Post: #26

(02-16-2012 04:53 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  

(02-16-2012 04:44 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(02-16-2012 04:31 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  

(02-16-2012 04:27 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  I never made any mention of "white privilege" or the like. Your comments were inappropriate and hysterical. You made presumptuously ignorant ad hominem attacks against me for simply dropping a link about the rise in interracial marriages. Disagree with the ensuing posts made by others as you may, but you have no basis for attacking me personally.

Are your threads not often race specific? Why?

Completely false. Show me.

You know what?

Without digging around in your threads, becasue I don't have the time, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here. You have my complete retraction of that statement. I won't even say "maybe your threads are, and maybe they aren't often race specific". I'll say: "I have no evidence that your threads are often race specific".

Okay? (although, is this your only race specific thread, I ask you? You tell me)

Let's move on: it's irrelvant. What is relevant is that there are often race specific threads on this forum.

This is one of them, and it is yours, although I acknowledge that the initial topic is innocent enough. However, my point about where these threads often devolve remains.

Also, my point about taking responsibility for the devolved content of race specific threads remains.

That being said, most of my comment wasn't targetting your thread topic, but the devolved content. I reiterate that my response was appropriate.

Thank you for the retraction. I appreciate the honesty. There's some guys on here who would never do that, even when they are clearly in the wrong, so kudos for that.

As for the interracial marriage rise, I actually view it as a good thing, no matter the race of the male or female getting married.

I actually think one of the best ways for Americans to move beyond race is to start fucking each other, but that's just me.

It annoys me as well when I see topics that touch on race devolve into conversations about racism and politics. That's unfortunate, but it also shows to a degree where we are in the US. I disagree with a lot of the commentary made here in that arena, but I don't hold it to heart.

I'm definitely well aware of the potential for threads that touch on race to get hijacked by trolls. That's why I do my best to avoid those discussions or introduce articles or threads that may invite them.

Everyone is going to have a different opinion on the matter and many of us will disagree.

I'm happy to not just have dated and slept with girls of different races, but my personal male friends are from different races as well. That's one of the great things about the US IMO. You can get to know people from all walks of life.

As for where I stand, it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, but I'll pretty much cosign what Morgan Freeman says here:






As for the discussion of white privilege, it's controversial, and I think it's best to leave it out of this thread, but you might want to watch what Tim Wise has to say about it. He makes some good points that you may or may not agree with. I talked about this clip with my former boss, who is a wealthy white man. He loved it.

Post: #27

(02-16-2012 04:01 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  What's white priveledge? Where does it exist today? Show me. Tell me. And not in vague imagery or myths that either aren't supported in their conclusions of white priveledge or aren't explainable primarily through other causes. Ie: I don't want to hear vagueries about how people think that all black people are shoplifters.

I could spend an hour or two composing a very long, comprehensive rebuttal to every point you've made here. There's no need for that, though-this fellow gets all of this across much more effectively than I can.

Edit: Didn't see HC post a shorter clip of this talk above. This is the entire hour of the speech-worth watching.





The following articles also give a fairly strong perspective on "white privilege", and where the idea of its continued existence is coming from.

Bill of Whites

Nostalgia

Flying below the radar

Race and Inequality

When Affirmative Action was White

Here is another great book on the subject, if you wish to read more.

Race is a reality in this society. The term "post-racial America" is nothing more than an oxymoron.

Post: #28

(02-16-2012 04:59 PM)UrbanNerd Wrote:  

(02-16-2012 04:48 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(02-16-2012 04:17 PM)UrbanNerd Wrote:  While this article does not phase me...as I am one those black men who usually seek out black, mixed-with-black or african-descent females FIRST...I am still noticing that the I.R. marriage rates are still TOO LOW for folks to complain about.

I honestly don't care about race when it comes to women. I like women who are attractive and dtf, no matter the color.

I actually tend to view American girls under one large category, with differences according to the region. I notice girls out west and in the mountain states tend to be more receptive to a guy like me. I'm educated, well-traveled, and well-spoken. This is also part of the reason why, more often than not, I attract white women (and foreign women) more.

In DC and NYC, guys like me are everywhere, so I don't find that I have much of an exotic factor. In other cities, it's a little different though.

On a whole, American girls are next to last on my list. That's one reason why I love to travel. I like the nuances of the cultures in other countries more than I do here. I also like the challenge and the reward overseas.

My statement was more about my own people (mainly black women) insisting that the I.R. marriages of black men is hurting the "pool". At 15% max, that is not hurting the pool.

As for "American" girls?...yeah, I do like meeting african-descent women from other places on earth, mainly because of the entitlement mentality of American women.

Having said all of that, I have always maintained that I have had success with American black women in the USA. The ISSUE was that it came kind of late...basically once I was established. That leads to meeting more women wanting to marry quickly when I just want to bang and leave. Doing the international travel satisfies the bang-and-leave, the age-gap issues as well as learning new cultures.

Well said. That whole point about your success coming "late" is an oft-discussed topic as well in the black community. Once black women start getting into that late 20s stage, if they haven't been locked down yet (and most of them haven't), they start to get desperate for a man who throws attention their way, especially if the brother is established like yourself. They hope that you'll be the one they settle down with. Funny, because they weren't like that when they were younger and knew that their "frontin" would have consequences later on.

Post: #29

I'm a reasonable person. People here, who know me well, know my proclivity toward fair rhetoric.

I will point out, even though you have before claimed not to wish to steer the thread toward political race issues, are doing so now through posting the videos. We'll just call it a conclusion to the discussion, although publicly posting a video on "white priveldge" begs a heated discussion. Is that what you intended? I thought we were winding this down. Either way is fine with me. However, I'm not sure if Roosh or other forum members agree.

I'll give the videos a look when I get some time, this evening, and report back. Perhaps we should take this to PM, to spare this thread and the forum any more politics. However, I ask that you keep an open mind should we discuss this further. My discussion will be calm and conversational.

This guy in your white priveledge video is the spokeperson for the "white priveldge" acceptance movement. What it essentially demands is that every white person is deemed a racist, and accept themselves as such. We won't accept that, becasue first it's false, and second it completely neuters anything that we do politically, and lobbies for further priveledge for other political groups that is to our direct detriment. It also says that no matter what we do to create peace and "equality", no matter what priveledges are given to other groups, that we are still innately racist. There are severe race issues in this country, but I will tell you that slandering one group to get your way is not the way to peace and harmony. It's the way to discord and resentment. Be careful not to be brainwashed because a perspective simply exists and sounds like it might benefit you. Be sure that the pespective is a legitimate path to political peace between races. The "white priveledge" movement is not such a path. It's only function is further political disempowerment for whites that already have zero group organization.

Again, we should take this to PM.

Post: #30

(02-16-2012 05:30 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  I'm a reasonable person. People here, who know me well, know my proclivity toward fair rhetoric.

I will point out, even though you have before claimed not to wish to steer the thread toward political race issues, are doing so now through posting the videos. We'll just call it a conclusion to the discussion, although publicly posting a video on "white priveldge" begs a heated discussion. Is that what you intended? I thought we were winding this down. Either way is fine with me. However, I'm not sure if Roosh or other forum members agree.

I'll give the videos a look when I get some time, this evening, and report back. Perhaps we should take this to PM, to spare this thread and the forum any more politics. However, I ask that you keep an open mind should we discuss this further. My discussion will be calm and conversational.

This guy in your white priveledge video is the spokeperson for the "white priveldge" acceptance movement. What it essentially demands is that every white person is deemed a racist, and accept themselves as such. We won't accept that, becasue first it's false, and second it completely neuters anything that we do politically, and lobbies for further priveledge for other political groups that is to our direct detriment. It also says that no matter what we do to create peace and "equality", no matter what priveledges are given to other groups, that we are still innately racist. There are severe race issues in this country, but I will tell you that slandering one group to get your way is not the way to peace and harmony. It's the way to discord and resentment. Be careful not to be brainwashed because a perspective simply exists and sounds like it might benefit you. Be sure that the pespective is a legitimate path to political peace between races. The "white priveledge" movement is not such a path. It's only function is further political disempowerment for whites that already have zero group organization.

Again, we should take this to PM.

You seemed intent on this white privilege issue which is why I directed you to that video. If you've seen it already then cool. If not, you may find it interesting.

That's all. I don't care to discuss the topic nor do I care what your views are one way or the other.

Post: #31

This is the most articulate argument for the existence of white privilege. I cannot add to this without detracting from it. Watch the whole thing, it's only like two minutes:

Post: #32

(02-16-2012 04:01 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  

(02-16-2012 02:53 PM)americanInEurope Wrote:  I think it's great. I'm going to happily add to the biracial percentage as soon as I decide to settle down. But I've also worked with really conservative types of people who were seriously afraid of this. Weird because in one sentence they'd say there's no such thing as white privilage and that everyone has an equal shot, but the very next sentence they'd see a picture like this and say that they're losing their country and power to the minorities.

Talk about talking out both sides of your face.

First, this thread is pure race trolling. Shove it up your ass.

Now, to address the race trolls:

What's white priveledge? Where does it exist today? Show me. Tell me. And not in vague imagery or myths that either aren't supported in their conclusions of white priveledge or aren't explainable primarily through other causes. Ie: I don't want to hear vagueries about how people think that all black people are shoplifters.

Let's talk about government employee ratios by race, let's talk about college admissions that aren't meritocratic, lets talk about affirmative action in positions that should be purely meritocratic, let's talk about quantifiable measures. Let's talk about where priveledge really exists.

What are the white political groups today that perpetuate this "priveledge"? Tell me. Name one effective white political group. Just one. One political group that is just for whites that lobbies for white priveledge, or even white political power? Now shall we name all of the black and latino political groups that do the same for their political interests? That's a long list. Truth: there is not "white priveledge" without white lobbying groups. What you attribute to "priveledge" is in reality just a function of democratic expression of white numbers - democratic majority interest.

I don't get extra consideration in private sector hiring becasue I'm white.
I don't get extra consideration for college admissions becasue I'm white.
I don't get extra consideration for loans becasue I'm white.
The government doesn't give me extra consideration for contracts becasue I'm white.
I don't get ten extra points on the city or state civil service exams becasue I'm white.
I don't get extra consideration for federal hiring becasue I'm white.
I don't have a single political group that speaks up for my rights as a white person.
Do we pay different tax rates?
Do we sit in different areas of the bus?

White priveledge. Your an entitled whiny moron.

Why are the issues of percieved "white political power" (corrected it for you from 'priveledge' - before it was an incongruent dichotomy) and "losing power to minorities" seen as mechanations that cannot co-exist and are therefore "two faced"?

Well, your first problem is that you are conflating the concepts of "political power" and "priveledge". These are not the same, nor can it be assumed that one exists because the other does.

All political groups have "power". That's what politics is. It's the flex of power, ideally and justly for the interests of the majority in any country. A system in which a minority rules, or has more power than the majority, is generally communism - wherein one or two politically aristocratic (protected) minorities have more power than the majority - who are in turn politically inneffective to be self determinant against the wishes of the minority. Thankfully, in an ideal political environment, a democratic system of voting assures that the majorities interests are met and therefore oppression of the majority is avoided. However, there are a myriad of modern methods (media, interest groups, laws) that work to corrupt this system toward unbalanced expression of political power.

"Priveledge" implies an unfair advantage that transcends democratic processes or representation of a group beyond the power that should be representative of its numbers. An example would be an increased ratio of the memebrs of one political group in an agency, that is well beyond their actual representation in greater society. That would be an example of priveledge.

Another example of priveledge is automatic consideration given to someone becasue of their race, even though their grades or other numbers don't exceed that of other applicants. That, sir, is true measurable priveledge.

What priveledge is not is the fair expression of majority political interests. Just becasue it is against your self interest, or rather that your political group isn't the one with majority power, does not equate to "priveledge". It equates to fair democracy.

You don't want to debate me on this. I'll destroy you rhetorically, becasue the arguments to the contrary are pure bullshit. I know politics very well. Shit will be aired on this forum that Roosh doesn't want, and I'll embarrass you for being so entitled to have these significant measurable priveledges and yet still bitch and moan.

Again, what's the point of this thread? It's insanely trollish.

Hencredibnle cassanova: okay, you like fucking white girls. Big deal. go fuck some white girls. But your posts seem to come back to this continuously. Let's get to the root of these race threads. What's your hang up? What's the obsession? Do you wish you were white? Do you just like the feeling of defiling girls who ae lighter than you? Get over it. Do what you will, but realize the trollish nature of these threads.

As long as black and hispanic political groups don't recognize the rights of white politics to exist, as a formed and cohesive movement, similar to how black and hispanic politics have formed and cohesive movements, then you cannot expect sympathy to your cries of priveledge. The other option, and actually the option that makes the most sense if this country is to survive as it is, is to get rid of all special interest groups.

The fact is that most of you haven't clue one about politics. Your politics are muddled becasue they are born out of short-sighted self interest and brain-washing. If you were to have the meta-view, you would see that you are destroying yourselves. Through the politics expressed here, you are hurtling toward your own permanent political disempowerment. This is ironic, considering that you beleive that you are doing the opposite.

I'm at the point where I hate getting into these debate now and I'm kinda sick of it. I try to be fair to both sides of issues, but Hydro, as others have pointed out, of course there is social privilege that comes with being white. It's invisible to you because it's all you know.

Post: #33

Tuthmosis, I have watched that Louis CK comdey routine before.

Let me break down the precise points of this "most articulate argument for the existance of white priviledge". Your words. I'll be meticulous. Let me know if I miss anything, and I'll be sure to add it:

1. Being white is "great".
2. You can time travel, in a time machine, to any point in time and being white is "great".
3. All white people deserve to be held down and fucked in the ass, in the future, for unmentioned past tresspasses (keep in mind that that is quite a violent threat if that is the opinion of the 'white priviledge' movement).
4. If you don't admit that being white is great than you are an asshole.
5. There aren't any slurs that are emotionally adequate to offend white people.

Is that it? What did I miss? Is that the "most articulate argument for the existence of (the) white priveldge (movement)? That's the political reasoning behind this notion of 'white priveledge'? If that's the case, then mark my words, your fucked and I'm fucked becasue people believe this stupidity. You need an education before you utter one more political opinion, becasue that's the biggest piece of shit line of non-reasoning that I've ever heard. Do you guys have one notion of modern politics that isn't based in some fleeting notion of yet-to-be verbalized injustice or unfairness in society? You are really willing to be so politically agressive in your rhetoric, to espouse this white priveledge, based on "articulate" reasoning such as this?

If that's the case, then your an intellectual and a political joke. Entitled craziness like this, which amounts to "having white skin is a sin" won't bring anyone together.

First, let's acknowledge that I'm the only guy here now arguing the other side. The only white guy? I have no idea as to the race of the others here who have not posted their pictures. I'm not going to keep vollying every response here. Maybe we should just accept this forum as a one that is geared toward black political views. All others aren't accepted, even though no real counterpoints have been offered. Just a lot of posturing "I could argue but..." All talk. PM me if you want a real discussion, otherwise I'll chalk this bantering up to a whole lot of nothing.

Speakeasy:

I like you. Don't take this arguing as me being antagonistic to you as a person. However, so, now it's social priviledge? Like what? Tell me. The acceptance of whites by other whites more than they accept blacks socially? I'm not sure if that's an agument for a white priviledge movement. Blacks also accept blacks to an extent greater than they accept whites. I've dated black women, have known their families, and know this to be the case. All ethnicities accept their own to a greater extent than others. That is human nature, although deeper reasons for this could be pontificated. However, a lot of strides have been made to defeat that wall in the past few decades. Unfortunately, the notion of 'white priveldge' will defeat any and all further motivation of white people as it basically says that we can never live equally. Nothing will ever be good enough short of 'no more white people'.

Again, I ask you to remit the social inequalities that I am so used to and don't see. Accepting that some exist based on the state of modern race politics, I ask if they warrant a white privildge movement in the face of the racial privildege that is afforded minorities throughout the acadaemic and employment spheres?

You guys have to weigh both sides before you commit to a concept. Or perhaps your like Hencredible who just turns off and "doesn't care what the other side thinks"(paraphrasing) once his self-interest is validated through any concept. That's fine. But further social problems will arise, not be quelled.

Post: #34

(02-16-2012 07:21 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  Again, I ask you to remit the social inequalities that I am so used to and don't see. Accepting that some exist based on the state of modern race politics, I ask if they warrant a white privildge movement in the face of the racial privildege that is afforded minorities throughout the acadaemic and employment spheres?

Here you go.

Post: #35

I can't write well like most of you guys, but despite the length, hydrogonian does have a point. A lot of us on this board are Americans and I guess non-white posters talk about fucking white bitches. Look, that's cool, but some of you tend to come off contradictory. You talk about racial inequality in this country, while it's true to an extent with the history and all that, and talk about fucking the women of the same group that you have a problem with. I can see how hydrogonian can pick up a black-centric vibe from some posters, and I kind of do, too, sometimes. It's not a problem per se because that's what I'd probably do if I were black; issues concerning black people would be most important. But we all live in the same country and when you're white and hear non-white dudes talk about racism and how the man keeps you down and then see them go chase white women, it's like, "What the hell, man?" You know?

Post: #36

(02-16-2012 07:21 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  If that's the case, then your an intellectual and a political joke. Entitled craziness like this, which amounts to "having white skin is a sin" won't bring anyone together.

It's "you're an intellectual and political joke."

Quote:Let me break down the precise points of this "most articulate argument for the existance of white priviledge"

And, it's P-R-I-V-I-L-E-G-E. No letter D. Good spelling is key when you're insulting somebody's intellect.

@hydro: You know I respect your game, but we're not going to see eye-to-eye on this if you just firmly deny that something exists. That's easy to say when you've uncritically benefited from all of the economic, social, and cultural advantages of being white. By almost every measure, being white is a leg-up. There are libraries worth of evidence. One of a million experiments, for instance, was where they had two people with exactly the same qualifications apply for various jobs. One had a "white name" the others had "ethnic" names. In an overwhelming numbers of cases, the white name got an interview invitation. Names like Tameka Jackson got the worst treatment. Latin American-sounding names and Middle Eastern-sounding names were second.

There have been experiments on bias in voting patterns, in bias in crime enforcement, in customer service. The list just goes on and on and on. You're just ignoring that data--in a panoply of disciplines. You're just basing it on some denial based in your personal experience.

I could--and might--write a whole book to refute this evidenceless denial. But, it's such a ridiculous conversation that I won't participate in it beyond pointing out how absurd it is. It's like trying to persuade you that there's a force that we call gravity. You could deny that you've ever seen evidence of that too.

Listen/watch Athlone's video above. It's a good intro.

Post: #37

(02-16-2012 07:50 PM)Hoover Wrote:  But we all live in the same country and when you're white and hear non-white dudes talk about racism and how the man keeps you down and then see them go chase white women, it's like, "What the hell, man?" You know?

I usually try to stay out of the "race" threads but ummm...I do personally think about this statement. I am for all races dating BUT I do cringe when I read posts from posters who are of african-descent and the posts seem to put caucasian females on some pedestal.

Let's be clear. I am not turning down any good-looking caucasian females to bang....but I am not going to exactly chase or use much game on them either.

This debate is probably better suited for another board altogether.

Post: #38

(02-16-2012 07:50 PM)Hoover Wrote:  I can't write well like most of you guys, but despite the length, hydrogonian does have a point. A lot of us on this board are Americans and I guess non-white posters talk about fucking white bitches. Look, that's cool, but some of you tend to come off contradictory. You talk about racial inequality in this country, while it's true to an extent with the history and all that, and talk about fucking the women of the same group that you have a problem with. I can see how hydrogonian can pick up a black-centric vibe from some posters, and I kind of do, too, sometimes. It's not a problem per se because that's what I'd probably do if I were black; issues concerning black people would be most important. But we all live in the same country and when you're white and hear non-white dudes talk about racism and how the man keeps you down and then see them go chase white women, it's like, "What the hell, man?" You know?

Critiquing the existence of white privilege is unrelated to dating women who happen to be white. I can't help who I'm attracted to. By the way, your argument actually constitutes an ad hominem tu quoque: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

Post: #39

(02-16-2012 07:50 PM)Hoover Wrote:  I can't write well like most of you guys, but despite the length, hydrogonian does have a point. A lot of us on this board are Americans and I guess non-white posters talk about fucking white bitches. Look, that's cool, but some of you tend to come off contradictory. You talk about racial inequality in this country, while it's true to an extent with the history and all that, and talk about fucking the women of the same group that you have a problem with.

And that argument falls apart right here, killed by a false dichotomy (or, as HC just pointed out above while I was writing this, a form of the ad-hominem).

You have assumed that a sexual attraction to any white women (or, to flip it around, to any white men in the case of some minority women) cannot coexist with the acknowledgement of historical racial inequalities in the USA. You've assumed that if you acknowledge racial inequalities, you must dislike white people in general (which would obviously preclude you from being sexually attracted to a white person of either gender).

This is the false dichotomy: you've presumed a mutual exclusivity ( in this case, "either be attracted to a white partner OR acknowledge racial inequality"-pick one) that doesn't exist. A minority male can discuss the problems caused by racial inequality in this society without disliking all white men (and, by extension, white women) simply upon the basis of their being white. These things are not at all mutually exclusive. A non-white male can maintain an attraction for a white partner (this goes for non-white women in interracial relationships as well, obviously) while still acknowledging that racial inequality has been and still is a problem in this society.

You can flip this around more if you go further back in history: wealthy white 18th/19th century southerners frequently espoused views of white racial supremacy and black inferiority/savagery, yet had very little problem maintaining a sexual attraction for (and quite frequently impregnating) black women. To this day, the average African American is approximately 1/5th caucasian by ancestry.

Same deal with Native Americans, actually, so much so that once you reach the early 19th century you'll notice that most of the leaders within Southeastern Native American groups (ex: Chickasaw, Cherokee, Creek, etc) were of predominantly white ancestry (and today, many Native Americans are heavily mixed). In spite of the espoused belief that Native Americans were savages whose extinction was a matter of divine destiny, few had any issue impregnating Indian women.

To sum it up: it is a mistake to assume that the trajectory of sexual attraction linearly follows the path of politics. One can historically be critical of actions in which another group has engaged in (or, in the more racist and extreme cases mentioned above, be very critical of said group's existence in general), but this does not mean they won't engage sexually with members of that group.

Post: #40

(02-16-2012 07:21 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  Maybe we should just accept this forum as a one that is geared toward black political views.

I'd also like to dispel this idea that arguing that there's white privilege somehow constitutes a "black view." First of all, there are plenty of people of all races--including whites--who acknowledge the existence of a pervasive white privilege. Secondly, white privilege affects members of other ethnic/racial groups. This is not a black-and-white issue, and this is not a black-and-white board. From my approximation, this is pretty racially and ethnically diverse community. There's certainly a "black feel" to certain threads and posters, but that doesn't mean that they automatically represent only their own interests and views.

I'd also like to co-sign that the "if-black-guys-date-white-women-there's-no-white-privilege" argument is a red herring--a silly one, in fact. First of all, this conversation has nothing to do with dating white women. Second of all, black guys--or if we expand it out, ethnic guys--dating white women doesn't mean there is no white privilege. What's more, I'd say a lot of white women (maybe even a majority) probably don't date outside their race. So, even if you're going to use that specious-ass argument, it still works to prove bias. But, again, that's not what we're talking about.

My guess is that this wasn't intended as a controversial race thread per se, but ended up becoming one. This will naturally bring up the question whether the moratorium on all race threads isn't still in order. But, frankly, I think a moratorium on political threads might make more sense. I think we can occasionally have productive conversations on race, but the moment it becomes entangled with politics it goes south. Look at the other fire-throwing in the other political threads. Guys go at each other's throats, in circles usually, over the same old shit. They take away more than give. They were gerrymandered into their own board for a while because of how bad they got. I know a lot guys don't agree with that, but that's just my personal assessment. The majority of guys can handle them calmly, but all it takes is 2-3 ad-hominem attackers or ragers and things spiral out of control.

Post: #41

Those of you who believe in white privilege, I would like to ask, what is your solution to this problem, and what should be done about it?

Post: #42

(02-16-2012 09:09 PM)LowerCaseG Wrote:  Those of you who believe in white privilege, I would like to ask, what is your solution to this problem, and what should be done about it?

Acknowledging it.

Post: #43

(02-16-2012 08:05 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

(02-16-2012 07:21 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  If that's the case, then your an intellectual and a political joke. Entitled craziness like this, which amounts to "having white skin is a sin" won't bring anyone together.

It's "you're an intellectual and political joke."

Quote:Let me break down the precise points of this "most articulate argument for the existance of white priviledge"

And, it's P-R-I-V-I-L-E-G-E. No letter D. Good spelling is key when you're insulting somebody's intellect.

@hydro: You know I respect your game, but we're not going to see eye-to-eye on this if you just firmly deny that something exists. That's easy to say when you've uncritically benefited from all of the economic, social, and cultural advantages of being white. By almost every measure, being white is a leg-up. There are libraries worth of evidence. One of a million experiments, for instance, was where they had two people with exactly the same qualifications apply for various jobs. One had a "white name" the others had "ethnic" names. In an overwhelming numbers of cases, the white name got an interview invitation. Names like Tameka Jackson got the worst treatment. Latin American-sounding names and Middle Eastern-sounding names were second.

There have been experiments on bias in voting patterns, in bias in crime enforcement, in customer service. The list just goes on and on and on. You're just ignoring that data--in a panoply of disciplines. You're just basing it on some denial based in your personal experience.

I could--and might--write a whole book to refute this evidenceless denial. But, it's such a ridiculous conversation that I won't participate in it beyond pointing out how absurd it is. It's like trying to persuade you that there's a force that we call gravity. You could deny that you've ever seen evidence of that too.

Listen/watch Athlone's video above. It's a good intro.

Athlone:

What I was requesting is that you don't subject me to an hour long video, and that you do some work in this debate by writing a bit. Just as I have. Too much to ask? I learn faster than he speaks and have spent more time here writing today than any of you. Craft an written argument, that is rhetorically sound, for pete's sake.

Tuthmosis:

You know, tuthmosis, when I'm writing my nth long rebuttal of the day, crafting rebuttals to multiple posters, the spelling goes out the window. Fergiv ma stapitity. Ya poynts r all now cempletly velidated. Ezpesially da Luiz Ck Videa. It wuz vewy gud...

I don't see your "libraries of evidence" hyperbole as compelling, but I know that one thing you don't want to do in this argument is start breaking out study based evidence or statistics to explain race relations issues. Or maybe all my studies and statistics will be "racist" and all of yours will validate the truth. I'm sure that is it. You guys go ahead and decide if that's a road that you want to go down.

Let's get to the root of it all. I want to take a customer service based approach. As a person who now speaks for all white people, what can we do for you, specifically, that will stop these frontal assaults on our group and our politics? Go away? Give you money? Give you land? Make more room in grad school classes or in government positions (that necessarily exclude the meritacritous candidates)? What? We'll do anything. Just tell us what we can give you to stop the political assault. Let us know what you don't have yet that you want. Don't be coy. Tell us so that we can go back to living without these BS politics. Let's stop pussyfooting around. Let's be men about it. What do you want? I mean, I hope that you don't deny our right to exist as a group, but I'm ready for anything. What is it? The only thing that I ask is that this is it. This is the final negotiation before we revert everything that isn't negotiated for to a compeltely meritocrotous default. Everyone is responsible for themselves beyond what is negotiated for. What can we do for you. This is the time. Just name it. I'm serious. No more compalints, just demands/requests. Take as much room as you need to write.

Post: #44

(02-16-2012 09:10 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

(02-16-2012 09:09 PM)LowerCaseG Wrote:  Those of you who believe in white privilege, I would like to ask, what is your solution to this problem, and what should be done about it?

Acknowledging it.

No, that is a permanent acknowledgent of something that will forever inhibit the political ability of a specific group, forever and ever without end, making it both a ludicrous acknowledgment that would effect a permanent political advantage of other groups over it.

Men in free societies don't negotiate permamnet political advantages for specific groups. If there is a problem, we work to solve the root issue.

Is that what you want, a permanent political advantage? Or do you want a society where you get what you earn from your own merit?

Post: #45

(02-16-2012 09:10 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

(02-16-2012 09:09 PM)LowerCaseG Wrote:  Those of you who believe in white privilege, I would like to ask, what is your solution to this problem, and what should be done about it?

Acknowledging it.

So by me acknowledging that white privilege exists, the problem is now solved, at least with respect to me. Is that right?

Post: #46

(02-16-2012 09:29 PM)LowerCaseG Wrote:  So by me acknowledging that white privilege exists, the problem is now solved, at least with respect to me. Is that right?

Not even close. Everytime that you lobby for something in your self-interest, and there are minorities lobying for its antithesis, then the phrase "white privilege" will be invoked, making it politically impossible for you to win the game yourself. You'll be deemed a racist for having any political opinion, whatsoever, that benefits you and your family. You see, the term "white privilege" can be applied so generally that there is no telling where the applications will stop. Furthermore, it creates a further cognitive separation between races that engenders anger. You'll have all monorities that take this concept to heart, growing a seething hatred or resentment for you becasue of the "privilege" that you have over them, increasing bias and even violence against you just becasue you had the fortune/unfortune to be born with white skin. I'm not exagerating. Poor people generally aren't that smart, of any race, and need to latch on to scapegoats.

I have an idea guys. Let's all post our incomes for the past year. Let's see how good our race privilege, or lack thereof, has been to us. Tuthmosis, what does your unpriveleged ass make per year? I want to know what income bracket is whining to me about my privilege.

Post: #47

(02-16-2012 09:04 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  I think a moratorium on political threads might make more sense. I think we can occasionally have productive conversations on race, but the moment it becomes entangled with politics it goes south. Look at the other fire-throwing in the other political threads. Guys go at each other's throats, in circles usually, over the same old shit. They take away more than give. They were gerrymandered into their own board for a while because of how bad they got. I know a lot guys don't agree with that, but that's just my personal assessment. The majority of guys can handle them calmly, but all it takes is 2-3 ad-hominem attackers or ragers and things spiral out of control.

I agree with all of this. Although I'm central to the argument here, I was reacting to a political comment. The problem with race threads is that they too often go political. I'm all good with never talking about any of this. However, I don't believe in the discipline of the average anonymous poster to keep politics, or racial devaluation, out of race threads, even though it's obvious that they aren't even aware of the gravity of what they are saying.

Post: #48

(02-16-2012 09:29 PM)LowerCaseG Wrote:  

(02-16-2012 09:10 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

(02-16-2012 09:09 PM)LowerCaseG Wrote:  Those of you who believe in white privilege, I would like to ask, what is your solution to this problem, and what should be done about it?

Acknowledging it.

So by me acknowledging that white privilege exists, the problem is now solved, at least with respect to me. Is that right?

I was hoping one of the members who disagrees with Hydro would answer.

Post: #49

White privilege arguments are similar to the arguments feminists make about the patriarchy.

I've always looked at the issue like this: If you're at the top of whiteness or maleness, you get privilege. If you're not at the top, you're just a regular schlub like everyone else.

Would you rather be:
a) a 6' tall black guy whose mom is a lawyer and dad is a doctor (i.e., a character from the Cosby show);
b) a 5'8" tall white guy who grew up in the Bundy or Roseanne household?

Now the obvious rejoiner is: But if you make the guy in example a) white, then he's got it better than blacks. Sure.

But that doesn't mean every white guy out there is walking around with privilege.

Hell, if people looked at me now, they'd see privilege.

Growing up, I got sent to the bathroom because I was too dirty. Child protective services came to inspect my home. My parents were on welfare. [Start playing world's smallest violin.]

I'd have gladly grown up like a black classmate of mine, who was tall and had rich parents.

Hell, I'd trade a few inches of height to have grown up with rich parents. I'd take being 5'8" if that meant having a trust fund.

While white guys who are exceptionally tall or rich have privilege, that doesn't mean white privilege is widespread. It's rare.

Most white guys you see don't have any privilege. They are struggling like everybody else.

Post: #50

(02-16-2012 09:29 PM)LowerCaseG Wrote:  

(02-16-2012 09:10 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

(02-16-2012 09:09 PM)LowerCaseG Wrote:  Those of you who believe in white privilege, I would like to ask, what is your solution to this problem, and what should be done about it?

Acknowledging it.

So by me acknowledging that white privilege exists, the problem is now solved, at least with respect to me. Is that right?

By acknowledging its existence, you open the door to the creation of a potential solution later on.

Nothing can change if people just want to pretend it doesn't exist.