Post: #51

(05-20-2014 11:12 AM)TheFinalEpic Wrote:  Tons. What's stopping private sector employees from switching to the public sectors?

Not wanting communism? You know, the model of everyone working in the public sector has been tried in both East Germany and Sovjet Russia and it failed horrible with people being shot trying to get into free market West Germany. They called themselves democratic as well and it all began with labor unions colluding with leftists in order to dominate early voting.

However, consider the simple fact that each and every public sector job comes from money taxed from the private sector. So if everyone went into the public sector where would the money come from? Unless you think we should let the government run all business.

I will bite my tongue to not say harsh words here, but your way of thinking is short sighted and misinformed.

You're basically saying, lets eat all our food in the summer and save none for winter. Or the famous saying: "After us, the flood, I care not what happens when I am dead and gone". Of course, a few years that mistress of the King had her head chopped off in the guillotine.

Post: #52

Okay, here we go. Read my earlier posts and you will understand how the middle class is becoming millionaires. It has nothing to do with making more money that the private sector. A fucking mcdonalds employee could become a millionaire if he invested wisely and saved. So what if the public sector makes more? It's how this class is using their money.

I thought this post was going to be about how to become a millionaire as an employee, not a debate on how public sector workers make 0.5% More (the horror).

Edit: Here's a source from two years ago, when your study was conducted. http://cupe.ca/economics/battle-wages-pa...ic-private
Also, Ontario in Canada is worse in this gap than California with a gap of about 13.9% Currently.

Also, take into account the fact that pension plans and retirement plans are dying in all sectors, not many companies offer these benefits anymore, its just an effect of the new situation. You live in supposedly the most economically-free country in the world, don't hate and just start a business

Post: #53

(05-20-2014 12:29 PM)TheFinalEpic Wrote:  So what if the public sector makes more?

"So what" because the public sector in reality robs the private sector at gunpoint. That is the moral objection.

Second, because the public sector is a lot less efficient than the private sector. The bigger the public sector, the less efficient solutions for the customer.

Third, because the bigger the public sector, the less freedom and the rules, regulations and laws.

Post: #54

(05-20-2014 10:37 AM)Samseau Wrote:  A million dollars isn't jack shit? That's easily in the top .1%. What the hell are you guys talking about?

A million doesn't feel as rich as it used to, because of inflation, but put things in perspective. The average income in the USA is $44,321.67.

http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/AWI.html

How do you think the average people feel? Things are getting more expensive every year and they feel lucky if they can keep their house and car.

A million dollars in cash is pretty good. That'll set you up for life in many parts of the world.

Or it buys you a modest condo in Santa Monica. Everything is relative. It definitely doesn't put you in the .1% though.

Frankly, I don't give a shit how the average Joe making $44,321 feels. The average Joe is the same guy that buys into the game that perpetuates the system we're in, he's just too ignorant to know otherwise. The average Joe shops at big box chain stores, eats fast food, buys into the consumerist lifestyle, has to have his big screen TV with 300 channels, takes on debt he can't afford, and generally lives beyond his means, so fuck the average Joe.

I'm gonna channel Westcoast right now since I know he'd have a field day, but while all the armchair skeptics are trashing the American economy and trashing investing in stocks, there are millionaires being born from that every day. I'll use my dad as an example.

My dad's net worth is ~2mil, about 1.3 liquid. When I was growing up, he owned his own business which yielded him about $60,000 annually, or $108,000 in 2014 dollars. He's still got a business out of his garage that he does for pleasure but still gets him about $50k per year, which is pretty much just gravy money. Back then we were middle class, but I grew up in very humble circumstances. The house I grew up in cost something like $200,000, this is Southern California mind you. I always had to pay for my own car, started working at 16, zero handouts. I didn't even know we had that kind of money until I was out on my own. He followed the conventional advice of Ben Graham, dollar cost averaged into blue chip stocks, and now he owns his own house that he paid for in cash up in the mountains on a couple acres of wilderness. He drives a Prius and an F150. There's nothing about his lifestyle that screams "millionaire". Most of his neighbors fall into a similar story. A few decades of hard work, frugal living, smart investing, and they live comfortably and debt-free.

"Millionaire" conjures up all sorts of romantic, fantasy-ridden imagery, but the reality is anything but. It's completely attainable, and almost entirely up to the individual. On the other hand, there are plenty of "millionaires" that don't actually own anything. These are the ones with $80,000 cars, living on beachfront property, eat at fancy restaurants all the time. Take away their money supply and they'd be fucked. They live fast and hard, and part of me respects that; anyone could die tomorrow so might as well enjoy it right? But that's not me personally.

Post: #55

(05-20-2014 12:35 PM)berserk Wrote:  

(05-20-2014 12:29 PM)TheFinalEpic Wrote:  So what if the public sector makes more?

"So what" because the public sector in reality robs the private sector at gunpoint. That is the moral objection.

Second, because the public sector is a lot less efficient than the private sector. The bigger the public sector, the less efficient solutions for the customer.

Third, because the bigger the public sector, the less freedom and the rules, regulations and laws.

Do you understand the basis of economic stimulation? Your country is no longer a free-market and never will be, because that economic system doesn't fully function. The basis of economic stimulation is to provide jobs to the masses, build infrastructure, hospitals, and public works and supply these people with money so that they can continue to spend on consumer goods. Your government bailed out private sectors oh I don't know.. 6 years ago during the housing bubble. Thus, you guys are leaning towards a system that is alike to Canada's.

You can't use opinions to back up cold hard facts, "the public sector is a lot less efficient" Says who?

Post: #56

(05-20-2014 02:42 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

(05-19-2014 01:39 PM)Mormon Nailer Wrote:  

(05-19-2014 01:34 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  This is true federally and for certain states like California and New York but not others. Here in Tennessee, public servants doing work which requires a degree earn 35-40k plus benefits. Thats definitely not getting rich...for that you need to go to Canada, where an elementary school teacher can clear 90k in salary before insane benefits.

Sheesh.

I hope what you say is true. That's all the more reason for me and my woman to leave NY and go to Texas or something. Fucking commies.

Ahhhhhh yes... feels so good to collect that public money when everyone smirked about me, the "boring gubmint drone"... see you in SE Asia.. oh, wait... you still have a FULL TIME JOB.... well, keep saving!!!! You already have 100k or more, right? Right?

and the next time you need a cop, or a fireman, or need to drive down a paved street.. ask Wall Streeters to do it!! They'll help you, right?

To be hated is next to Godliness.




oooh do me hard baby....

That is complete nonsense. Again, check how your tax dollars are being spent. Less then 10% go to services the average middle class would use.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/2013-taxreceipt
http://www.arc.asm.ca.gov/budgetfactcheck/?p=taxdollars

Any public worker bringing up the emergency services argument / roads can kiss it. I'll gladly pay 5% income tax to pay for essential services. Its other 25%+ that I get completely hosed on.

Keep it mind education is usually paid for via property tax.

If you notice, the only people who defend the public workers are naturally the public workers and their friends / family. That's it.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial/...surowiecki

Gravy train has ended. Pensions will be cut, make no doubt about it. Detroit is only the beginning. I'll personally wait till the bubble comes crashing down and tax rates are more reasonable till I come back to live in the USA.

Post: #57

(05-20-2014 12:38 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

(05-20-2014 10:37 AM)Samseau Wrote:  A million dollars isn't jack shit? That's easily in the top .1%. What the hell are you guys talking about?

A million doesn't feel as rich as it used to, because of inflation, but put things in perspective. The average income in the USA is $44,321.67.

http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/AWI.html

How do you think the average people feel? Things are getting more expensive every year and they feel lucky if they can keep their house and car.

A million dollars in cash is pretty good. That'll set you up for life in many parts of the world.

Or it buys you a modest condo in Santa Monica. Everything is relative. It definitely doesn't put you in the .1% though.

Frankly, I don't give a shit how the average Joe making $44,321 feels. The average Joe is the same guy that buys into the game that perpetuates the system we're in, he's just too ignorant to know otherwise. The average Joe shops at big box chain stores, eats fast food, buys into the consumerist lifestyle, has to have his big screen TV with 300 channels, takes on debt he can't afford, and generally lives beyond his means, so fuck the average Joe.

I'm gonna channel Westcoast right now since I know he'd have a field day, but while all the armchair skeptics are trashing the American economy and trashing investing in stocks, there are millionaires being born from that every day. I'll use my dad as an example.

My dad's net worth is ~2mil, about 1.3 liquid. When I was growing up, he owned his own business which yielded him about $60,000 annually, or $108,000 in 2014 dollars. He's still got a business out of his garage that he does for pleasure but still gets him about $50k per year, which is pretty much just gravy money. Back then we were middle class, but I grew up in very humble circumstances. The house I grew up in cost something like $200,000, this is Southern California mind you. I always had to pay for my own car, started working at 16, zero handouts. I didn't even know we had that kind of money until I was out on my own. He followed the conventional advice of Ben Graham, dollar cost averaged into blue chip stocks, and now he owns his own house that he paid for in cash up in the mountains on a couple acres of wilderness. He drives a Prius and an F150. There's nothing about his lifestyle that screams "millionaire". Most of his neighbors fall into a similar story. A few decades of hard work, frugal living, smart investing, and they live comfortably and debt-free.

"Millionaire" conjures up all sorts of romantic, fantasy-ridden imagery, but the reality is anything but. It's completely attainable, and almost entirely up to the individual. On the other hand, there are plenty of "millionaires" that don't actually own anything. These are the ones with $80,000 cars, living on beachfront property, eat at fancy restaurants all the time. Take away their money supply and they'd be fucked. They live fast and hard, and part of me respects that; anyone could die tomorrow so might as well enjoy it right? But that's not me personally.

http://www.globalrichlist.com/wealth

A million in assets alone is 0.5% top of the world. 3 million puts you in the top 0.15% of the world.

Post: #58

Do business in the US, Live elsewhere; it's as simple as that. A friend of mine and I are going down to texas to look at tax sales and foreclosures, doing business, and returning to Canada.

Post: #59

(05-20-2014 12:50 PM)TheFinalEpic Wrote:  

(05-20-2014 12:35 PM)berserk Wrote:  

(05-20-2014 12:29 PM)TheFinalEpic Wrote:  So what if the public sector makes more?

"So what" because the public sector in reality robs the private sector at gunpoint. That is the moral objection.

Second, because the public sector is a lot less efficient than the private sector. The bigger the public sector, the less efficient solutions for the customer.

Third, because the bigger the public sector, the less freedom and the rules, regulations and laws.

Do you understand the basis of economic stimulation? Your country is no longer a free-market and never will be, because that economic system doesn't fully function. The basis of economic stimulation is to provide jobs to the masses, build infrastructure, hospitals, and public works and supply these people with money so that they can continue to spend on consumer goods. Your government bailed out private sectors oh I don't know.. 6 years ago during the housing bubble. Thus, you guys are leaning towards a system that is alike to Canada's.

You can't use opinions to back up cold hard facts, "the public sector is a lot less efficient" Says who?

That's been the goal of communist societies. How did that work out?

Post: #60

(05-20-2014 12:57 PM)Mormon Nailer Wrote:  

(05-20-2014 12:50 PM)TheFinalEpic Wrote:  

(05-20-2014 12:35 PM)berserk Wrote:  

(05-20-2014 12:29 PM)TheFinalEpic Wrote:  So what if the public sector makes more?

"So what" because the public sector in reality robs the private sector at gunpoint. That is the moral objection.

Second, because the public sector is a lot less efficient than the private sector. The bigger the public sector, the less efficient solutions for the customer.

Third, because the bigger the public sector, the less freedom and the rules, regulations and laws.

Do you understand the basis of economic stimulation? Your country is no longer a free-market and never will be, because that economic system doesn't fully function. The basis of economic stimulation is to provide jobs to the masses, build infrastructure, hospitals, and public works and supply these people with money so that they can continue to spend on consumer goods. Your government bailed out private sectors oh I don't know.. 6 years ago during the housing bubble. Thus, you guys are leaning towards a system that is alike to Canada's.

You can't use opinions to back up cold hard facts, "the public sector is a lot less efficient" Says who?

That's been the goal of communist societies. How did that work out?

Excellent, in Canada we got hit far less hard with the recession than you did. We don't have ghost towns like Flint, Michigan or soon to be, Detroit.

Post: #61

(05-20-2014 01:00 PM)TheFinalEpic Wrote:  

(05-20-2014 12:57 PM)Mormon Nailer Wrote:  

(05-20-2014 12:50 PM)TheFinalEpic Wrote:  

(05-20-2014 12:35 PM)berserk Wrote:  

(05-20-2014 12:29 PM)TheFinalEpic Wrote:  So what if the public sector makes more?

"So what" because the public sector in reality robs the private sector at gunpoint. That is the moral objection.

Second, because the public sector is a lot less efficient than the private sector. The bigger the public sector, the less efficient solutions for the customer.

Third, because the bigger the public sector, the less freedom and the rules, regulations and laws.

Do you understand the basis of economic stimulation? Your country is no longer a free-market and never will be, because that economic system doesn't fully function. The basis of economic stimulation is to provide jobs to the masses, build infrastructure, hospitals, and public works and supply these people with money so that they can continue to spend on consumer goods. Your government bailed out private sectors oh I don't know.. 6 years ago during the housing bubble. Thus, you guys are leaning towards a system that is alike to Canada's.

You can't use opinions to back up cold hard facts, "the public sector is a lot less efficient" Says who?

That's been the goal of communist societies. How did that work out?

Excellent, in Canada we got hit far less hard with the recession than you did. We don't have ghost towns like Flint, Michigan or soon to be, Detroit.

Right, because Flint and Detroit were hit hard because of too many capitalist policies, right?

Canada isn't communist. And you didn't answer about the great success that Communism has had throughout history.

Post: #62

You are absolutely correct, have you seen Capitalism: A Love Story? Do your research, the economic downturn was created by capitalism and a lackadaisical approach to housing and loans without a credit check. You hate on the "Communist" approaches, however the fact of the matter is a mixed type of market works the best. There is no right answers when looking at this topic because all systems have their flaws my friend. Capitalism is great, I own a business. Socialism is great too, I didn't have to pay for an $80,000 spinal surgery, and I can walk again.

Edit: I'm not vouching for communism, its what they do here in Canada to stimulate the economy, build roads, provide needed establishments for education, healthcare, and recreation.

Post: #63

(05-20-2014 01:06 PM)TheFinalEpic Wrote:  You are absolutely correct, have you seen Capitalism: A Love Story? Do your research, the economic downturn was created by capitalism and a lackadaisical approach to housing and loans without a credit check. You hate on the "Communist" approaches, however the fact of the matter is a mixed type of market works the best. There is no right answers when looking at this topic because all systems have their flaws my friend. Capitalism is great, I own a business. Socialism is great too, I didn't have to pay for an $80,000 spinal surgery, and I can walk again.

Edit: I'm not vouching for communism, its what they do here in Canada to stimulate the economy, build roads, provide needed establishments for education, healthcare, and recreation.

Lol. You're citing a leftist propoganda film as your source? Who do you think pressured the banks to give home loans to high-risk people (persons who are unlikely to be able to pay them back)? The government.

What builds roads is Socialism, not Communism.

I didn't watch movies to learn economics. I read books and articles which cited real-world examples.

Post: #64

I'm just gonna leave this here.

Post: #65

Get real Canadians, the only reason your socialism hasn't consumed itself yet is because you don't have as many dependents as the USA nor do you have a large expensive military to pay for.

Don't worry though, you're going down the path to insolvency like everyone else. Once America goes broke and Americans start flooding your boarders we'll see how well your socialism holds up.

Post: #66

(05-20-2014 01:15 PM)TheFinalEpic Wrote:  


I'm just gonna leave this here.

You cited a leftist movie and leftist tv show.

Thread over. You win.

Post: #67

(05-20-2014 01:16 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Get real Canadians, the only reason your socialism hasn't consumed itself yet is because you don't have as many dependents as the USA nor do you have a large expensive military to pay for.

Don't worry though, you're going down the path to insolvency like everyone else. Once America goes broke and Americans start flooding your boarders we'll see how well your socialism holds up.

You guys spend more on your military than the next 25 countries combined, are you preparing for an alien invasion? Because no country or combined countries on this planet would have the balls to go against that.

Edit: Your "leftist" is more my central.

Post: #68

(05-20-2014 11:46 AM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  The article talks about people who are millionaires, not people who make a million a year.

If you save a lot and invest it in corporate america (fuck main street, wall street all the way), then it's easy to come up with this kind of money.

A million in assets is not top .1%.

Again, government jobs have been the path to a middle class life since the creation of 'murica. Just ask any hillbilly vet or one from the ghetto. How it's bad for men blows me away. Stable good jobs create stable families.

Again, haters gonna hate.

Even when talking about assets, a million is still top 1%:

http://www.nasdaq.com/article/americans-...h-cm257517

Quote:The majority of Americans may be financially and economically illiterate. Many have nothing, and likely will never have anything. Over 65% of American adults have a net worth under $100,000

Government jobs are the path to prosperity because they always pay their employees until bankruptcy hits the nation. Government workers are the last ones to get fired.

However, government works provide next to zero value and no have skills that cannot be easily replicated by man or machine. They are leeches in the truest sense of the word and 95% of government work is a scam.

This comes from someone who has worked plenty of government jobs in his life. I know it's a scam, hence why I was eager to get mine.

When the USSR collapsed, government workers all starved to death:

- No collection of pensions
- No more jobs and no more income
- Savings wiped out by hyperinflation

People think they are safe with money. How wrong, how very, very, very wrong.

Post: #69

(05-20-2014 01:23 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(05-20-2014 11:46 AM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  The article talks about people who are millionaires, not people who make a million a year.

If you save a lot and invest it in corporate america (fuck main street, wall street all the way), then it's easy to come up with this kind of money.

A million in assets is not top .1%.

Again, government jobs have been the path to a middle class life since the creation of 'murica. Just ask any hillbilly vet or one from the ghetto. How it's bad for men blows me away. Stable good jobs create stable families.

Again, haters gonna hate.

Even when talking about assets, a million is still top 1%:

http://www.nasdaq.com/article/americans-...h-cm257517

Quote:The majority of Americans may be financially and economically illiterate. Many have nothing, and likely will never have anything. Over 65% of American adults have a net worth under $100,000

Government jobs are the path to prosperity because they always pay their employees until bankruptcy hits the nation. Government workers are the last ones to get fired.

However, government works provide next to zero value and no have skills that cannot be easily replicated by man or machine. They are leeches in the truest sense of the word and 95% of government work is a scam.

This comes from someone who has worked plenty of government jobs in his life. I know it's a scam, hence why I was eager to get mine.

When the USSR collapsed, government workers all starved to death:

- No collection of pensions
- No more jobs and no more income
- Savings wiped out by hyperinflation

People think they are safe with money. How wrong, how very, very, very wrong.

Another scary truth is that most government workers don't have skills that translate into the real world. I've known several life-time teachers who just couldn't handle working in real estate, travel, etc. because they were used to having the privilege to slum it if they felt like it.

Post: #70

(05-20-2014 12:54 PM)InternationalPlayboy Wrote:  http://www.globalrichlist.com/wealth

A million in assets alone is 0.5% top of the world. 3 million puts you in the top 0.15% of the world.

I was referring to American wealth. No point in comparing ourselves to 3rd world countries here...

Post: #71

(05-20-2014 01:26 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

(05-20-2014 12:54 PM)InternationalPlayboy Wrote:  http://www.globalrichlist.com/wealth

A million in assets alone is 0.5% top of the world. 3 million puts you in the top 0.15% of the world.

I was referring to American wealth. No point in comparing ourselves to 3rd world countries here...

Okay, he then cited that in America, someone worth a $1 million is in the top 1% in the US.

Post: #72

What I learned from this thread:

Hollywood actors should be given honorary Phds in Economics.

Canada is a Communist dictatorship.

It's easy to make a million dollars working at McDdonald's.

Post: #73

(05-20-2014 01:19 PM)TheFinalEpic Wrote:  

(05-20-2014 01:16 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Get real Canadians, the only reason your socialism hasn't consumed itself yet is because you don't have as many dependents as the USA nor do you have a large expensive military to pay for.

Don't worry though, you're going down the path to insolvency like everyone else. Once America goes broke and Americans start flooding your boarders we'll see how well your socialism holds up.

You guys spend more on your military than the next 25 countries combined, are you preparing for an alien invasion? Because no country or combined countries on this planet would have the balls to go against that.

Edit: Your "leftist" is more my central.

Most people underestimate how much the world needs American military. People think America is big bad and evil. Guess what? Every country is big bad and evil. You're delusional if you think the American military is worse than anything else. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss, etc.

Once America can no longer afford to pay for the military, wars are going to erupt all over the world en masse.

Can we count the conflicts in regions all over the world that have reached boiling point but are only contained by the USA?

- South Korea vs. North Korea
- Saudi Arabia vs. Iran
- Israel vs. Islam
- Russia vs. Eastern Europe
- India vs. Pakistan
- China vs. South Sea + Japan
- Venezuela probably has military ambitions as well

Quite literally, America's bankruptcy will spark WWIII. Nature abhors a vacuum and the power vacuum America leaves will uncover a whole bunch of scars no one has wanted to look at for a long time.

So part of the reason America is going bankrupt is because America has been paying to keep the peace for such a long time, going on 80 years now.

Globalization will also come to a screeching halt once it becomes unsafe to do international trade, at least temporarily until new regional powers are established. But I guarantee you the days of free trade are coming to an end, as these regional powers aren't going to let people do business without taking a pretty hefty tariff.

Post: #74

It's the 80-20 rule and its only getting worse, just lately the top 20% own 85% of the wealth of the country. You have to consider Obama's plans to getting out of the over $17 trillion hole, what do you guys suggest, because my point earlier is that he's trying to stimulate the economy in a similar way Canada is, by providing the public sector with work.

I don't disagree with you Samseau, America is quite literally the "world police". Nor did I disagree with the fact that they are needed. However, you guys are allied with 25 of the next 26 countries.

Post: #75

Macro 101:

An economy grows through demand. If people have no money to buy things, there is no demand. If there is demand, factories increase output, more people get hired, more stores open, more repairmen get hired, etc.

A rich guy can only eat so much and usually only has one, two or three cars. He might have three houses with the ovens, TVs, furniture, etc.

One rich guy is not going to stimulate as much demand as 1000, 100 or maybe even 10 middle class people.

That is why low private sector wages depress demand and why good government sector wages increase demand. The government itself also buys things and creates demand.

One problem with the USA right now is that the skew of GDP away from wages towards profits has depressed demand for goods and services. That means less growth.