Post: #1

I like to stare at the date photo for a while before reading the article. The girl is way above average for DC and seems to be thin. The caption says she is a lawyer. I knew it was going to be good. Turns out that this is one of those Date Labs where you throw up your hands and say, "You can't win these hoes."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/...estyle_pop

First, this chick has no idea who she is. She wants to be everything at the same time....

Quote:When people first meet me, they see me as this nice, sweet girl that’s kind of innocent and naive. To some degrees, I definitely am. But then they learn that I’m an attorney and am actually pretty smart, and that I grew up with three brothers and am actually a tough cookie on the inside. I’m fiercely loyal to people that I love, and I have a huge heart. I listen a lot and ask provocative questions. I have a genuine zest for life.

Nice, sweet, innocent, and naive but tough
Loyal and big hearted but provocative



What she wants in a guy...

Quote:Simply put, I need a man. I am actually pretty traditional in a dating sense, in that I like when someone holds a door for me and is otherwise chivalrous. I believe those traditions evolved over time for a reasons. I like to feel taken care of and protected. I prefer someone taller than me, so I can feel like a woman. Intelligence and maturity are really important to me.

She wants a chivalrous man. Fair enough, but is she going to stay home and take care of the house? Is she going to cook every day? Is she going to give up her career? Doubtful. She wants the traditional man while she's a non traditional woman.

So they go on the date but apparently he's too good looking...

Quote:He’s really cute. And for me that sets off alarm bells, when someone is too cute.... I have to tell myself to watch out and make sure he’s also a good person.

But things get a lot better on the date. They seem to vibe a bit. He also displays qualities that she wants in a man...

Quote:He is very chivalrous. When I got up to go to the bathroom, he stood up! I go on a lot of dates, and I’ve never seen anyone do that.

Good looking guy with a j-o-b who is chivalrous and a good person, exactly like she described. He's also Jewish, the same religion as her. This is a winning date right here, right?

WRONG.

Quote:They traded texts, but when Matt spoke to Jessica about setting up a second date, he got denied. “She is more interested in being friends than seeing where things might go,” he told us. Jessica finds herself questioning whether they had as much of a connection as they thought.

Date Lab served her up her ideal man on paper, yet she didn't even give him a second date.

I think we all know what kind of guy she wants...

Post: #2

I'm sure this would have worked out if he would have made out with her and banged her in the bushes near the monument.

Post: #3

How do people even wind up on datelab?

Post: #4

Moral of the story: Go for the kill when you have the chance as you may not get another one.

I'm also noticing a trend recently when reading hamsters. I think it's something I've known subconsciously but never paid any mind to. Whenever a woman knows that she is going to look like a bitch for her actions, she always starts the rationalization with "we". God forbid you fuck up though, "we" goes right out the fucking window and you will have to hear about "you[r]" transgression for the remainder of the relationship.

Post: #5

Plenty of Western women are such sluts nowadays that if you don't fuck them on the first date, you have less chance than a stranger of getting another date with her and sealing the deal.

Also seems like she was getting dick on the side at the time of the date. Given that, almost any dude besides the one fucking her is going to come off as a chump. I can't find it now, but Roosh had a post a long while back saying, basically, that if a woman is getting good steady dick, it's hard if not next to impossible to mack and fuck her.

He's a solid 2 points higher than her in looks, possibly more.

Post: #6

If this chic was 23 and in college, I could dismiss her behavior more easily. But this woman is a hair away from the big 3-0(maybe the most psychologically significant age a woman will turn), she's well past her prime and still playing games. Women like that deserve to end up 40 year old cat ladies.

Quote:She is more interested in being friends than seeing where things might go

How much you guys wanna bet that he will end up being becoming one of her orbiters in the hopes that he will win her over? Sad.

Edit--

One of her friends leaves a comment defending her:

Quote:Hi all, friend of Jessica's here. Can I plead for a little restraint on all the judgment? It's pretty easy to sit with your computer on your couch behind a veil of anonymity, posting harsh comments about a person you know nothing about and will likely never meet. What is not easy is putting yourself out there - trying to honestly and accurately sell yourself, as well as describe what you are looking for - and then having the whole experience documented and published without any editing powers. I'm betting that most, if not all, of you commenters do not have the courage to actually do datelab yourselves, knowing that later you will be subject to the internet commenting cesspool.

Jessica applied to date lab 2.5 years ago, so she was pretty surprised that they finally called her up this year. She had no recollection of what she put in the application, other than she had done it really late at night when she was exhausted. And like all of you, she didn't like the bits that were chosen to go in, and certainly would not have said that if she had done the application recently (or with enough sleep, for that matter). She spent the last two weeks totally nervous trying to remember what she said, and apparently her fears were justified. However, I'd be hard pressed to believe that any of you commenters hadn't at one time said or wrote something you really regretted later - something that did not reflect you as a person. As for the date itself, she had recently started seeing someone else before she went on the date (since, after all, it had been 2.5 years since she applied!), and she didn't think it was fair not to tell him that, though she wanted to remain in touch since they both are pretty active in the Jewish community. How it was written in the Post was not how it actually went down - "deny" is a pretty harsh word.

So you see that one little datelab article is certainly far from the whole story. Matt seems like a great guy, and I'm sure that he will find a great girl too. In the meantime, please think about those things when commenting on this - and future - datelab articles.

Post: #7

Someone really needs to introduce this man to the dark side as he's definitely lacking in the game department:

Quote:Matt: I am really bad at reading signals. We were walking by [the Tidal Basin], and she said something about it being the most romantic place in D.C. And I was unsure what she wanted me to do with that information. Should I kiss her, or was she just sharing this fun bit of information?

Jessica: You know how you start to say something, and as you’re saying it you realize how wrong it’s going to sound? I realized that it probably sounded like a hint that I wanted him to kiss me. We both just kind of stood there wondering whether we should kiss then.

Matt: Like I said, I am extremely bad at this, so I erred on the side of respectable gentleman and didn’t kiss her. Not that I didn’t want to. We were close to where she lives, so I offered to walk her home. Then, I kissed her goodnight. Just a light kiss on the lips.

Have they ever had one guy with any game whatsoever do a Date Lab? This has been going on for years now and a non-negligible percentage of the male population are naturals or have learned some game. Just once I'd like to see one start out with: "Jane: He was acting aloof and I couldn't tell if he was more interested in me or the waitress." ... and end with: "John: She gave me a blower in the dive bar bathroom, not the best I've had but A for effort. Might call her again sometime." Of course, this will never happen.

Post: #8

Post: #9

(08-11-2012 02:37 AM)basilransom Wrote:  Plenty of Western women are such sluts nowadays that if you don't fuck them on the first date, you have less chance than a stranger of getting another date with her and sealing the deal.

Also seems like she was getting dick on the side at the time of the date. Given that, almost any dude besides the one fucking her is going to come off as a chump. I can't find it now, but Roosh had a post a long while back saying, basically, that if a woman is getting good steady dick, it's hard if not next to impossible to mack and fuck her.

He's a solid 2 points higher than her in looks, possibly more.

It's true. I was just talking to my friend about this the other night. 4-5 years ago if you got a makeout during or at the end of the date it was a good sign that she would see you again. In essence the makeout was an 'anti future flake' move.

This no longer seems to be the case with a lot of women. It's best to push for favorable logistics where you can get the ONS. The only women where I've found that a kiss connects them to you are either average, chubby, very traditional, or in life situations where they barely meet men.

I don't even want to know what happens to the betas and regular guys who aren't even going for anything during the first date.

Sometimes I think on the forum we get a somewhat skewed view because we are all players and players in training. The average man who I meet, work with, and talk to is on such a low level it's pathetic. I've heard of dry spells lasting years, never making a cold approach, being approached by a girl and failing to close, and being rich with a good job and only dating trashy single moms.

Post: #10

You need to bang the girl on the first date in order to get her to like you.

For that reason, Date Lab's are almost always going to be failures - way too many girls are self-conscious about being on Date Lab and will avoid appearing slutty in front of the media.


That said, the comments in this article are hilarious. It appears the woman was already seeing another dude when she went out on the date. What a whore, playing the field with lots of different men. Women truly hold all the power in the DC Dating scene.

Jessica never really had any intention of being romantic with this guy, she was already getting her holes filled.

Some of the best comments.

Jealous women:

Quote:Dear Jessica,

What were you thinking Girl?!! This guy just seems to be exactly what you were looking for!
Interesting, fun to be around, very attractive, polite, good conversationalist, jewish! You liked him, he liked you.. So... ??? What's wrong with you?!!
A second date is to get to know each other, find out if there is a potential, confirm or infirm a first good impression... What's the big deal?

Big mistake Girl...
Miss O.

Matt: call me

Quote:Oh. Well I feel so empty. What a great match. Except for that last little part where you realize that there wasn't a chance from the start. That's not supposed to happen. It certainly wasn't fair to waste this great guy's time and some other young woman's chance to meet this great guy. I'm pretty sure there are a. lot. of young women who would be more than happy to spend the evening with him.

It just sucks the fun right out of the whole thing.

Quote:Wow. I felt sucker punched.

Quote:Ah, I see, looking down in the comments, that she went on Date Lab even though she was seeing someone by the time she got the call. That's a no-no in my book.

Quote:Jessica, you're acting like a 19-year-old, not a woman ten years older than that. I understand the comment about his good looks – you can swept away with those and not lift the rock to see the creepy-crawlies skittering from the light. But this guy seems like a mensch. You had good conversation. On similar wavelengths. To refuse to go out on a second date – what were you smoking? The only reason I can think of for refusing (it’s a date, another get-together, fun . . . you’re not jointly pricing Maytags) is if you heard through the temple grapevine that there’s something off with Matt. I’m betting no, you heard no such thing.

Disillusioned men:

Quote:So the other guy must be more Jewish, more cute-r and more polite-r, right? Since there was no 2nd date? And this time next year she'll probably still be complaining about being single.

Meanwhile I'd love to be Matt's Facebook message inbox right now, he's probably getting more hits than a T-Ball stand

Quote:From everything I read and hear, women have a hard time finding good men in DC.

I'm starting to think it's the other way around.

Quote:Jessica, if you Google me you'll find that I was the head of the police force in Northern Ireland who was behind much of the brutality that caused hunger strikes in jail and later head of the police force in London who invented the Suss Laws that provoked the race riots in Brixton that inspired some of the Clash's best songs. Also that I am the foremost expert on the birds of South Africa, a sound engineer in Los Angeles and a fireman in Kentucky. However, none of that is true.

Please double check your Googling and consider that maybe that damning information you turned up about Matt when you got home from that great date was not really about him, but maybe some other guy with the same name.

Quote:Jessica, you've some growing up to do before you settle down with anyone. If you feel like you "need a man," that means you don't feel ready to stand on your own two feet, and if you aren't self-reliant, you'll probably have trouble in your dating relationships.

Maybe you're just truly old-fashioned, and would do best to find a man who is the same way, but I'm thinking it'd behoove you to think about how you come across to other people. You seemed immature and inconsiderate here, and those traits are unlikely to encourage a man with good manners to see you as someone with whom he'd like to spend the rest of his life.

Quote:First off, I want to offer an alternate explanation to Jessica's "I need a man" comment. I don't think she was saying she "needed a man" (as some posters seem to believe) as much as she was inartfully saying that she needed the guy she dates to "be a man", as in act all macho & chivalrous-like. I won't get into how that might be antithetical to other beliefs she may hold as an independent female attorney, but, hey, she's allowed to be an enigma, wrapped in a riddle, wrapped in matzo.

That having been said, after reading her input, boy, does she come off as unlikeable. Well, I guess she's kinda lucky that Matt didn't say that he found fiveheads a major turn-off, but, of course, even if he did, he'd have been too much of a gentleman to mention it....

Quote:No, I understood what she meant. She needed a "man," she got a "man," and still rejected him.

And then of course, the responses to the "friend" of Jessica who Speakeasy posted above:

Quote:A) She should not have gone on the date.

B) We are going off what was in the article, so of course it comes off as judgmental. It's good of you to defend your friend but we don't have all the facts and give you our opinions based on that.

C) I don't consider going on Date Lab being an act of courage.

Quote:And also, if you're composing something that may be printed in the paper, perhaps you should put more thought into what it would convey? Especially as an attorney, wouldn't you take more care?

If so much time had passed and she felt so unsure about it, then she should have declined.

Quote:She's a lawyer -- I just find it hard to believe that she forgot about her application, was so nervous, blah blah blah. The lack of sleep arguments sounds weak, sorry.

Bottom line, and not just for Jessica: We can understand starting up with someone after the date and before the article appears, but NOT her going on Date Lab AFTER starting up with someone. That is not fair to either guy. Not at all. If the Date Lab guy knocks her socks off, first guy gets the boot; or in this case, Date Lab guy gets rejected. She should not have gone on the date.

Quote:All she had to say when they contacted her was that she was seeing someone and there would have been no date. It was as easy as that, and you know that. It's too bad people are judgmental but that's what happens when you put your personal life in a national newspaper. Admirable of you to try to defend your friend but she is too smart to have been bamboozled into this as you say she was.

Whether or not the commenters here have the wherewithal to be featured in Date Lab has nothing to do with what happened with this date. As I said, admirable, but a weak smokescreen.

Quote:At which point of the date was she trying "honestly and accurately" to sell herself?

I must have missed that part.

Quote:Lack of sleep? Sounds like she filled out the DL application after a fun evening out. Sleepy people don't make the mistake of hitting enter on something this important. Tipsy people do.

I do have to agree with everyone else - BIG foul if it has been two and half years since she filled it out and is now dating someone. The moment WaPo gets you on the phone - busy, tired, tipsy - YOU SAY NO.

She is so busy trying to keep WaPo happy the men are getting lost in the shuffle.

And from a user named Roosh4:

Quote:Jessica is a horrible person.

Post: #11

Her friend defended her and said she was seeing some other dude, but I think if the DateLab guy played his cards right he could have smashed it eventually.

Post: #12

The lesson to be learned from this is to ignore everything an American lawyer bitch says and just be the alpha stud that you know she likes. What they say they want in a man is really a trap...

"I want a family man"... guy would tell how he loves his mom... DENIED
"I want a chivalrous man"... guy would hold doors open... DENIED
"I don't want an aggressive creep"... guy doesn't go for the first date bang... DENIED.. she disappears forever.

Also I missed it the first time but here seems to be the kiss of death:

Quote:He seems like a good person.

If an American girl is telling that about you, you're done.

Post: #13

Reading through DateLab again...

"Jessica: He’s really cute. And for me that sets off alarm bells, when someone is too cute. Don’t get me wrong, you need physical attraction. And he was definitely physically attractive — tall, dark hair. If someone would guess what kind of guy Jessica would date, he would be the guy. But when I see someone is so physically attractive, I have to tell myself to watch out and make sure he’s also a good person."


Any girl who refers to herself in the third person is a cunt. Talk about ridiculous.

Post: #14

Kinda off topic, but what does a corporate strategist do? I've never heard that thing in my country.
It seems like he is making lots of money anyway so he should have upped his standards.

Post: #15

Matt: " I try to cook for my friends vegetarian girlfriend to make him happy"

el mechanico:" My buddy's dating a pain in the ass vegetarian cunt"

Post: #16

if you don't do the aggressive first date unexpected kiss. you're not getting any. whenever i leave the restaurant/bar i pin the girl to the wall and go for the strong kiss. a broad once said she knew she was going to fuck me because of how i kissed her. if you don't set the tone early you're doomed for this over polite political correct bullshit.

i bet she had this programmed in her outlook calendar and had dates lined up the week after.

btw

'corporate strategist' is a catch all phrase. it could be anything from an executive to a middle manager that's a spreadsheet jockey. he looks like a khaki/dress shirt - navy sport coat type of guy. the uniform of corporate america. if he's playing his cards right he's parlaying this into more dates and some notoriety with his upper management.

Post: #17

(08-11-2012 07:05 AM)Neo Wrote:  

(08-11-2012 02:37 AM)basilransom Wrote:  Plenty of Western women are such sluts nowadays that if you don't fuck them on the first date, you have less chance than a stranger of getting another date with her and sealing the deal.

Also seems like she was getting dick on the side at the time of the date. Given that, almost any dude besides the one fucking her is going to come off as a chump. I can't find it now, but Roosh had a post a long while back saying, basically, that if a woman is getting good steady dick, it's hard if not next to impossible to mack and fuck her.

He's a solid 2 points higher than her in looks, possibly more.

It's true. I was just talking to my friend about this the other night. 4-5 years ago if you got a makeout during or at the end of the date it was a good sign that she would see you again. In essence the makeout was an 'anti future flake' move.

This no longer seems to be the case with a lot of women. It's best to push for favorable logistics where you can get the ONS. The only women where I've found that a kiss connects them to you are either average, chubby, very traditional, or in life situations where they barely meet men.

I don't even want to know what happens to the betas and regular guys who aren't even going for anything during the first date.

Sometimes I think on the forum we get a somewhat skewed view because we are all players and players in training. The average man who I meet, work with, and talk to is on such a low level it's pathetic. I've heard of dry spells lasting years, never making a cold approach, being approached by a girl and failing to close, and being rich with a good job and only dating trashy single moms.

I misspoke somewhat. The girls who don't call you back because you didn't fuck them on the first date - they aren't necessarily sluts in the strict sense of fucking lots of guys. But mentally, they're similar, because they're unable to foster any sense of intimacy or connection with a man. All they feel is attraction, lust. The moment you two are apart, you're just another dude to compare to all the others, that has to compete with her friends and their bottomless mimosa brunches.

Also, why is the Washington Post so fucking incompetent that it puts people on dates several years after they signed up?

Datelab is valuable because it catalogs what Western women are like. If you told anyone, man or woman, this is what many of the women of today are like, they'd be completely incredulous - they'd think you're just a bitter misogynist who couldn't get laid at a brothel. The comments show the shock that such women exist. Of course, no one HERE is much surprised.

I get the nagging feeling that some of these female commenters spouting outrage and disgust at this woman would actually do something similar. What are the odds that woman after woman in Datelab acts like this, and yet none of the female commenters would? Our friend Matt and others like him may sound good on paper, so to speak, but in person, if he's not getting it wet, he might as well be a broke Muslim midget janitor. I bet these other girls would get just as bored.

Some good comments:

Quote:Well, I suppose if it's OK for the Date Labbers to be in another relationship it certainly takes a lot of the fun out of the 'lab' aspect. Why bother to try to match people up if you aren't actually trying to get a match? Actually, why even ask them how it went, what they talked about, what their impressiong was, etc? Since it doesn't really matter anyway. Maybe it should be called "Go Out to Eat with a Stranger Lab"

And it seems unfair to the other dater, just in case they were actually open to the idea that they might meet someone they were interested in. Hopefully, they tell both people ahead of time that one of the daters is in a relationship. I have a feeling that some of them really wouldn't bother - although there's always the appeal of a free meal - and you certainly wouldn't be nervous - seeing as there's no reason to be.

What is up with the Datelab staff? God they must have this toxic DC combo of SWPL cunty-flavored feminism, where dating is a farce, and if you actually go in with the honest intent of finding a partner, they laugh at you. Actually, plenty of American girls are like that - you must *never* profess to wanting a girlfriend; American girls believe that if you actively want a girlfriend, you must be a loser because... well, why don't you already have one? What's wrong with you that you can't even get a *girlfriend?* They also believe that any man worth his salt must be pinned down and nearly forced into a relationship - if he enters it excitedly, he must be a loser with no options.

Quote:It's the seeming trend of:

1. I'm very picky, 2. These are my needs, 3. I'm very eager to date, 4. Hey, this guy is exactly what I'm looking for and I had a great time, 5. Eh, no thanks.

This is why sex fast is so important. There's almost no way you're going to be her Mr. Right. But get it wet, and you can be her Mr. Right Now for less money and effort, *and* you get laid. Then she won't subject all these ridiculous requirements to you.

Great comment:

Quote:She doesn't owe him a second date, she owed it to him not to go out on the first one.

(Also, I think there was an element, as there always is, that she was just hedging her bets to see if this guy was better than her boyfriend, in which case it would have been the other guy thrown under the bus. Sort of craven, maybe a little mercenary, although I understand a gal has to be practical in this modern world, aka sold to the highest bidder)

I suspected that she was looking for a potential upgrade as well. "If he's better, I'll dump my current guy, if not, I never see Mr. Datelab again. How can I lose?"

Edit: It's still pretty incredible that the commenters don't put two and two together and conclude that this is an exclusively *female* phenomenon. It's just 'people these days' etc. As Roissy/Randall Parker has said, leftism is a war on pattern recognition. All groupings of people are equal, and if you think otherwise, you're a bigot.

Nor is anyone noting that he is much more of a catch than she is. And people are panning her, for, of all things, saying she "needs a man"!?!? That's the only flattering thing she's said! God, fuck these stupid yuppie Jezebels. A woman can't even say she needs a man - she's only 'ready for a relationship' once she feels men are superfluous. Great recipe for romance.

Post: #18

(08-11-2012 08:24 AM)Roosh Wrote:  The lesson to be learned from this is to ignore everything an American lawyer bitch says and just be the alpha stud that you know she likes. What they say they want in a man is really a trap...

"I want a family man"... guy would tell how he loves his mom... DENIED
"I want a chivalrous man"... guy would hold doors open... DENIED
"I don't want an aggressive creep"... guy doesn't go for the first date bang... DENIED.. she disappears forever.

Also I missed it the first time but here seems to be the kiss of death:

Quote:He seems like a good person.

If an American girl is telling that about you, you're done.

Early on in the game, I'd have the occasional girl have one of those moments where she stares at me and says, "You know, you're a good guy."

Nothing has ever caused me to panic as much as that sentence.

Post: #19

Date Lab is inspiring. Watch the limiting beliefs disintegrate as good-looking, wealthy guys are crushed because they don't have game.

Obviously this feeling is dampened somewhat by many of the women on there not being the nicest of people.

Post: #20

Her friend, in trying to defend her, really exposed Jessica for the person she really is. If she thinks her job confers a certain degree of strength on her, she's wrong. Her friend exposed that she's frivolous (filled out the Date Lab application on a lark, late at night, when she was tired, doesn't remember what she wrote, blah, blah), and was actually seeing someone when she decided to accept the date over two years after filling out said application. As a lawyer, she should know that the application isn't legally binding, and the Secret Service isn't going to show up at your door if you decline the date. I'm sure she wouldn't have been the first person to back out.

She was into this guy. That's why she slipped up on divulging the "romantic" location, only to remember she was already seeing someone and regretting it. He messed up by not going for his. Whoever this dude is that she's dating must not be taking care of business if she'd accept another date. I'm sure he's going to read this Date Lab (if their community is so small, someone he knows will read it and pass it on to him), and he should fuck her one last time and dump her. Do EVERY nasty thing he ever wanted to do to a chick, then bounce.

Post: #21

(08-11-2012 01:31 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

(08-11-2012 08:24 AM)Roosh Wrote:  The lesson to be learned from this is to ignore everything an American lawyer bitch says and just be the alpha stud that you know she likes. What they say they want in a man is really a trap...

"I want a family man"... guy would tell how he loves his mom... DENIED
"I want a chivalrous man"... guy would hold doors open... DENIED
"I don't want an aggressive creep"... guy doesn't go for the first date bang... DENIED.. she disappears forever.

Also I missed it the first time but here seems to be the kiss of death:

Quote:He seems like a good person.

If an American girl is telling that about you, you're done.

Early on in the game, I'd have the occasional girl have one of those moments where she stares at me and says, "You know, you're a good guy."

Nothing has ever caused me to panic as much as that sentence.

a lot of times i feel like im being an asshole but girls call me a good guy. how the hell do you stop this from happening

Post: #22

(08-11-2012 07:38 AM)Samseau Wrote:  And from a user named Roosh4:

Quote:Jessica is a horrible person.

LMAO, love it

Post: #23

(08-11-2012 02:20 PM)Ramon Zarate Wrote:  Date Lab is inspiring. Watch the limiting beliefs disintegrate as good-looking, wealthy guys are crushed because they don't have game.

Obviously this feeling is dampened somewhat by many of the women on there not being the nicest of people.

I know! I think the game is the sweetest of all gifts (thanks, uncle roosh!) because it allows me to routinely bang girls even though I have -150 dollars, no job, and no social status whatsoever.

I just banged a girl who was going on expensive dinner dates with a doctor, a lawyer, and a lobbyist. Blew them off and blew me.

Post: #24

I take it they guy paid for the date? Maybe he demand that date lab pay the bill. He was a free meal and some free ego boost for her.

Damn if you are going to go for a 'traditional' date, i use that as an excuse to see ow much shit i can deliver and try to make her walk

Post: #25

That man was like a caricature of a bitches wildest fantasies of a nice guy.

I don't understand how a smart guy can play that kind of game when clearly D.C. is like a shark tank full of piranhas and you're trying to get by being a goldfish.