Post: #26

I have seen lots of these guys pull good-looking women consistently. I think to assume they are all doing that via their own insecurities is also inaccurate. It's simply what a lot of guys do nowadays (not hipsters or white collar guys obviously). Get big at the gym, lots of tats, train MMA. There does seem to be an overcompensation, but it's also not beta. These dudes are not pansies.

I completely understand a man can appear to not be physically imposing and still be alpha, but these guys have the ability to make a woman feel protected & safe. In the midwest, several women go for this. Maybe not in Portland.

Post: #27

I think you're projecting your own insecurities by assuming that every other big guy with tattoos you see trains MMA, slays mad pussy on the reg and doesn't take shit from everybody.

It sounds like you have some kind of Vin Diesel fantasy going on in your mind.

Let's get back to reality. It's not news that women like bad boys. Which is why so many guys dress themselves up like that. But to claim that every guy who copies the bad boy look is automatically alpha is ridiculous. The very fact that a guy feels the desire to conform to the bad boy look is itself a marker of insecurity. It's essentially the guy saying, "I feel the need to project the image of a badass to everyone I meet."

Now tell me, would a guy who was genuinely confident in being a badass feel the need to do that?

Of course not. A guy who is legitimately badass and alpha doesn't need your approval or acknowledgement. He doesn't need you to know how badass he is to validate his ego. Hell, he probably doesn't even want you to know.

I'll say it again: you are falling for the theatre these guys are putting on.

Post: #28

Who is more alpha?

The skinny hipster or the muscle head mma guy???

The one who has a gun. Or, the one who controls the power and the access to food, shelter, and females.

Post: #29

I don't think they are automatically alpha, at least in the across the board sense.

They do have alpha characteristics in their own right.

The whole point of it, this kind of guy is on the rise (at least in certain parts of USA) and it goes against the theory that society is getting more beta.

Guys trying to project what society considers "alpha badboy" (regardless of whether they actually are or not) is at an all-time high.

Post: #30

(02-11-2013 10:24 PM)valleyheart Wrote:  I actually think guys are more alpha than ever have been - at least in the midwest and south.



If anything, in the midwest there are more "alpha-in-the-toughguy" sense guys than ever before. Goto any midwestern city, big or small, and you will see the MMA culture.

I mean, these dudes are built, tatted up, confident, and they will let their presence be known. Kind of dudes you don't even want to make eye contact with because they'll think you looked at them wrong or something. Especially post-college age...most of these guys are 23-33. May have something to do with the general lack of hot women above a certain in the midwest...they marry younger.

These guys are just biting long standing Southern California style.

None of these guys got "all tatted up" until it was trendy.

Biting is not alpha.

Post: #31

I wonder if this is symptomatic of society becoming, not more beta, but more alpha and simultaneously more omega? Over my lifetime we've become more openly winner-take-all. We've got a widening gap between rich and poor. Evolutionary psychology has infiltrated everyone's consciousness to a degree. Barriers to female hypergamy, e.g. traditional sexual mores and the need to find a provider, have broken down, leading to more and more girls clustering around a few alpha guys.

When I was growing up there was this idea in the air that we were moving toward androgyny, that more and more girls wanted an Alan Alda type. Few think that way anymore.

These jacked, tatted mma guys may be reacting to the sense that you can't just be a normal, dutiful guy with a decent job anymore--not least because far fewer of those jobs exist. It's be a badass, or be no one.

Post: #32

(02-12-2013 03:28 PM)valleyheart Wrote:  The whole point of it, this kind of guy is on the rise (at least in certain parts of USA) and it goes against the theory that society is getting more beta.

Guys trying to project what society considers "alpha badboy" (regardless of whether they actually are or not) is at an all-time high.

Did it ever occur to you that guys are going out of their way to project an alpha bad boy image precisely because the culture has become more beta, and they want to be sure that women don't automatically lump them in with every other beta herb at first sight?

In the past, fewer men had to engage in this type of bad boy theatre, because men were assumed to be masculine until they proved otherwise. Now, a man is presumed beta until he proves otherwise.

Society HAS become more beta, and the rising prevalence of the bad boy image is actually evidence FOR it, not against it.

Post: #33

(02-12-2013 03:34 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(02-11-2013 10:24 PM)valleyheart Wrote:  I actually think guys are more alpha than ever have been - at least in the midwest and south.



If anything, in the midwest there are more "alpha-in-the-toughguy" sense guys than ever before. Goto any midwestern city, big or small, and you will see the MMA culture.

I mean, these dudes are built, tatted up, confident, and they will let their presence be known. Kind of dudes you don't even want to make eye contact with because they'll think you looked at them wrong or something. Especially post-college age...most of these guys are 23-33. May have something to do with the general lack of hot women above a certain in the midwest...they marry younger.

These guys are just biting long standing Southern California style.

None of these guys got "all tatted up" until it was trendy.

Biting is not alpha.

You might find that style/mentality in Huntington Beach, Long Beach, South Bay nightlife in general.

Not really in LA though.

They might go for a similar style, but the midwest guys take it further, the MMA obsession being the main difference.

When it comes down to it, being perceived as a brawler is somewhat alpha, at least on a caveman level.

Post: #34

(02-12-2013 04:06 PM)valleyheart Wrote:  

(02-12-2013 03:34 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(02-11-2013 10:24 PM)valleyheart Wrote:  I actually think guys are more alpha than ever have been - at least in the midwest and south.



If anything, in the midwest there are more "alpha-in-the-toughguy" sense guys than ever before. Goto any midwestern city, big or small, and you will see the MMA culture.

I mean, these dudes are built, tatted up, confident, and they will let their presence be known. Kind of dudes you don't even want to make eye contact with because they'll think you looked at them wrong or something. Especially post-college age...most of these guys are 23-33. May have something to do with the general lack of hot women above a certain in the midwest...they marry younger.

These guys are just biting long standing Southern California style.

None of these guys got "all tatted up" until it was trendy.

Biting is not alpha.

You might find that style/mentality in Huntington Beach, Long Beach, South Bay nightlife in general.

Not really in LA though.

They might go for a similar style, but the midwest guys take it further, the MMA obsession being the main difference.

When it comes down to it, being perceived as a brawler is somewhat alpha, at least on a caveman level.

And Venice Beach, and San Pedro and Palos Verdes, and Santa Monica, and El Segundo and Oxnard and Ventura and La Jolla and Mission Beach and Oceanside and Pacific Beach and Ocean Beach and Point Loma and Imperial Beach and all the towns inland and San Clemente and all the Orange County Beach towns and all the towns inland.

Quote:They might go for a similar style, but the midwest guys take it further, the MMA obsession being the main difference.

Are you kidding?

It has been this way in Southern California since before UFC 1.

Back when these "tatted up guys" in the midwest were wearing dockers and braided belts and listening to Dave Mathews or John Gayer.

Post: #35

Society itself can not be beta or alpha.

The people within the society are beta or alpha.

The jungle is not alpha or beta. The animals are.

The dominant male silver back gorilla does not care if the jungle is alpha, beta, feminine, masculine, or whatever.

The dominant male silver back gorilla only cares about controling the food, resources, and females.

The human male is the greatest alpha in the universe. Until the aliens show up with bigger guns!

Post: #36

Those midwest guys were probably peewees during UFC 1 days. It's simply part of the local midwest culture now and has been a few years, sort of how the Packers are to Wisconsin. It's really that popular.

By the way, good stuff back then, Gracie vs Shamrock days.

Post: #37

(02-12-2013 03:38 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

(02-12-2013 03:28 PM)valleyheart Wrote:  The whole point of it, this kind of guy is on the rise (at least in certain parts of USA) and it goes against the theory that society is getting more beta.

Guys trying to project what society considers "alpha badboy" (regardless of whether they actually are or not) is at an all-time high.

Did it ever occur to you that guys are going out of their way to project an alpha bad boy image precisely because the culture has become more beta, and they want to be sure that women don't automatically lump them in with every other beta herb at first sight?

In the past, fewer men had to engage in this type of bad boy theatre, because men were assumed to be masculine until they proved otherwise. Now, a man is presumed beta until he proves otherwise.

Society HAS become more beta, and the rising prevalence of the bad boy image is actually evidence FOR it, not against it.

So it's like addition via subtraction? On the flipside...

If society got more alpha, there would be more guys trying to project beta?

Post: #38

I'm from the west coast. I have been around alot of guys from the midwest.

Midwestern guys are tougher. But, they bite our style all day.

Whatever, who cares???

California is the trend setter for the whole world.

Mid West has better BBQ.

Post: #39

I don't think they really copy what's big in California. You'd be seeing skinny jeans tucked into boots with a super deep V-neck (saw a lot of that last time I visited Hollywood). Midwestern guys simply wouldn't do that because it's seen as gay, even in the bigger cities.

The guys in California (at least in LA) don't seem to walk from bar-to-bar looking for someone to practice their submission moves on. I mean, I'm sure these guys exist but they are not the norm how they are in midwest.

Post: #40

a good symptom of society becoming Beta is the IOC 's recent decision to drop wrestling

/thread-20661.html

Post: #41

(02-12-2013 08:09 AM)bojangles Wrote:  

(02-11-2013 11:41 PM)valleyheart Wrote:  An example would be, Bruno Mars releases a hit song, some beta whiney fest about a woman.

It's seen as a sign that society is more beta and going that direction, when in reality, it's just one guy. There's another million guys trying to be as alpha as possible.

What gets forgotten, there's way dudes into bodybuilding & fighting culture than ever in history. More general hostility in society as well.

I understand a guy can be a welterweight hipster and attract women over a 200lb built, toughguy. I'm probably closer to the hipster although I'm not one.

What I'm saying is, there's more "toughguys" in the US than ever before. There's simply nothing beta about that.

This is not true at all, sure there's more people into gym's and stuff now but men in the past were tougher, stronger, did more manual work and actually fought.
Hostility in society? There is none, people are just in their own worlds now, there's less conflict now, just look at the way kids are nurtured through school.

I agree with this as it relates to the whole "there are more 'tough guys'" in society now.

So all of those guys that got drafted into the shitty/tough/dangerous wars, living in jungles and overseas for years on end, oftentimes coming back to physically strenuous manufacturing or construction jobs are not as tough as the guys today?

All of those guys who grew up going to school where when fights went down, teachers gave the kids 12-ouncers to settle the dispute, where teachers themselves hit kids...these guys aren't as tough as guys today?

So the guys of today that sit on their ass 9 hours a day, hit the gym for an hour, go to Muy Thai 2 days and BJJ 1 day are tougher than those other guys? The guys who grew up in schools where kids get suspended for cussing and expelled for throwing a single punch are tougher than the guys from before?

Hmmmm....something seems off here...

Post: #42

(02-12-2013 06:13 PM)michelin Wrote:  a good symptom of society becoming Beta is the IOC 's recent decision to drop wrestling

Yet, if they dropped badminton, it wouldn't be seen as society becoming "more alpha". There's been an abysmally low threshold set (whether intentional or not) to prove something that's not even really there and only perpetuated by pop culture, bravo tv shows, lame sitcoms, and media - that being society becoming more beta (at least in certain parts of the US). I also think the skewed ratios in the US and lack of legalized prostitution have sort of caused a hostility in American younger single men. Some become "beta" just because they seem unhappy, others try to be bad asses to overcompensate. I think there are more guys trying to be tough bad asses than possibly ever.

Besides the point, I've always found it dumb how most sports allow pro athletes yet boxing had to be amateur.

Post: #43

(02-12-2013 05:00 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  I'm from the west coast. I have been around alot of guys from the midwest.

Midwestern guys are tougher. But, they bite our style all day.

Whatever, who cares???

California is the trend setter for the whole world.

Mid West has better BBQ.

Don't forget better hot dogs and pizza.

Chicago in the house.

Post: #44

(02-12-2013 06:15 PM)JohnKreese Wrote:  

(02-12-2013 08:09 AM)bojangles Wrote:  

(02-11-2013 11:41 PM)valleyheart Wrote:  An example would be, Bruno Mars releases a hit song, some beta whiney fest about a woman.

It's seen as a sign that society is more beta and going that direction, when in reality, it's just one guy. There's another million guys trying to be as alpha as possible.

What gets forgotten, there's way dudes into bodybuilding & fighting culture than ever in history. More general hostility in society as well.

I understand a guy can be a welterweight hipster and attract women over a 200lb built, toughguy. I'm probably closer to the hipster although I'm not one.

What I'm saying is, there's more "toughguys" in the US than ever before. There's simply nothing beta about that.

This is not true at all, sure there's more people into gym's and stuff now but men in the past were tougher, stronger, did more manual work and actually fought.
Hostility in society? There is none, people are just in their own worlds now, there's less conflict now, just look at the way kids are nurtured through school.

I agree with this as it relates to the whole "there are more 'tough guys'" in society now.

So all of those guys that got drafted into the shitty/tough/dangerous wars, living in jungles and overseas for years on end, oftentimes coming back to physically strenuous manufacturing or construction jobs are not as tough as the guys today?

All of those guys who grew up going to school where when fights went down, teachers gave the kids 12-ouncers to settle the dispute, where teachers themselves hit kids...these guys aren't as tough as guys today?

So the guys of today that sit on their ass 9 hours a day, hit the gym for an hour, go to Muy Thai 2 days and BJJ 1 day are tougher than those other guys? The guys who grew up in schools where kids get suspended for cussing and expelled for throwing a single punch are tougher than the guys from before?

Hmmmm....something seems off here...

Yeah, this thread suffers from lack of a common definition. Some seem to be arguing that alpha=preening, insecure douche.