Post: #1

I searched and couldn't find anything so I wanted to ask everyone here and about Liver damage from alcohol and ways to reverse it if possible. I'm interested in this because I work in a hospital and I've come across too many people who have destroyed their livers at a young age. I'm in my early 30's and have been drinking heavily for a decade plus. While I'm toning it down from what I used to drink, let's say 80-100 beers a week as an estimate, I still drink more than I should and wondered what the smart people of RVF have to say on the subject. I'm sure others here are in the same boat.

I know the mentality around is usually "Fuck it, lets wyle while we're young" so I'm not trying to bring anybody down, just looking for reliable information. I've never had any examination on my internal organs as far as I know.

Post: #2

(12-12-2012 04:39 AM)JohnnyAppleSeeds Wrote:  I searched and couldn't find anything so I wanted to ask everyone here and about Liver damage from alcohol and ways to reverse it if possible. I'm interested in this because I work in a hospital and I've come across too many people who have destroyed their livers at a young age. I'm in my early 30's and have been drinking heavily for a decade plus. While I'm toning it down from what I used to drink, let's say 80-100 beers a week as an estimate, I still drink more than I should and wondered what the smart people of RVF have to say on the subject. I'm sure others here are in the same boat.

I know the mentality around is usually "Fuck it, lets wyle while we're young" so I'm not trying to bring anybody down, just looking for reliable information. I've never had any examination on my internal organs as far as I know.

I think you'll actually find that a lot of the guys around here are into staying healthy rather than destroying their bodies with alcohol. There are a lot of great threads on optimal health for men.

I myself had a bad run with alcohol for years and was getting out of hand, putting myself in danger and getting violent, etc - but I recently made a commitment to practicing safer social drinking habits and have come a long way. I started a thread here about it (which reminds me...need to update). I haven't kept up on posting very well at all, but I have kept up on the decision I made when starting that thread and it has brought me a long way.

Since first posting it, I've drank to the point of being drunk only once - I make it a point to stop before my BACC gets too high and call it a night. And I haven't gotten violent or destructive when drinking at all.

I still need to look into ways to repair the damage I've already done to my liver, so I'm anxious to hear what people have to say. I think a good juice diet would be a good start, and I've been looking into taking drenamine, which is supposed to offset adrenal fatigue (a common side effect of drinking that has real health consequences).

And exercise is always great, of course, especially after you cut back on the damaging behavior. As I'm sure you already know, given your medical background, the body does a great job of healing itself when treated properly.

I'm definitely of the opinion that you can teach yourself better drinking habits; just like anything else, it's a matter of making a decision and sticking with it.

"Decision is the father of action." - Anthony Robbins

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #3

Check out milk thistle supplements: they're supposed to be great for flushing out toxins in the liver as well as general detoxing.

From wikipedia:

Quote:Many years of research show the active flavanoid-lignan (flavanolignan) group of constituents, called silymarin, contained only in the seed shell has liver-protective and regenerative properties, as well as antioxidant effects. The liver-protective effects were known and written about in ancient times, leading to the active chemical, pharmacological, and safety research beginning in Germany in the 1950s. Clinical use for a variety of liver ailments, such as hepatitis, has also prospered throughout many parts of the world.

Also worth researching are N-Acetyl-Cysteine supplements. It is supposedly an anti-oxidant with a whole lot of liver benefit, especially against alcohol-induced liver damage.

If you're lucky, you might just find a supplement with both- I recommend you do some of your own research and check out what kind of products the U.S. supplement stores have to offer.

Post: #4

The only surefire solution is to stop drinking entirely for a while.

Post: #5

I like to think that my intermittent fasting schedule prevents a lot of liver damage from occurring, but I may be mistaken.

(12-12-2012 04:39 AM)JohnnyAppleSeeds Wrote:  I searched and couldn't find anything so I wanted to ask everyone here and about Liver damage from alcohol and ways to reverse it if possible. I'm interested in this because I work in a hospital and I've come across too many people who have destroyed their livers at a young age. I'm in my early 30's and have been drinking heavily for a decade plus. While I'm toning it down from what I used to drink, let's say 80-100 beers a week as an estimate, I still drink more than I should and wondered what the smart people of RVF have to say on the subject. I'm sure others here are in the same boat.

I know the mentality around is usually "Fuck it, lets wyle while we're young" so I'm not trying to bring anybody down, just looking for reliable information. I've never had any examination on my internal organs as far as I know.

80 to 100 beers a week is kind of impressive, not going to bullshit you there. AFAIK the best way you could (maybe reverse) a lot of liver damage immediately is give up heavy drinking for a couple of months (like by utilizing the three drinks rule) and one full day per week don't eat anything - though feel free to drink plenty of coffee and water. Or limit your eating/drinking window to about four-six hours per day.

I am also a pretty heavy drinker at times and this prevents a lot of weight gain. There are a few studies out there that suggest that intermittent fasting prevents metabolic syndrome, which would greatly worsen liver damage in the presence of heavy alcohol use, if I'm not mistaken.

Post: #6

It can replace scar tissue, heal on its own. People have got their liver back in shape with hepatitis + fatty liver disease, but you have to cut the poisons and up the protectorants:-

Things that damage liver:

alcohol
sugar
fructose

and PUFAs (sunflower oil, fish oil (surprisingly) amplify damage from the above)

things that protect it:

Green Tea (polyphenols)
Dark Chocolate (same)
NAC + Vitamin C (take with alcohol)
Turmeric (powerful antioxidant)

that said, if any of this gives you impetus to drink MORE ("oh now I've found some ways to protect it, I can keep drinking") you're still worse off. The best thing you can do is cut alcohol and sugar. The other stuff is damage control, but the root of the damage is abuse of the poisons.

The ideal "Liver" diet is Paleo (clean meat + veggies) + coconut oil + saturated fats (butter, grass-fed beef etc). Minimal PUFAs (but some omega 3 for general ratios is a good idea), and of course zero alcohol, sugar and minimal carbs. Plenty of green tea, vitamin C, dark chocolate, turmeric.

Post: #7

a lot of people (generally white) drink alot in their 20´s. it really isnt a big deal as long as you slow down when you get into your 30s and up. i think the key if you do drink like another poster mentioned is to cut down on your sugar load which also damages your liver.

the liver is very effective at regenerating itself as long as you havent destroyed it past the point where it cant be regenerated like some alcoholics due with cirosis. if you enjoy getting fucked up just try and keep to under 3 nights a week that way your liver has time to regenerate.

personally ive drank a shit load in my life but as ive gotten older i have cut back to just 3-4 nights a week instead of every day which i did for a solid decade. i also avoid sugary drinks completely.

Post: #8

^^^Exactly. I avoid sweets/sugar due to drinking. Don't use sugary mixers with liquor. Scotch has the least amount of sugar. It is important to take a couple of days off after a heavy night of drinking to heal. Milk thistle works well, I've used it. And the most important rule to remember: NEVER START DRINKING AGAIN IN THE MORNING! I can't stress that enough. The liver needs to process the alcohol through from the night before.

Eating is also good. The food helps facilitate the alcohol through the liver.

Post: #9

I've been a big drinker at times and gone without for awhile too, but 100 beers a week? That's 14 a day so if you don't drink every day then on some nights you're drinking 24 beers or more? Wow!

I'd be more worried about kidney stones if I were you.

Post: #10

Do you have a lot of blood vessels showing up on your face ? Around the noise ? If that's the case you better slow down. Obviously if you are turning yellow you better stop all together.

Post: #11

Thanks to everyone who responded, some good stuff in here. A little more about myself; those numbers of beers and the heavy drinking I've done was mainly from 20-26 or so when I had a kegerator in my room. While being in great shape some of that time I had no game and my nights out consisted of 4-10 pints while getting ready to go out and then not getting close to a lay as I got shitfaced, had pretty bad public anxiety.

I've sinced curbed my drinking; probably 1/4 -1/10th those numbers now depending on what I do for the week. No broken blood vessels but I'm Irish so my face is kinda red to begin with. While I still probably drink more than the average person and more than I should I'm fairly confident I don't have any serious damage to my liver. I did have one concern recently drinking Absolute vodka though (I usually drink beer), my stomach in the vicinity of my liver was hurting.

Again thanks for the responses, I'll try some milk thistle and try not to overdo the drinking.

Post: #12

Milk thistles weak...look into tudca...

UDCA is a water-soluble bile salt, which is in contrast to regular bile salts possessing both water soluble and fat soluble ends and conferring a detergent effect. This is good for the bile salt's biological purpose (emulsifying fats in the intestines to help with absorption) but when bile acids back up in the liver, a clinical state called cholestasis which occurs when the liver is unhealthy, these bile salts can be damaging to cells by destroying the membranes and signalling for cell death. TUDCA and other water soluble bile salts like UDCA compete with this toxicity and thus indirectly protect cells from death.

Additionally, it seems that TUDCA is able to reduce stress to any cell's Endoplasmic Reticulum; an organelle in cells that serves as a highway from the nucleus out into the cytoplasm, and aids in folding proteins. Through reducing ER stress, TUDCA has been implicated in a wide range of beneficial metabolic effects such as reducing insulin resistance and diabetes, and being a neurological protection agent. However, usages of TUDCA beyond the liver are preliminary whereas usage of TUDCA for helping an already harmed liver is quite reliable as TUDCA is used in clinical settings (hospitals) for treating cholestasis.

it's relatively cheap and i used it at a time I know my liver enzymes climb and my tests came back spotless so if you're thinking liver support might as well get the best.

Post: #13

drink less.

Post: #14

So..

How did you manage to stay in great shape with 80-100 beers a week?

How do you define "great shape"? Just crazy good genetics?

My body would start decomposing at maybe 30 beers (pints) a week..

Post: #15

Thats a lot of beer to be drinking every day. I drank pretty heavily through my 20's, but now at 32, I drink one maybe two nights a week and that is starting to feel like too much as it takes me a good 2-3 days to fully recover from a night of heavy drinking.

At this point, the negatives significantly out weigh any benefit i get from drinking these days and I think I will be cutting down to maybe 3-4 drinks on a Friday night and that's about it for the week.

Post: #16

How do you drink 100 beers a week assuming you have a job?


I would concentrate on cleaning up my diet & drinking at least 4 cups of water a day.

Post: #17

(12-12-2012 08:54 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  ^^^Exactly. I avoid sweets/sugar due to drinking. Don't use sugary mixers with liquor. Scotch has the least amount of sugar. It is important to take a couple of days off after a heavy night of drinking to heal. Milk thistle works well, I've used it. And the most important rule to remember: NEVER START DRINKING AGAIN IN THE MORNING! I can't stress that enough. The liver needs to process the alcohol through from the night before.

Eating is also good. The food helps facilitate the alcohol through the liver.

I don't have the quotes here. But I can recall reading several places that the hair of the dog method actually is good for you.

I have always started the next day with a beer. It helps tremendously on me.

Post: #18

The problem is that girls need some sort of alcohol in them to have sex, at least the first time with you. Then after that you can get them wet fully sober.

I would recommend tag vodka to anyone who wants to take shots for that initial interaction

Post: #19

(12-22-2012 10:30 PM)mikeymike Wrote:  Milk thistles weak...look into tudca...

UDCA is a water-soluble bile salt, which is in contrast to regular bile salts possessing both water soluble and fat soluble ends and conferring a detergent effect. This is good for the bile salt's biological purpose (emulsifying fats in the intestines to help with absorption) but when bile acids back up in the liver, a clinical state called cholestasis which occurs when the liver is unhealthy, these bile salts can be damaging to cells by destroying the membranes and signalling for cell death. TUDCA and other water soluble bile salts like UDCA compete with this toxicity and thus indirectly protect cells from death.

Additionally, it seems that TUDCA is able to reduce stress to any cell's Endoplasmic Reticulum; an organelle in cells that serves as a highway from the nucleus out into the cytoplasm, and aids in folding proteins. Through reducing ER stress, TUDCA has been implicated in a wide range of beneficial metabolic effects such as reducing insulin resistance and diabetes, and being a neurological protection agent. However, usages of TUDCA beyond the liver are preliminary whereas usage of TUDCA for helping an already harmed liver is quite reliable as TUDCA is used in clinical settings (hospitals) for treating cholestasis.

it's relatively cheap and i used it at a time I know my liver enzymes climb and my tests came back spotless so if you're thinking liver support might as well get the best.

+1

Post: #20

Use with respect, hercampuri

Post: #21

between the amount of beers i drink on the weekend and the amount of protein shakes i drink through the week, something has got to give

Post: #22

You work in a hospital. Don't you have a regular health check? You need have the relevant blood tests done to check your liver is working normally. If you don't have any symptoms then you are "probably" OK but it's better to get these things checked over which will ease your mind at the very least.

I got a really bad score on the liver test last summer but it turned out to be the effects of hitting the gym hard for the last few months so the score was irrelevant but it got me worried.

By the way, I was thinking that you were an alcoholic but then you said you were Irish. I'm convinced my Irish roots give me better alcohol tolerance haha.

Post: #23

Holy shit dude. I was getting some pretty ridiculous health problems on less than 100 beers per week, and I only did that for a little over a year. You're heading into Jeff Hanneman and Jani Lane territory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Hanneman

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jani_Lane

Post: #24

The biggest thing you can do to protect your liver is to stop eating food made with inflammatory oils, and start eating lots of saturated fats and Medium Chain Triglycerides...

In other words, coconut oil. Check out this post I make awhile ago...

http://hawaiianlibertarian.blogspot.com/...nergy.html

TL;DR

I link a PubMed article showing an experiment in which one group of rats were given a diet heavy in corn oil, the other group, coconut. Both were given a daily dosage of alcohol, equivalent to amount considered abusive human consumption.

The corn oil control group developed fatty liver disease while the coconut oil group had absolutely no liver problems, despite abusive levels of alcohol.

Quote:CONCLUSION: Dietary SFA protects liver from alcohol injury by retarding ethanol metabolism, and carnitine may be involved.

Not only can saturated fatty acids protect your liver from alcohol damage, it can even REVERSE it! From the PubMed article: Dietary saturated fatty acids: a novel treatment for alcoholic liver disease.

Quote:CONCLUSION: A diet enriched in saturated but not unsaturated fatty acids reversed alcoholic liver injury.

Stop eating crap oils (soybean oil, canola oil, corn oil, partially hydrogenated oils) and start eating lots of coconut oil, high quality lard and tallow, bone broth soups and stews, and high grade, grass fed dairy, and you can get your drink on without worrying too much about liver damage....

Oh yeah, one last thing...

...while overdosing on alcohol can be pretty harsh on your liver, high fructose corn syrup and aspirin are actually harsher.

If you have liver damage, not only should you avoid alcohol, but acetamenophen and high fructose corn syrup as well.

aka quit soft drinks and stop eating sweets and junk food.

Post: #25

there are a lot of things you can do to help your liver.

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Glutathione.

Check it out