Post: #1

Was thinking from Germany thread

Weber said Protestants would always do well due to their religion.

If we look at Europe today Austria, Germany, SWZ, the Nordics are all the strongest.

There is an argument that I have heard also that the reason Lat Am lags the USA is the Protestant v catholic thing.

I have noticed Protestant churches tend to attract businessmen and the wealthy. Having been to many, they promote hard work, savings, and restraint and honesty

Catholic countries universally seem to struggle as do Orthodox ones.

Among immigrants Hindus and Sikhs tend to perform well, as do Confucians, from ethnically identical societies where there are different religions we can see some religions seem to promote success better than others.

Catholicism (my family are half Catholics) seems to promote more the idea of 'not judging' while forgiveness for whatever you do is promoted. Also poverty is celebrated, whereas Protestants emphasise working harder to solve such problems.

I think religion has a big part to play in success. Everyone think Jews are smart as Ashkenazis have high IQs

Yet brown jews from Yemen who are a mixture of black African and Mediterranean and tend to look like Obama also are brilliant businessmen, bankers and learned people even though they are genetically identical to their muslim brothers.

Could converting all of Europe to Protestantism solve the problems?

Remember the Mediterranean race was always thought of as intellectually superior to barbarian northerners (Ancient Greece, Egypt, Rome, Cretans, Mesopotamia, Persia, Israel, etc) so no HBD arguments make sense imo.

Post: #2

Well I think certain aspects of religion definitely contribute. For example, in Calvinism material success is looked upon as a blessing from God...hence why they're encouraged to succeed financially.

Post: #3

Culture plays a big part in success and religion is a huge component of culture for most people.

The parts of Southern Europe with the least Muslim influence and least inbreeding are as prosperous as Northern Europe so it may not be a Catholic vs protestant thing in that case.

Post: #4

(04-11-2013 09:39 AM)Kentucky Wrote:  Was thinking from Germany thread

Weber said Protestants would always do well due to their religion.

If we look at Europe today Austria, Germany, SWZ, the Nordics are all the strongest.

(...)

Catholic countries universally seem to struggle as do Orthodox ones.

According to the latest census in Austria, we have 65% Catholics and 4% Lutherans. In Switzerland there are 39% Catholics and 31% Lutherans. In Germany, the economically most important states are also predominantly catholic, like Bavaria, Saarland, Rhineland Palatinate, North Rhine-Westphalia, or have a slight catholic majority, like Baden-Württemberg.

It´s, in my opinion, more interesting that many of the wealthy, stable countries are those where religion is not a very important thing.

Post: #5

In a lot of cases it boils down to "cultural values." Consider the old story of the fisherman: one morning in a small village in Mexico, a fisherman was having a beer by the dockside. A Harvard business major who happened to be passing through saw him ann asked him what ailed him, that he was not working, even though the sun was not yet too hot. The fisherman said "I went out early this morning, caught a few fish for my family to eat and a few more to sell at the market, and now there is no more need to work today. I catch a few fish, enjoy the fine weather, and spend time with my family.
The businessman said "oh no señor, you will never get ahead that way. Here is what you ought to do: you must work hard to get ahead in life. Go out early, fish all day and catch more than you need. Then you can sell all the extra and make more money. Why, then you could buy a new and bigger boat, to catch even more fish."
"And then?" asked the Mexican.
"Well, soon you would have a whole fleet of boats. You would catch more fish than anyone else along the coast. Think of it -your company would make you a rich man!"
"And after that? What would I do then?" inquired the fisherman.
"Well," said the American, "then you could retire, and be free to spend your days however you like." You could catch a few fish, enjoy the sunshine and sea breeze, and spend time with your grandchildren."

Post: #6

Post: #7

On Religion:

Blue pill: religion is about values, doing the right thing, faith, getting closer to God, the afterlife etc etc i.e. Religion is about religion.

Red pill: the religious community is an instant network that gets you connected to people who know people, gives you some cover for your immoral activities, and helps keep your wife's hypergamy suppressed through 'thou shalt not be an adultress' teachings so that the men can get on with the business at hand without worrying about the home front. i.e. Religion has nothing to do with religion.

Why 'smaller' religions do better:
Small networks often compensate by being better organised, and as they are smaller, information spreads more rapidly through the network; the network as a whole can respond to information more rapidly and with more co-ordination than large networks.

Which is why religious minorities (Jews, Sikhs, Jains) typically do well for themselves materially. Protestantism is divided into many smaller little religious bodies, making it a collection of mini-networks.

Hindus in their own country are poor (where the Hindu network is large, unwieldy, difficult to organise), yet seem to do well whenever they are an immigrant minority group (where they often cooperate to tackle opportunities).

Catholics in strongly catholic countries suffer from loss of efficiency due to the huge network size - ideas spread slowly, co-ordinated actions take too long.

The actual teaching of the religion is thus irrelevant.

Cover for immoral activities:
Bloody wars, pedophile priests, greed, sex, scandals, assassinations, murders, property conviscation, extortion... You name it, religious folks have done it! And thanks to religion, have gotten away with it!

The actual teaching of the religion is thus irrelevant.

On Women:
The numerous laws for morality in religion are not for the benefit of men, because most men strive to do the right thing simply because logically what's good for the team is good for the individual. Women, who are less capable of logic, benefit more from religious direction and also are pushed to help their men rather than profit from them.

This is the only part where the actual teaching of the religion is relevant, because it helps keep women in line.

Those were just some of my thoughts on the matter, feel free to disagree.

Post: #8

It is a culture thing. The "Protestant Work Ethic" is still strong in the U.S. for those that are protestants.
For example, the parable of the ten talents is a lesson of diligently using your gifts given by God.
Other religions that have similar inclinations for hard work, like confucianism, will have similar results.

Post: #9

I think the common element is that religious people take their lives seriously allowing for development of culture and families. Most people take the alternate track which is an endless pursuit of one pleasure after another, which is temporary. Catholicism is more ritualistic than Protestantism, and as long as you go through the motions you are ok. In contrast, protestant sects are concerned that you actually believe and hence Protestantism demands more internalization of the philosophy. The sublimation of personal desires allows for accumulation of wealth. However, the people who are living in the moment can actually be happier, hence the more festive mood in Southern Latin countries. The tradeoffs are discussed in Freud's book "Civilization and its Discontents".