Post: #1

In Europe we have been force fed the last thirty years that we need to be 'more like the Swedish' in every way

Their experiment has fucked up the lives of millions of children


Long hours in nurseries or with childminders lead to mental health problems and difficulties at school for children, a leading expert claimed yesterday.

According to researcher Jonas Himmelstrand, falling educational standards and a wave of disorder and bullying in schools are directly connected to state subsidies for daycare.

His report is to be presented to MPs this week by pressure group Mothers at Home Matter, which is calling on politicians to cut childcare subsidies and instead ease the bias in the tax and benefit system against those who stay at home to bring up

The analysis looked at the situation in Mr Himmelstrand’s homeland of Sweden where more than nine out of ten children spend their early years in nurseries.

He said: ‘Swedish schools have among the highest truancy, the greatest classroom disorder, the most damage to property and the most offensive language of all comparable nations. I would urge policy makers in the UK to rethink their approach to childcare.

‘Emulating the Swedish approach, where both the staff-to-child ratio and the number of hours children spend in day care are both increasing, is not the answer and is actually damaging to your children’s future.’

Mr Himmelstrand is a controversial figure in Sweden. He now lives outside the country because of what he calls state persecution of his family because of his decision to educate his children at home.


He said: ‘The early exposure of large groups of peers leads to peer-orientation, which has detrimental results on psychological maturation, learning and the transference of culture between generations. It is at the root of bullying, teenage gangs, promiscuity and the flat-lining of culture.’

The fresh claims come as ministers here redouble efforts to encourage British mothers to go out to work.

A majority of mothers of toddlers now take jobs and use nurseries, childminders, nannies or friends or relatives to look after their children while they work.

Childcare Minister Elizabeth Truss has said it is ‘vital’ for mothers to work and is planning changes to childcare regulations to allow fewer staff to look after more pre-school children.
Families with just one working parent have faced increasing risks of poverty in recent years.

Childcare controversy: Researcher Jonas Himmelstrand linked disorder, truancy and low educational standards to parents not spending enough time with their children
The non-working parent gets no help from the tax credit system which subsidises single parents, and the income tax system, unlike those in most of the developed world, gives no extra help to two-parent families or workers with family responsibilities.

David Cameron has yet to make good his 2010 election manifesto promise to give a tax break to married couples.

A number of research projects over the past two decades have suggested young children who spend long hours in daycare can suffer in later years in performance at school.

The Himmelstrand findings said psychological problems among Swedish schoolgirls have tripled since the 1980s; Swedish schools, which 30 years ago were among the best in the world, now produce average results and are below average for maths; and that Swedish schools now have among the worst discipline problems in Europe.

Marie Peacock, of Mothers at Home Matter, said: ‘We urge British policymakers not to try to imitate a Scandinavian system that is yielding negative results.

'The public debate focuses on the supposed advantages of childcare, but there is no parallel discussion in terms of the value of mothers.’


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...z2OSvpjBFY

Post: #2

The urging of mothers to work is one of the most pernicious edicts in modern society. Having the state subsidize a group of strangers to look after your young children while the mother goes off to work to generate income for someone else by means of going to meetings, shuffling papers, and blabbering all day is a fairly insane idea if you really think about it. Of course, that is one of the main "features" of feminism. Feminism is a massive brain washing operation on women (and men). Who does it really benefit to have both parents work? What is this valuable work they are doing? I dare say not 1 in 100 is doing something that is truly of great benefit to society.

I don't even say that mothers necessarily have to be the ones to stay home, but the traditional cooperative division of labor where the male provides and the female rears the children is one that has been proven to work well. Feminism is not really about choice, it's about the "right" choice. Betty Friedan, who is one of the founders of this movement, was a white woman who was just bored with being a house wife and found it ever so oppressive, so she decided that what she wanted was good for all women everywhere. Thus, feminism is founded in female solipsism, and how could it be otherwise?

Post: #3

is this about kindergarten or infants/babies < 3 years?

Post: #4

(03-24-2013 10:06 AM)void Wrote:  is this about kindergarten or infants/babies < 3 years?

Under 3s

Post: #5

Man that's pretty chilling...talk about outsourcing child-rearing to the State all in the name of "Feminism" and "equality for women". Ughhh.

Sweden sounds pretty Big Brotherish to me - as does the UK increasingly. If this scientist actually had to move his family abroad on account of state persecution I find that pretty telling. Interesting how the "Childcare Minister" says it's "vital' for mothers to work - right out of the Feminist playbook!

Would be interesting to hear what the Swedes on the forum say, but frankly coming from the US I can imagine most beta Swedes would be drinking the State Kool-Aid a la the US of A, and would say something along the lines of "it's really not that bad, this is questionable research, we're a model society, etc." Hard to see the forest for the trees something when it's all you know. At least that's what I said for 30+ years in the States until it finally started dawning on me how effed up society was and how the road to prosperity had taken a serious wrong turn.....and then the red pill coalesced & formed, etc.

Post: #6

Waiting on Vicious in 3, 2, 1...

Post: #7

This is thought-provoking. Any parent, no matter where they stand, values being able to instil their values in their children. This system makes that hard.

Sending your child away from such an early age is like playing russian roulette with its moral compass; you renege a great deal of control by handing your children over to strangers so early on in their development.

I'm with Menace, I don't care if it's the mother or the father that stays at home with the child. But forcing the father to take paternity leave (as is being pushed in many places) is ridiculous. Let parents choose and encourage one parent to stay at home during the child's most formative years.

A recent book by a developmental psychologist (I forget the book) argued that peer groups have more influence on children's development than parents after a certain point. Parents should take note.

Ironically these policies also widen social inequality, the opposite outcome from the one intended.

Rich parents can afford to spend more time bringing up their children at home, giving children a better start in life. Households where both parents work send their kids away causing problems later in life. Socialists show themselves to be obsessed with money: they equate more money (two parents working) with a better upbringing. In fact its probably worth sacrificing the additional income in favour of spending more time with your children. They get homecooked meals, private lessons, get their moral compass from their parents and can be socialised with kids and adults who are good influences.

This may be contributing to increased alienation between parents and children too. If children are learning their values outside the home they are less likely to respect their parents and their values.

Post: #8

In the UK whenever they want to push through soem ridiculous feminist crap, they always seem to reference sweden. Example ''The Swedish model of prostitution'', this is where only the man involved is committing a crime. How convenient.

Post: #9

Vicious in 3..2... 1

Post: #10

" ‘The early exposure of large groups of peers leads to peer-orientation, which has detrimental results on psychological maturation, learning and the transference of culture between generations. It is at the root of bullying, teenage gangs, promiscuity and the flat-lining of culture.’ "

This is interesting, and it also helps to explain why the recent profusion of smartphones combined with Facebook has done such massive cultural damage in such a short amount of time: increased peer orientation. People feel connected 24/7 to their peer groups through technology, and so gradually they lose the ability to mentally separate themselves and act with genuine individuality.

Post: #11

I sympathise with those that have to work for financial reasons but if that is not a problem then it is shameful to abandon a small child in this way

Children are not battery chickens

Vicious, how can you defend your country's cruel practice

Post: #12

(04-03-2013 10:15 AM)Kentucky Wrote:  Vicious, how can you defend your country's cruel practice

I ignored this thread since there was nothing worth discussing but I see now that your intention was flame baiting and drama. Like a woman.

Post: #13

Come on, Vicious! We want your opinion.

While I really like Sweden in general and appreciate its economic-social model in many ways, these things interest me because it has also been home to some of the mind-boggling decisions one could think of recently (such as the Assange saga, or the famous anti-prostitution model). You have to admit that it makes it hard for us foreigners to form a proper opinion.

Post: #14

(04-03-2013 10:41 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

(04-03-2013 10:15 AM)Kentucky Wrote:  Vicious, how can you defend your country's cruel practice

I ignored this thread since there was nothing worth discussing but I see now that your intention was flame baiting and drama. Like a woman.

There is no drama you are Swedish so want your opinion

Post: #15

lol the Swedish have no opinion!

I myself am curious how the Swedes think of the Assange scandal... is the average guy in Sweden like "This bitch is crazy! and these false rape laws are out of hand!" Or does Sweden, like the rest of the world think everything is fine and dandy.

Prior to this thread I thought Sweden was a utopia with the exception of it being the worst place to start a business. I bought into the world hype as well, now I just feel naive.

Post: #16

(04-03-2013 10:46 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  While I really like Sweden in general and appreciate its economic-social model in many ways, these things interest me because it has also been home to some of the mind-boggling decisions one could think of recently (such as the Assange saga, or the famous anti-prostitution model). You have to admit that it makes it hard for us foreigners to form a proper opinion.

My opinion is just one man's. What I care about are the facts. But there are no facts presented. There is no data to counter.

Post: #17

(04-03-2013 12:35 PM)Vicious Wrote:  

(04-03-2013 10:46 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  While I really like Sweden in general and appreciate its economic-social model in many ways, these things interest me because it has also been home to some of the mind-boggling decisions one could think of recently (such as the Assange saga, or the famous anti-prostitution model). You have to admit that it makes it hard for us foreigners to form a proper opinion.

My opinion is just one man's. What I care about are the facts. But there are no facts presented. There is no data to counter.

Must not criticize Sweden. Does not compute.

Post: #18

He said: ‘Swedish schools have among the highest truancy, the greatest classroom disorder, the most damage to property and the most offensive language of all comparable nations. I would urge policy makers in the UK to rethink their approach to childcare.


seriously doubt about that. swedes are totally unable to curse (in swedish)

Post: #19

(04-03-2013 01:11 PM)Wreckingball Wrote:  seriously doubt about that. swedes are totally unable to curse (in swedish)

The badly misbehaving students in Swedish schools are not Swedes anyway and they curse in every language on earth except Swedish.

Finland next door has more or less exactly the same system but we so far lack the 95 % immigrant origin student schools and we still have the same top-of-the-world results that Swedes used to have. It is pretty easy to separate the native Swedish population and the immigrant population in those studies of truancy rates etc since they're so geographically segrategated but of course we all already know the results of the comparison so it is taboo.

I don't have any opinion on home care or daycare or whatever but this article is just abusing the taboo on pointing out the obvious reason behind the collapse of Swedish schools in order to blame it on hostility to homeschooling. The 90 % Swedish schools are just as orderly and peaceful as they ever were, it's the 90 % immigrant schools that are full of truancy, disorder, gangs, drugs, stabbings - every imaginable school dysfunction and some that Swedes couldn't previously even imagine.

The state ideology still is that Sweden is the role model of the world and that morally supreme Swedish Social Democracy will show those racist Americans how to do open borders without forming ghettoes, bad schools and all that. It is a total taboo to admit any failing of this project which is why you get all these silly stories about how Swedish students have gone bad when nothing at all has changed about the Swedish students.

Post: #20

(04-03-2013 09:40 PM)jaakkeli Wrote:  The state ideology still is that Sweden is the role model of the world and that morally supreme Swedish Social Democracy will show those racist Americans how to do open borders without forming ghettoes, bad schools and all that. It is a total taboo to admit any failing of this project which is why you get all these silly stories about how Swedish students have gone bad when nothing at all has changed about the Swedish students.

It is laughable how they try to hide this stuff, surely the Swedes can see through the state-media spin? I mean, places like the Rosengard area are awful places, and just using your eyes you can see what the issue is. It's the usual suspects, Somalians and tribal Muslims (of which Somalians can be counted). Then again, the Turks in Germany behave similarly and they aren't tribal, so it leads me to ask whether Islam in general is indeed incmopatible with liberal democracy. Many arguee yes, although I got into trouble in another thread for merely suggesting this with another member, so I'll leave it at that. What causes this nihilistic suicidal tendency in European countries is unfathomable until you start really looking into the anti-nation state policies of the E.U, the various guilt-complexes abundant in europe, common-purpose etc

Post: #21

(04-03-2013 09:40 PM)jaakkeli Wrote:  The state ideology still is that Sweden is the role model of the world and that morally supreme Swedish Social Democracy will show those racist Americans how to do open borders without forming ghettoes, bad schools and all that. It is a total taboo to admit any failing of this project

Post: #22

Not this shit again.
Sweden has a right wing govt.
The social democratic party hasn't been in power for 7 years.

This is why it's impossible discussing this subject. There’s little to no interest in determining what's factually correct.

Post: #23

(04-04-2013 04:49 AM)Vicious Wrote:  Not this shit again.
Sweden has a right wing govt.
The social democratic party hasn't been in power for 7 years.

This is why it's impossible discussing this subject. There’s little to no interest in determining what's factually correct.

That the Swedes consider the Moderate Party a right wing party says it all really.

The problems cited in Sweden are very similar to the problems we see in Australia for the most part.

Post: #24

(04-04-2013 04:49 AM)Vicious Wrote:  Not this shit again.
Sweden has a right wing govt.
The social democratic party hasn't been in power for 7 years.

This is why it's impossible discussing this subject. There’s little to no interest in determining what's factually correct.

(04-04-2013 07:26 AM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  

(04-04-2013 04:49 AM)Vicious Wrote:  Not this shit again.
Sweden has a right wing govt.
The social democratic party hasn't been in power for 7 years.

This is why it's impossible discussing this subject. There’s little to no interest in determining what's factually correct.

That the Swedes consider the Moderate Party a right wing party says it all really.

The problems cited in Sweden are very similar to the problems we see in Australia for the most part.

Right-wingers today are not right-wing at all. They all try to use the same language and logic as lefties and it renders them completely redundant. They pander to utopian ideas hoping to capture middle-of-the-road voters becoming indistinguishable from lefties in the process.