Post: #26

(05-10-2013 05:16 AM)Mark Minter Wrote:  One of the things the T Nation site says is "fuck doctors. You be your expert. That doctor is there to assist you and do what you tell him, prescribe what you say, set up what tests you need, and work with you. He is just an air conditioner mechanic or another pizza maker and he does what you tell him to or you fire him and get one that will.

Kristian might have a medical condition that could possibly be treated, it would be stupid and even counter productive to solely rely on advice given by lay men on the internet.

Post: #27

(05-09-2013 08:15 PM)Wayout Wrote:  Been through this for many years and tried testosterone therapy. Basically it's not worth it! You get easily get testosterone prescribed and get it up into 900-1200 in about a week. See if you like it. Your body will stop naturally produce testosterone and starts producing estrogen instead. You will develop female tits if you continue using Testosterone. You will also absorb lots of it in your hair follicles and eventually start balding. Your skin will take a hit and you will look much older.
You body makes enough T. There is actually no NORMAL reading....everyone is different.
It's safe though to try it for a week or two.

What he means is, when you inject raw testosterone into your body, initially you will have more free flowing test which increases your feelings of well being.

However, your endocrine system will eventually compensate and the aromatase enzyme will start to break test down into estrogen and various other metabolites.

One of those metabolites is dyhydrotestosterone (dht). It has been known to cause hair loss.

Artificial test causes your testicules to shrink since they aren't naturally producing test anymore.

Your endocrinologist will know exactly what to do and prescribe the appropriate meds to compensate for this. You can't mess with the hormone system and not expect the lower subsystems not to catch up! All of those symptoms are easily mitigated.

Post: #28

wayout is wrong.

when you're replacing deficient hormones to normal levels you will not develop gyno.

you also will not feel a difference until 4-6 weeks.

cypionate and enanthate take time to build up in the system to reach the desired levels.

whatever bullshit doctor he had was an idiot



get yourself to a legit endocrinologist.

he will test you several times fasted in the morning to get a real reading on your test. i came in under 300 each time.

then he will tell you to try dieting and weight loss probably, but that didnt work for me as i had already been on a strict diet of 2400 kcal per day for months prior plus 6 days a week of crossfit and no body recomp at all.

my thyroid is also a little stressed, tsh at 4.5. but we havent treated that yet

he will offer you HCG or Clomid as a different protocol. some respond to that. I just wanted to go straight for the test. so he gave it to me. he also did give me hcg to use infrequently to blow my balls back up again.

yes, your balls will shrink. mine shrank about 20%.

I have chosen to do twice weekly injections to keep levels high.

it has changed everything for me.

my libido had vanished.

now i'm banging my girl three times a day just like when we first met and it has been three years plus a kid.

my energy is back. i was swimming under water before. it was horrible. i just wanted to sit on the couch. no energy at all. but yet i managed to get to the gym 6 days a week. pure force of will.

i lost focus at work

i was a moody bitch

all these things have reversed. my health is better, my outlook is better, my libido better, everything better.



all those ideas on how to boost test wont do shit. believe me, i tried everything. if your circuits are fucked up somehow, no amount of squats or anything else is going to increase Testosterone levels. IF your body is fucked. which mine is. my pituitary gland doesnt see that my T is low and doesn't up the signaling to the testes.


if you truly have low t, then I can not recommend this protocol enough.

and yes, T nation has a great board there, I have posted my case study there and gotten a lot of advice. Yes you have to be your own advocate until you find someone that knows what is up.
I had to go through two GP docs before I finally got to an Endo that knew how to treat me.

Post: #29

(05-09-2013 06:47 PM)MidniteSpecial Wrote:  

(05-09-2013 06:40 PM)reaper23 Wrote:  everything has improved. well being, mood, energy, libido.

i take 50 mg twice a week.

it took about 6 weeks for it really to even out and get my test levels up to 1000.

ambition, drive, everything is much improved.

it was as if i was walking around with a 400 lb vest on at all times, underwater.

now i'm buzzing around

How long have you been on it?

several months. it took 6 weeks

Post: #30

(05-09-2013 09:03 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  Here's a home test kit for $33 on amazon. Includes lab results.

http://www.amazon.com/Testosterone-Level...ewpoints=1

I wonder if this is as reliable as bloodwork at the lab?

forget about this

go to http://www.privatemdlabs.com

get a real dr's order and go to labcorb for a real blood test.

get the "Female Hormone Panel" costs $60

Post: #31

@reaper23

How much does it cost you per month for test cyp, etc?

Post: #32

10ML Bottle at 200mg/ML is about $75 with no insurance at CVS.

That lasts me 20 weeks.

6 month checkups I pay $40 copay.

Have the lowest level HMO that my work offers.

Post: #33

(05-10-2013 05:16 AM)Mark Minter Wrote:  I have a book for you. I don't know to get it to you but we can work something out. The book is called The Hour Between Wolf and Dog and it is all about testosterone. It focuses on Wall Street traders and explains the biology that is going in their bodies as they undergo risk, have periods of success, and face periods of loss. The form is a RAR file that decompresses to an EPUB doc. Firefox has an add on that will read it straight from the browser. I used an online RAR decompression utility and it worked fine. I am reading the book right now.

There is a tremendous relationship between mood, thoughts, risk, actions, and testosterone. The question might be a chicken or the egg one: Is the depression a function of the low T or is the depression causing the Low T. But the good thing I am finding is that both T production and personality due to T are "plastic" and both will change, your behavior, your personality, and your T level.

Send me a forum message and let me know how to get in touch with you.

I am heavily researching this topic right now and I believe it key and I mean fucking key to tons of stuff. I feel that low T in men is pervasive throughout society and it is causing problems in multiple facets of life but particularly in the relationships between men and women.

You can help us all out by making this kind of a test case. And heavily reporting your journey through this issue.

I would go to T Nation like an above poster suggested, join the forum, and post, specifically state your issue, say who you are, who we are, and then follow the guidance. That site has some of the best endocrine information around. And it has the same spirit as a manosphere forum, men sharing and helping other men.

So let me know how we can work out getting this book to you. I am reading it right now and I find it a very very interesting read. I think you need to read it so you can get the biology and endocrine workings down as a fundamental set of knowledge and then enhance that knowledge over at T nation.

The good thing is that your doctor appears very workable. One of the things the T Nation site says is "fuck doctors. You be your expert. That doctor is there to assist you and do what you tell him, prescribe what you say, set up what tests you need, and work with you. He is just an air conditioner mechanic or another pizza maker and he does what you tell him to or you fire him and get one that will.

So let me know. I would like to work with you and follow what you do with this and the results. I hope to sort of gel all of this together and release some findings to the community.

I know this is gonna sound weird. But you gotta trust me on this. On the Rooshv.com site, he had a recent post about Approach 1 Girl a Day. Read that post and adopt that habit. One approach a day, every day. After you read the book you will understand why doing to leads to higher testosterone. But make it a keystone habit, as Roosh called it, one approach every day. The act of preparing to approach, then approaching, then having some success at it will raise and elevate your testosterone.

And having success will accelerate the raising of the level. Your depression is probably caused by cortisol and testosterone kicks cortisol's ass. Even if you have to approach HB 3s at first. But success with them will cause something called the Winner Effect and leave your levels raised and this slowly affects your personality, and you carry that with you into the next approach, and this Winner's effect is noticeable and was the cause of a ton of studies among different animals where the researchers set up this like "Animal Fight Club". They noted that the winner of one competition statistically won the next competition. And this began to build, as he won, he kept winning, and the level of the class he was beating increased. They measure T levels after the fights and detected a spike in T level that was produced about 45 minutes are the end of the competition. And this level enhanced his ability to think, for muscle growth, and his confidence.

So start approaching now. Trust me on this. Go find that Roosh post and read it. He lists about 10 positive affects in his life from only two keystone habits, approaching 1 girl a day and lifting heavy weight. He is a perfect example of the plasticity of personality and how social competence is hormone driven and will change for the better or the worse as a function of experience and hormone level.

You can beat this. You will beat it. This is going to change your life and you are lucky as hell to find out about this at 21. So help me to help others.

thanks! I would read the book! could u send my in private message from some upload website service?

I would be glad If you share with me your information about T-nation,I like to read all the things related to this stuff.

I have told my gym coach about this problem and in conjunction with the doctor we will plan a TRT focussed on this and also bodybuilding with aesthetics purposes(the doctor doesn't approve the use of wins and trembolone,but it's my responsability).

I will use testosterone cypionate , trembolone enhantate and wins ,with the liver protector and the postcicle(hcg..tamox..).

Im following the anxiety approach program from goodlooking looser(can see at the beginnign of the post).

Post: #34

^^ Why do you need PCT if you're on TRT...?

Post: #35

(05-10-2013 10:59 AM)Every10GivesMeA10 Wrote:  ^^ Why do you need PCT if you're on TRT...?

because I will use another anabolic substance "by the way",to get the most of the treatment.

Testosterone is androgenic,so is useful to combine both substances to get the most of the cycle.

You must use postcicle to ensure everything is OK and your testicles are at 100 %(that's why I will use HCG),and tamox to prevent posible gyne

Post: #36

PCT is used to recover your natural Hypothalamus Pituitary Teste Axis. It is a feedback loop of signals.

endogenous hormones shut that down.

PCT is used to kick that back off

TRT will keep the hpta shut down for good.

It is a lifelong low level cycle that requires no PCT.


What you are describing is not TRT but just a steroid cycle, which is fine, but thats not replacement therapy.

be careful with tren e. some people can handle it at high doses no problem, other people have horrible side effects at low doses. I highly recommend starting with trenbolone acetate if you're going to use it because it has a shorter half life and thus if you are having problems you can get it out of your system faster

Post: #37

(05-10-2013 11:16 AM)reaper23 Wrote:  PCT is used to recover your natural Hypothalamus Pituitary Teste Axis. It is a feedback loop of signals.

endogenous hormones shut that down.

PCT is used to kick that back off

TRT will keep the hpta shut down for good.

It is a lifelong low level cycle that requires no PCT.


What you are describing is not TRT but just a steroid cycle, which is fine, but thats not replacement therapy.

be careful with tren e. some people can handle it at high doses no problem, other people have horrible side effects at low doses. I highly recommend starting with trenbolone acetate if you're going to use it because it has a shorter half life and thus if you are having problems you can get it out of your system faster

the most common side effects of trem e. use are aggressiveness,I will use low doses.

Post: #38

(05-10-2013 11:31 AM)Kristian Wrote:  

(05-10-2013 11:16 AM)reaper23 Wrote:  PCT is used to recover your natural Hypothalamus Pituitary Teste Axis. It is a feedback loop of signals.

endogenous hormones shut that down.

PCT is used to kick that back off

TRT will keep the hpta shut down for good.

It is a lifelong low level cycle that requires no PCT.


What you are describing is not TRT but just a steroid cycle, which is fine, but thats not replacement therapy.

be careful with tren e. some people can handle it at high doses no problem, other people have horrible side effects at low doses. I highly recommend starting with trenbolone acetate if you're going to use it because it has a shorter half life and thus if you are having problems you can get it out of your system faster

the most common side effects of trem e. use are aggressiveness,I will use low doses.

aggressiveness, insomnia, night sweats, day sweats, high blood pressure, high resting heart rate.

what low dose are you talking about?

and PS there are many other boards out there that are better for you to get cycle advice

Post: #39

(05-10-2013 02:38 AM)gamepadawan Wrote:  

(05-09-2013 12:54 PM)Kristian Wrote:  I recently made a blood analysis..and for my 21 years old the results of testosterone were shockingly low....

I workout 4 times per week since 4 years and eat properly.

I was talking with the doctor about if it was normal the results for my age and he said that definitely it wasn't..

He has told me that I can opt to use a TRT (Testosterone Replacement Therapy),in the form of injections or gel..

I recently did a reseach on the internet and there are lot of guys in the same situation...amazing..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPHeybt7UyE

I'm wondering if there has been relation of my low testosterone to problems I usually have like:
*Anxiety
*Depression(no longer with sometimes episodes).

Because the levels of T in all the analysis were very low.

I can't believe that it can be an identified problem(the fact is that it is a problem):

http://boldanddetermined.com/2012/08/19/...ne-levels/

How much sleep are you getting?
Do you drink a lot?
Post a sample week of your diet.
Do you have any health conditions like diabetes or hypgonadism?
What is your body fat percentage?
There are many things that can effect test numbers, I would use the trt and I would also work on lifestyle changes.

*8 h/day
*I never drink alcohol
*My typical diet is the same as any other "bodybuilder" or fitness enthusiastic out there,but combined in a healthier way,as for example I eat plenty of fruits..saturated fats are in a high porcentaje(jam,eggs),and also use omega 3 as a supplement.
*BF % is around 15 %

Related to this area evertything is OK

(05-10-2013 11:37 AM)reaper23 Wrote:  

(05-10-2013 11:31 AM)Kristian Wrote:  

(05-10-2013 11:16 AM)reaper23 Wrote:  PCT is used to recover your natural Hypothalamus Pituitary Teste Axis. It is a feedback loop of signals.

endogenous hormones shut that down.

PCT is used to kick that back off

TRT will keep the hpta shut down for good.

It is a lifelong low level cycle that requires no PCT.


What you are describing is not TRT but just a steroid cycle, which is fine, but thats not replacement therapy.

be careful with tren e. some people can handle it at high doses no problem, other people have horrible side effects at low doses. I highly recommend starting with trenbolone acetate if you're going to use it because it has a shorter half life and thus if you are having problems you can get it out of your system faster

the most common side effects of trem e. use are aggressiveness,I will use low doses.

aggressiveness, insomnia, night sweats, day sweats, high blood pressure, high resting heart rate.

what low dose are you talking about?

and PS there are many other boards out there that are better for you to get cycle advice

the dose is 150-200 mg/week.

I know there are other boards out there.I have taken this decision quickly so the guy in my gym will tell me everything I have to do,also I will read the book building the perfect beast,It gives you all the information you need to use roids safety

Post: #40

(05-10-2013 10:49 AM)Kristian Wrote:  [quote='Mark Minter' pid='442363' dateline='1368180980']

thanks! I would read the book! could u send my in private message from some upload website service?

I would be glad If you share with me your information about T-nation,I like to read all the things related to this stuff.

I have told my gym coach about this problem and in conjunction with the doctor we will plan a TRT focussed on this and also bodybuilding with aesthetics purposes(the doctor doesn't approve the use of wins and trembolone,but it's my responsability).

I will use testosterone cypionate , trembolone enhantate and wins ,with the liver protector and the postcicle(hcg..tamox..).

Im following the anxiety approach program from goodlooking looser(can see at the beginnign of the post).

Just send me a message on the forum. Give me some junk email address and I can send the RAR to you. I already sent it to another guy.

The thing those T-Nation people say about doctors is not all are created equal. And some are fucking arrogant. Some are lazy. Some are stupid. And the T-Nation people are not so much "lay people" . They aren't doctors, but all are experiencing the same treatments and the general attitude was to rely on yourself. T replacement is complicated and other factors and compensating substances will have to be factored in. There are some very technical articles over there. And the level of advice seems somewhat sound. I wouldn't say to blow off all doctors. But the advice over there is not to be bullied by your doctor. Go in educated, research things, and don't rely on him as your only reference source, and act in a way that what he says isn't the only word.

I think you should get a weight trainer. I know you go to the gym 4 times a week, but working with a real trainer is different. There is a good article on building T on Livestrong.com and they say lift heavy weight, mostly in the legs, squats, lunges, romanian deadlift. Lift enough weight that you fail after 6 reps. And you should struggle like a motherfucker on your third set. Divide your body into 3 groups and work one group then a day of cardio, then another group, then cardio, then the third group, then maybe take a day off.

There is another site called http://peaktestosterone.com/. There are more articles, like a blog. They have articles on diet. And various changing articles on T and T therapy.

Also I think you should start a journal. Just write in it and try to do it everyday. You can chronicle things, what you did, how you feel, what you are thinking, any anxiety, etc. I really feel all this is intertwined.

Here is kind of heavy article from the EndoJournal. It is quite technical in style. But it is the basis of what I am saying to you. Personality and hormones are intertwined. But the good news is they are plastic and one way or another, you will get to the bottom of this low T. And then when you start to solve it and factor in these other changes to your life, then you are going to start winning. The weights and gaining muscle mass with increased T will give you as massive boost. I can tell you from experience. Nothing helps more. Nothing works more. Nothing starts the winner effect as well as lifting heavy weight. Look at it like this. You feel like shit now. You aren't happy. You are anxious and depressed. You need see proper lifting and diet as your number 1 priority. It is your salvation. It will begin to cure you.

http://endo.endojournals.org/content/152/9/3422.full

Hang in there. Send me a message via the forum message mechanism with some email I can send you the book and we can communicate in the future.

Post: #41

Are there any online pharmacies where I can buy legit Test Cyp/HCG/Arimedex?

Post: #42

Check out E-Roids

Tons of guys are constantly reviewing gear bought at hundreds of companies.

(05-15-2013 09:39 AM)Seduction Sutra Wrote:  Are there any online pharmacies where I can buy legit Test Cyp/HCG/Arimedex?

Post: #43

You have to understand most doctors are in the business of damage control. If they are GPs they are somewhat prevention oriented, but only towards specific traditional illness, not towards the process of AGING. New philosophical views among SOME doctors are that aging is an illness which is partly preventable, partly by T therapy.

Let's face it "natural" aging is a nightmare. You end up a wrinkled, stooped over, incontinent, impotent prune. So any way you can delay that, most people would trade a year of prune-status for six months more of feeling/looking good status, if it does come to that. It may be that prolonging youthfulness also delays infirmity, that it's a win-win.

So you have to get with someone who has anti-aging philosophy. There's a mainstream associations now, The Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine.

In big cities they sometimes want to soak you, be your "concierge" for 200+ per month without even seeing you. Some lower cost NP will prescribe T if you explain you were already on it and show them the bottle. I'm seeing a nurse practitioner in Norcal for 60 a visit out of pocket and getting bottles of drops of "bio-identical" (whatever that means) hormones for about $25 per month supply. THis is NOT the stuff that helps you bulk, just to get your old man levels up.

Post: #44

Last time I was in the US I looked into HRT a bit and saw a lot of clinics advertising "men's health screenings", which included measuring testosterone and other hormones. It sounds like HRT is fairly well accepted and accessible in the USA so if you are living there I don't see any reason to try to self-prescribe, especially given the risks of shutting down your own T production.

Outside the US, HRT seems to be off the radar and it seems like it is going to be much harder to find a good dr and get supplements. I'm going to start measuring now (only measured 1x a few years ago) and consider supplements after 40/45.

Post: #45

Recently I got 800 ng/dl! But I have low sex drive these days, how surprising.

Post: #46

Check your estradiol level.

(05-15-2013 05:40 PM)AlbertoDelMuerto Wrote:  Recently I got 800 ng/dl! But I have low sex drive these days, how surprising.

Post: #47

I recently got a blood test to check my test levels to set a baseline. My total testosterone was in the normal range ~700 ng/dl, but my free testosterone was flagged as low(I'm 24). I feel fine and have no problems banging multiple times in a night. I'm not sure what's causing the low free test level, I'll have to do more research, maybe it was just a fluke.\

Post: #48

(05-15-2013 05:36 PM)Lemmo Wrote:  Last time I was in the US I looked into HRT a bit and saw a lot of clinics advertising "men's health screenings", which included measuring testosterone and other hormones. It sounds like HRT is fairly well accepted and accessible in the USA so if you are living there I don't see any reason to try to self-prescribe, especially given the risks of shutting down your own T production.

Outside the US, HRT seems to be off the radar and it seems like it is going to be much harder to find a good dr and get supplements. I'm going to start measuring now (only measured 1x a few years ago) and consider supplements after 40/45.

Europe is in the stone age when it comes down to HRT. Even South American and Asian Countries are more advanced when it comes to this.

For example, if you score just above the reference range, the doctor will tell you that it's all in your head and that nothing is going on. I've heard countless of horror stories from guys in the UK so most of them just self medicate. If you live in Thailand or Mexico you can also get them without a prescription so thats easy as well

Post: #49

(05-16-2013 03:47 AM)Every10GivesMeA10 Wrote:  

(05-15-2013 05:36 PM)Lemmo Wrote:  Last time I was in the US I looked into HRT a bit and saw a lot of clinics advertising "men's health screenings", which included measuring testosterone and other hormones. It sounds like HRT is fairly well accepted and accessible in the USA so if you are living there I don't see any reason to try to self-prescribe, especially given the risks of shutting down your own T production.

Outside the US, HRT seems to be off the radar and it seems like it is going to be much harder to find a good dr and get supplements. I'm going to start measuring now (only measured 1x a few years ago) and consider supplements after 40/45.

Europe is in the stone age when it comes down to HRT. Even South American and Asian Countries are more advanced when it comes to this.

For example, if you score just above the reference range, the doctor will tell you that it's all in your head and that nothing is going on. I've heard countless of horror stories from guys in the UK so most of them just self medicate. If you live in Thailand or Mexico you can also get them without a prescription so thats easy as well

what did u hear?lol

Post: #50

(05-15-2013 06:15 PM)Seduction Sutra Wrote:  Check your estradiol level.

(05-15-2013 05:40 PM)AlbertoDelMuerto Wrote:  Recently I got 800 ng/dl! But I have low sex drive these days, how surprising.

I will have to tell my doctor first, otherwise NHS wouldn't do it! I think it has a lot to do with high blood pressure though.