wrote large sections of a java library for it along with a good friend of mine, along with my own programs to utilize the library with hundreds of thousands of users. I've got the brains, I've got friends that are willing to work with me, I know venture capitalists and have close friends with relatively significant amounts of money. I have a drive to achieve what I want - which at the moment, is not correlating to my classes. I have no drive there, and I don't feel like I'm getting anywhere with it. I have good social skills, in general.

So here's my questions;

• What would the impacts be of finishing a degree, versus not finishing a degree? Consider this from the standpoint of me starting up my own company either way. Would it be better to finish the degree and pay the money, or can I benefit more by passing on those two years, and starting now?
• In creating a product, a piece of software, how do I approach companies with this? Say I have an idea that could be used - how do I go about broaching this idea? Do I design a functional version first, then contact them? How does this process work?
• How effective are advertising methods of revenue? In the context of, say, an application for smartphones.
• What are methods to market and advertise a product?
• How feasible is the thought of branching out at 21? Am I going to run into issues with people presuming I should be getting a degree, or presuming that I need to age before dealing with business?
  

I had a few more questions similar to the first two in specificity, but they are escaping me at the moment. I'll be approaching a few people I know with these thoughts around here, but it seems like a good community for honest advice so I decided to start here as I work this evening and tomorrow and will not be able to talk to someone in person.

Most especially, if anyone with experience would be interested in a skype call/discussion, that would be fantastic.

Post: #2

If you can code, why do you need a degree?

You have a location independent skill where you can live anywhere in the world and make money.

That's if you can code. If you're just taking classes and can't walk the walk then why are you in CS? Try psych or some other social science.

If you can code, get a summer job. If you can see making good money, don't go back to school.

Consider moving out of the US to a low cost of living place with good weather and good women.

Post: #3

I've read a few case studies of people in the programming industry who simply programmed something that showed off their skillz and then used that program as part of their networking strategy.

Ken Silverman is a great example of that. He programmed his own game while still in high school and was hired as a programmer while he was still busy with his first year and first semester at university.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Silverman

Post: #4

This is a bit of a long post, just to point out. I currently am in this field so a few pointers and responses to your questions below, and I have been working with programming and application development for around 10 years now.

Most of my response is geared towards going on your own, but if a job seems more apt for you after analysing the suggestions and advice you get then there is a different set of things you can do to stand out while still continuing university.

(05-19-2013 02:07 PM)Plutoman Wrote:  Prefix: I'm looking for some advice here. Feel free to offer any and all thoughts. If someone's willing and interested to offer further help besides posts, I'd love to hear some PM's.

Background: 21 years old, taking classes in comp sci at a state university. 2 years minimum left for a degree.

As I finished out my semester here, there's a few conclusions I've realized. I'm learning very little in my classes. There's information that is absorbed, but very little is actually learning. I do coding in LISP - my teacher was awful, unhelpful. Projects are relatively pointless, it's intended to be a class on paradigms and I learned how to write code to solve a few puzzles and to link in an HTML page.

I take an assembly language/computer systems class. Never touched assembly language, did basic C code for embedded systems. Mainly consisted of following the guidelines for the project just step by step. Code was easy, looking up a few functions in the DriverLib manuals, etc. Weird issues cropped up, of course, but manageable.

I've finished the semester, I've not had a normal one, I got rigged up at the beginning because I was doing a transfer of schools and it was nearly 3 weeks before I was actually enrolled in classes. Got shafted on homework assignments for that period, and in the attempt to catch up, overall dropped me a good letter grade for each class.

At this point, I have definitive considerations towards walking away. I learn much faster on my own. I've dealt with large projects before - I worked with Skyrim modding, and wrote large sections of a java library for it along with a good friend of mine, along with my own programs to utilize the library with hundreds of thousands of users. I've got the brains, I've got friends that are willing to work with me, I know venture capitalists and have close friends with relatively significant amounts of money. I have a drive to achieve what I want - which at the moment, is not correlating to my classes. I have no drive there, and I don't feel like I'm getting anywhere with it. I have good social skills, in general.

Chances are that whatever you did, are doing or will do in university as part of computer science will not be very useful in practical terms. The only thing it will help toward is you gaining a good understanding of the principles, logic and foundation but with little practical usage at the end. This is important so don't get me wrong, but it will not ensure that you benefit from it by itself.

Case in point being myself. I didn't get a computer science degree yet have been working in the field for about 10 years now, and programming for much longer. All of my programming is self taught, based on the foundation stuff from high school. and one or two basic courses in university as electives.

(05-19-2013 02:07 PM)Plutoman Wrote:  So here's my questions;
What would the impacts be of finishing a degree, versus not finishing a degree? Consider this from the standpoint of me starting up my own company either way. Would it be better to finish the degree and pay the money, or can I benefit more by passing on those two years, and starting now?

This entirely depends on your long term plan. If you are absolutely sure that in the long run you want to go on your own without a shadow of doubt (this is very important, I have explained further later in the post), then the two further years will not add much to you. But if you are just exploring going on your own then I suggest that you finish the two years since it gives you a contingency in terms of ease of getting a job.

You could get a job without finishing the degree, but it will be relatively harder.

(05-19-2013 02:07 PM)Plutoman Wrote:  In creating a product, a piece of software, how do I approach companies with this? Say I have an idea that could be used - how do I go about broaching this idea? Do I design a functional version first, then contact them? How does this process work?

Essentially yes. There are millions of people trying the same thing every minute nowadays, so you need much more than just an idea to get anywhere in the current scenario.

You do not need to have a fully functional version of the product at the get go, but you will definitely need at least a prototype version which would pique the interest of others, be it a company, investor, funding angel or just partners/employees.

The process is quite straightforward, its all in the execution - Idea -> Prototype -> Test/Garner Interest -> Build -> Deploy

The idea step is very crucial, you need to be very clear in so far as to what your product is, why there is a need for it, what will it accomplish that something that already exists doesn't or if none exist why it is required.

Once you have nailed this down, you need to create a minimalistic plan for starters on how you are going to go about with the execution (a business plan, if you will, although I am not too fond of the term itself). You need to counter for time frames, schedules, finances, revenue and exit strategy.

Then comes the brunt of the work, build a prototype version of the product, get people to use it, assess their interest and feedback and then go back to working. By this stage you should be able to get a better idea of whether it will succeed or not. Be open to the possibility of it failing, and if touch wood it does, you have to either go back to the drawing board and reform your idea or move on to another idea altogether sometimes.

(05-19-2013 02:07 PM)Plutoman Wrote:  How effective are advertising methods of revenue? In the context of, say, an application for smartphones.

Effective for what? And more importantly it all depends on your application, you can get away or do with ads in a game application whereas you cannot or it doesn't help if your application is geared towards something else.

So where do the ads fit in with your idea? Is it essential or is it something you are looking at as a possible source of revenue? Will it help or hinder the users? These are important questions you need to have clear answers to.

(05-19-2013 02:07 PM)Plutoman Wrote:  What are methods to market and advertise a product?

Again depends on your product, and your ability to pay for the PR/Marketing. If you have the coin, you can go the extent of getting a bill board, or if money is an issue you list your product/application in marketplaces, blogs, etc to the lowest form of it being word of mouth. That covers the entire spectrum and everything in between so it eventually boils down to what you can afford and how effective it will be in terms of ROI.

(05-19-2013 02:07 PM)Plutoman Wrote:  How feasible is the thought of branching out at 21? Am I going to run into issues with people presuming I should be getting a degree, or presuming that I need to age before dealing with business?

Age is not necessarily a huge factor in this industry or field, but you have to have the conviction and self-belief to make others believe in you, only then will they believe in your product.

No one is really going to ask you if you have a degree if your product is great and you execute what you set out to do. But there is a catch, if it doesn't work out as planned, be aware that it is the first thing that they will point out as a drawback, and lack of experience, so you have to make sure that you don't give them that chance.

(05-19-2013 02:07 PM)Plutoman Wrote:  I had a few more questions similar to the first two in specificity, but they are escaping me at the moment. I'll be approaching a few people I know with these thoughts around here, but it seems like a good community for honest advice so I decided to start here as I work this evening and tomorrow and will not be able to talk to someone in person.

Most especially, if anyone with experience would be interested in a skype call/discussion, that would be fantastic.

If you have any further questions or specific things, hit me up and I will chip in as much as possible.

A few general observations just to reiterate them and make sure you are aware of them:

- There are literally millions of people who think that the software/mobile/web application industry is a quick fire way to making millions and billions. This is extremely far from the truth. You need to be very realistic, if you don't make it it will have taken the brunt out of you and it can be very frustrating.

- For every product/application that gets sold for millions, there are literally 1000's that fail, and even more that never even see the day light.

- Be prepared to spend hours and hours together sitting in front of the computer, and a gruelling lifestyle when you are starting. If you have good capital this might be a bit easier as you can hire more people rather just do it as a single person or a couple of guys. But in any case, hiring too many initially is not a very good idea. A 3 or 4 person team is just about right at best, and for the initial prototype and planning stages 1 or 2 people on the same wavelength and similar ideology.

- You need to have a solid understanding of how the product will generate income or revenue and furthermore a proper exit strategy. The exit strategy more often than not dictates the direction and choices you make in terms of the product and how it grows.

- Be prepared to fail and be prepared to call it quits. If your first idea doesn't seem like it will succeed, then after giving it a shot be ready to completely drop it and move on to the next one. This is very important. If you keep pushing on a failing idea, not only will it waste your time, but it will also lower the confidence level among your supporters.

Post: #5

Well aware of potential difficulties - not looking at free millions, but more whether hoofing it without the degree can promote a stable career in the field. I'm fairly confident that I'll be successful in whatever field I branch into; I could be modest here, but I feel honesty is better when I say I know I'm more intelligent than 95% of the people in my classes alone in my field from the ease at which I grasp new topics and end up teaching them.

I have access to resources and capital - I'm very good with networking. I am very, very sure I want to go on my own. I do not want to work for a company. I am not the personality type to work under someone for years and years. I could do it for periods of time, but it is not a career to me to follow someone else's direction. I want to go my own direction, and find people interested in doing that with me (this isn't necessarily for the point of my way or the highway, but I want to have input in the topic - I'll work with a small group, we'll figure a goal, we'll accomplish it, etc).

Input on the idea stages -> business plan is useful. I'm working on that. Are there any good books you could recommend per chance? The main difficulty is understanding what specifically I need to research - what do I need to look at, take notes on, plan for. I'm very confident that if I have a good idea, then I can make it happen from the resources I have available (between close friends, mentors, capital, etc).

Questions on advertisements are specifically related to the monetization of a piece of software, and whether it would be more beneficial to pursue free products with advertisements, paid, subscription, etc. Currently, my ideas are in lists - not any single one, but a multitude, and I want to sit down with a small group, discuss them, figure out which is the most productive idea to turn into reality. Sort them into a list and provide backup options, keep a couple closely related ones that could be transitioned in any odd circumstances.

The notes on an exit strategy is a good one. That had entirely escaped my consideration, yet is an extremely important thought in the development process.

I'm sorting through my thoughts and building contacts, getting in touch with people, I will send you a PM in the next few days if you don't mind. I want to get serious with this, but I have to get the decision fleshed out through this summer, so I will be trying to work quickly. I just met a guy yesterday who is self-taught doing web design, my age, got a job right out of high school. Interesting synchronicity. Going to be talking with him, as he knows PHP/MySQL/etc that I don't know well, while I correspondingly know Java, C++, some C#, that he does not.

With that - I very much appreciate the input. Exactly the type of response I was looking for, and I appreciate the depth of the response and the questions put back to me.

Post: #6

(05-19-2013 02:07 PM)Plutoman Wrote:  Prefix: I'm looking for some advice here. Feel free to offer any and all thoughts. If someone's willing and interested to offer further help besides posts, I'd love to hear some PM's.

Background: 21 years old, taking classes in comp sci at a state university. 2 years minimum left for a degree.

As I finished out my semester here, there's a few conclusions I've realized. I'm learning very little in my classes. There's information that is absorbed, but very little is actually learning. I do coding in LISP - my teacher was awful, unhelpful. Projects are relatively pointless, it's intended to be a class on paradigms and I learned how to write code to solve a few puzzles and to link in an HTML page.

I take an assembly language/computer systems class. Never touched assembly language, did basic C code for embedded systems. Mainly consisted of following the guidelines for the project just step by step. Code was easy, looking up a few functions in the DriverLib manuals, etc. Weird issues cropped up, of course, but manageable.

You are allowed to go above and beyond the scope of class projects. Meet their requirements, then exceed them for your own development.

whatever text books and materials you have for your classes with also cite other sources. Look into those, as many will contain more advanced concepts that will help push your learning.

Showing your skills in this setting can also lead to additional benefits since your university and its professors can have connections in the industry that may help you as well. Not just technically, but with things like finding funding or getting your project some attention through their research networks or even the school media system (paper, website, etc). Schools love to promote their prize pupils.

School also offers an opportunity to experiment without as much expectation as when you are doing something to survive. Also, can't you also get huge discounts on software packages as a student? That might be another benefit to staying.

You've probably already considered this stuff, but just in case you hadn't figured I'd mention it.

Post: #7

Not my area, but how many mediocre coders can get a job w/o a degree?

Superstars seem to always do fine.
Horrible folks wash out.

People in the great middle? How well do they do w/o a silly piece of paper?

WIA

Post: #8

If you're 100% sure you want to do your own thing and are a capable self-learner then a degree is just a waste of time for you. Coding especially is something where skills trump a piece of paper all day long.

Post: #9

(05-21-2013 04:06 PM)Plutoman Wrote:  Well aware of potential difficulties - not looking at free millions, but more whether hoofing it without the degree can promote a stable career in the field. I'm fairly confident that I'll be successful in whatever field I branch into; I could be modest here, but I feel honesty is better when I say I know I'm more intelligent than 95% of the people in my classes alone in my field from the ease at which I grasp new topics and end up teaching them.

I have access to resources and capital - I'm very good with networking. I am very, very sure I want to go on my own. I do not want to work for a company. I am not the personality type to work under someone for years and years. I could do it for periods of time, but it is not a career to me to follow someone else's direction. I want to go my own direction, and find people interested in doing that with me (this isn't necessarily for the point of my way or the highway, but I want to have input in the topic - I'll work with a small group, we'll figure a goal, we'll accomplish it, etc).

If this is the case, then by all means go for it. I am in no way encouraging you to stop university or such, but the reality is that it won't really help much in any case except if you want to have a backup plan to get a 9 - 5 type of deal later.

(05-21-2013 04:06 PM)Plutoman Wrote:  Input on the idea stages -> business plan is useful. I'm working on that. Are there any good books you could recommend per chance? The main difficulty is understanding what specifically I need to research - what do I need to look at, take notes on, plan for. I'm very confident that if I have a good idea, then I can make it happen from the resources I have available (between close friends, mentors, capital, etc).

There are some books that might be helpful, I have a list somewhere, I will try and post it up.

These are some things you want to keep in mind, off the top of my mind:

- Remember that the idea by itself is neither good or bad. It is the execution that matters.

- Things to look for:

-- Viability of the idea as a product - the idea needs to be transformed in to a viable product. Viability on multiple fronts as well - financial, economical, benefits, ease of use etc. A silly example, you can power a light bulb with a potato, but it is not viable long term and in mass. You get the point?

-- Your market and target audience - This should be your biggest focus of attention. Who will you be catering to - regular users, enterprises, small businesses etc? What is your competition? How can you be better than them, if there is competition? Is it easy to break in as a new player?

-- Product offering - Would it serve you better to offer the product as a revenue making one or a service or a mix of both? There are already examples of existing products which use the different methods.

-- Past examples - Try and learn about existing products, how they went about and came to be. Look at the failed ideas or products very keenly, you can learn a lot from why they failed as much as you can learn from why something was successful.

(05-21-2013 04:06 PM)Plutoman Wrote:  Questions on advertisements are specifically related to the monetization of a piece of software, and whether it would be more beneficial to pursue free products with advertisements, paid, subscription, etc. Currently, my ideas are in lists - not any single one, but a multitude, and I want to sit down with a small group, discuss them, figure out which is the most productive idea to turn into reality. Sort them into a list and provide backup options, keep a couple closely related ones that could be transitioned in any odd circumstances.

Revenue and monetization are essentially tied in with the nature and features of your product. Will the product be SAOS, or client based? This single question will answer the path you will need to go on.

Although monetization is possible with ads, it should not be your main source of revenue. This is not always the case, but it predominantly is. It is hard to offer suggestions without knowing more about the idea or the product itself, so I will leave it at this.

Another thing you need to account for, only in the case of one time payments or client based products, is how will you overcome or combat piracy or free loaders, and deal with enforcing licensing for your product?

(05-21-2013 04:06 PM)Plutoman Wrote:  The notes on an exit strategy is a good one. That had entirely escaped my consideration, yet is an extremely important thought in the development process.

Pay close attention to this factor. A bunch of times, a good product will lose out only because there isn't a clearly defined exit strategy.

You need to be clear on how you want to go out, or if you want to go out upfront. Sometimes you can change course, but often times it is not possible or beneficial to change course mid-way.

(05-21-2013 04:06 PM)Plutoman Wrote:  I'm sorting through my thoughts and building contacts, getting in touch with people, I will send you a PM in the next few days if you don't mind. I want to get serious with this, but I have to get the decision fleshed out through this summer, so I will be trying to work quickly. I just met a guy yesterday who is self-taught doing web design, my age, got a job right out of high school. Interesting synchronicity. Going to be talking with him, as he knows PHP/MySQL/etc that I don't know well, while I correspondingly know Java, C++, some C#, that he does not.

With that - I very much appreciate the input. Exactly the type of response I was looking for, and I appreciate the depth of the response and the questions put back to me.

No worries, glad to be of help.

A quick note, focus a bit more on UI/UX as well. A good product is one which people want to use, not the one which has most features or does really complicated things.

You have to get people to want to use the product because it is easy to use, and they have fun using it and it does exactly what they want without hurdles. You could have come up with an algorithm to determine the exact numbers for the next lottery, but if a user doesn't feel at home they will rather turn to that product, which merely throws out random numbers simply because it looks nicer and is easy to use.

Another thing since you pointed programming languages, don't discount any particular language or platform simply because you don't know it or you know someone who knows something else. The platform should always be dictated by how your platform will work and what components will make it work most efficiently.

Hope this helps, if you have any further questions, don't hesitate to let me know.

Post: #10

Not really my field, though I can, and do, code at a fairly basic level.

As you may know a lot of the big software companies have certifications you can get for various software packages they sell. Microsoft, SAP (very lucrative), Oracle etc. If you need to generate income while pursuing your business goals having one of these may help. Say you get a Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer qualification. You can contract to smaller companies who can't afford the big boys who need their network seen to every now and then. MCSE's aren't very high up the earnings ladder, but if you get business you'll bring in some money at least.

Post: #11

If you learn about several industries and business models some innovative thoughts could strike you and you could write code to develop an innovative solution.

Keep your EXPOSURE high.

Post: #12

(05-21-2013 04:06 PM)Plutoman Wrote:  Well aware of potential difficulties - not looking at free millions, but more whether hoofing it without the degree can promote a stable career in the field. I'm fairly confident that I'll be successful in whatever field I branch into; I could be modest here, but I feel honesty is better when I say I know I'm more intelligent than 95% of the people in my classes alone in my field from the ease at which I grasp new topics and end up teaching them.

I have access to resources and capital - I'm very good with networking.

Feeling you have access to capital and actually seeing the people give you money can be two very, very different things.

When it's time to pony up the actual cash, suddenly there are thousands of reasons why "now is not the time."

Know the answer to "how will I pay for rent and food the first two years."

Since you want to be an entrepreneur, you may have to work some menial job like waitering, you should understand whether you're willing to do that, or have some commitment in writing before you bail on whatever is providing you with housing/food.

Post: #13

Comp sci degree is one of the very few that doesn't suck nowadays. It may be a total waste. But at the same time, you probably will never get this opportunity again. Your business you can start on the side, or later.

Post: #14

Honestly, I can't remember much of what I learned in college...I wasn't that motivated at the time because I was studying stuff that I wasn't too fond of.

Fast forward 15 years later. True, the stuff I used I can't recall, but man do you need some sort of degree when you're out in the real world. You can't get a decent job without one. No one will hire you. Even if you are starting your own company, think you are gonna be the next Bill Gates or Steve Jobs (both didn't have degrees), I'd still recommend that you get it. Bill Gates started Microsoft when he was in school at Harvard...you can also start your company while in college as well. Also, very few venture capitalists will take you seriously if you haven't shown that you had the discipline to rough it out and complete a basic undergrad degree.

Let' say your undergrad sucks. Fine. But what if you want to do a Master's where you actually learn something? Where you are able to make connections? Good Master's programs are not BS, they're actually quite focused and you do learn a lot of useful stuff.

Think of it this way: I imagine that at a state school, assuming that you're instate, the tuition isn't as high as it could be at a private school. You're also young, just 21 and have 2 more years to go before getting your degree. In the long scheme of things, that's nothing. Plus, if you're as good at programming as you say you are and your classes are easy or a joke, then you should be able to work on the side and pass your classes enough to graduate. I would recommend at least finishing the degree. You might regret it later if you don't. Good luck!

Post: #15

edit

Post: #16

Just a follow up here; after talking with quite a few mentors, talking to a few investors, organizing a team, I've got a group set up and we're starting to write code and are hashing out our contract this week. We're doing an initial project or two on our own funds before we try to go bigger, which means we are not taking money right now, but it's an option. As far as whether I can get the money, I know very well that the money is available if, but only if, I present a solid plan and some potential for gains. As long as I can do that, the money is available.

My decision came from several reasons.. The fact that, if this goes downhill, it's still experience and I can still go back another time to University. There's no reason to say I can't go back. A mentor brought up that at 21, I can fail four times and still go back with no issues. Secondly, the time investment of trying to do a business on the side while doing classes AND working part-time (I already work), is too much. It's one or the other - I pay the bills I have with my part-time work, and it's either I start business or do classes.

The most important reason is my personal drive. I have no drive towards my classes; it will be a mediocre attempt of getting by. I have a drive to make something of my life in my field, and I'm taking that, getting it organized, making it happen. I'd rather go down knowing I'm doing what I want with my life. I've always been self-taught - I was homeschooled for 10 years, I taught myself. All I'd get is the title, and it's 2 years to get a title.

I've got one major project that's started with a team of 5 including me, and a separate side project I'm starting work which will be more long-term and aimed more towards next April/May/June, while the major one will ideally be by the end of the year. It's the certification of experience.