(02-21-2014 09:15 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  If you're implying that Syria exports more oil than Sudan, then that is incorrect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou...il_exports

In fact, one of the main contentious issues between Sudan and South Sudan is that the only way for South Sudan to export its oil is through Sudan's pipelines that go out to Port Sudan where it's shipped out.

As for no one being interested in Sudan, that's not true. Its leader (dictator) Omar Al-Bashir has a warrant out for his arrest from the International Criminal Court (ICC) because of alleged war crimes in Darfur. It's so bad that when he recently flew to China for a meeting with its leadership, he had to stop his presidential plane in Iran and figure out a new route because many countries in Central Asia would not allow his plane in their airspace because of the existing warrant.

Also, he's had to nix UN appearances for fear he might be arrested if he showed up in New York.

China and other countries have major economic investments in Sudan related to its oil. That's Sudan's top export.

Also, Russia has vast quantities of oil and natural gas to meet its energy needs entirely. It doesn't require energy imports and is a net exporter.

Ethiopia is a key player in the Horn of Africa. It has the largest population in Africa after Nigeria. It receives vast sums of western aid, both economic and military. Its capital is the seat of the African Union.

Ethiopia is also a longstanding US ally, having been an ancient Christian nation in a region of hostile actors. For example, the US used Ethiopia as a proxy to invade Somalia in an effort to root Al-Shabab a few years ago. Ethiopia also allows US drones to fly over its airspace to spy and attack terrorists in Somalia.

Syria is important to Russia because of the pipelines that run through it. The same with Iran. Russia has been very successful in the past 5 years at controlling all of the oil transit into the EU, thereby guaranteeing our future revenue from oil and gas sales.
The EU had planned to create its own Nabucco pipeline, but Russia was able to buy all of the fields that were to supply it before the project started.

You won't see the US putting a lot of time and resources into fighting African dictatorships because they don't have any resources that the US wants. African oil reserves are minuscule compared to those in the Middle East.

(02-21-2014 09:15 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  I've never heard that Putin was misquoted when he said that. Even then, I don't think the collapse of the Soviet Union was as severe to Russia as the loss of lives it incurred during WWII, let alone the myriad other events in the 20th century at large (i.e. Holocaust).

Then you probably didn't watch the national address that the quote came from...

Quote:I consider the development of Russia as a free and democratic state to be our main political and ideological goal. We use these words fairly frequently, but rarely care to reveal how the deeper meaning of such values as freedom and democracy, justice and legality is translated into life.

Meanwhile, there is a need for such an analysis. The objectively difficult processes going on in Russia are increasingly becoming the subject of heated ideological discussions. And they are all connected with talk about freedom and democracy. Sometimes you can hear that since the Russian people have been silent for centuries, they are not used to or do not need freedom. And for that reason, it is claimed our citizens need constant supervision.

I would like to bring those who think this way back to reality, to the facts. To do so, I will recall once more Russia’s most recent history.

Above all, we should acknowledge that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a major geopolitical disaster of the century. As for the Russian nation, it became a genuine drama. Tens of millions of our co-citizens and compatriots found themselves outside Russian territory. Moreover, the epidemic of disintegration infected Russia itself.

Individual savings were depreciated, and old ideals destroyed. Many institutions were disbanded or reformed carelessly. Terrorist intervention and the Khasavyurt capitulation that followed damaged the country's integrity. Oligarchic groups – possessing absolute control over information channels – served exclusively their own corporate interests. Mass poverty began to be seen as the norm. And all this was happening against the backdrop of a dramatic economic downturn, unstable finances, and the paralysis of the social sphere.

http://archive.kremlin.ru/eng/speeches/2...7086.shtml

In future, I recommend that you don't read about Russia in the Western press - most of what they write about Russia is misinformed bullshit, if not outright propaganda.

(02-21-2014 09:15 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  Many Russian youth despise Putin and his dictatorship. I'm not saying Russia wants to be European or part of the EU, but I think if Ukraine were to have an association with the EU, so would Russia eventually.

Putin was hated among some groups of young people for a short period of time, but that phase has passed. Anyone who is in the country knows that. Actually, Russians don't care a lot about politics; only about what directly affects them.

In terms of 'association': We would never accept the Eurofags dictating that we increase our taxes and pushing their gay propaganda down our throats. Thankfully, we will not be in that situation any time soon. The countries which signed EU Association Agreements needed funding from the EU - that's the way it works. The EU offers funding and trade agreements in exchange for the associate country changing some things that Germany doesn't like. If anything, you'll see more of Russia telling EU countries what to do. As I see it, cash-strapped Europeans have a choice of three overlords - Germany, Russia, and China.

(02-21-2014 09:15 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  Polish-American statesman Zbigniew Brzeinski was on Charlie Rose saying the same thing.

That's the same rhetoric he's been spinning for the past 30 years. His job was to come up with strategies to bring down Russia, and he was successful at it. Now the game is different but he hasn't updated his ideology. He's still talking about power spheres and missing the point that the game is now hydrocarbons and trade.

I have been looking at the Ukrainian ethnic and linguistic demographics available on Wikipedia and I invite others to if you want detail. It is tempting to round up to 50/50 to explain the countries linguistic and ethnic splits but it isn't quite right.

Ethnicity

- Nationally, less than 18% of the people are ethnically Russian. almost 78 (77.8)% are Ukrainian ethnically. (I have no idea how these surveys dealt with race mixtures, which are so common in FSU.) Well below 50/50.



- The only regions with a majority Russian ethnic population is Crimea. There, less than a third (24.3%) of the people are ethnic Ukrainians.

- The other regions with strong Russian ethnic populations are Lugansk, Donetsk and Odessa, but each is still majority (56-63%) ethnic Ukrainian.

- Other regions where Yanukovich (like Kharkiv) did well were 70-80% ethnically Ukrainian. Regions where he did poorly are on average 90% Ukrainian.


Language

- Folks have pointed out here that Russian is the language of cities, of business and culture. Ukrainian is a peasant language. This is probably the most important fact. The exception, to my experience, is Lviv where the language of the city (and culture) is Ukrainian.

- Historically (in the immediately pre-Soviet era), Ukrainians, speaking Ukrainian, were poor peasants. The cities were strongly Jewish (business) and either Polish, Austrian or Russian (depending on which country was ruling or administering Ukraine at the time.

Spoke Ukrainian at home:


Spoke Russian at home:


- Native language - the language you used in your home - is majority Russian only in Crimea (77%), Lugansk (68%) and Donetsk (75%). In places like Odessa, Dnipropretovsk and Kharkiv region it is strong but still below half. In the major cities it is strong.

From the board perspective, we can of course only counsel people to learn Russian. It is the language of the cities (the dark brown dots on the map). Ukrainian might be good for "village game" but damn, that seems like a lot of work! Girls are conservative.

Voting demographics (age and region) would be another discussion.

(02-21-2014 10:44 PM)rastignac Wrote:  I have been looking at the Ukrainian ethnic and linguistic demographics available on Wikipedia and I invite others to if you want detail. It is tempting to round up to 50/50 to explain the countries linguistic and ethnic splits but it isn't quite right.

Ethnicity

- Nationally, less than 18% of the people are ethnically Russian. almost 78 (77.8)% are Ukrainian ethnically. (I have no idea how these surveys dealt with race mixtures, which are so common in FSU.) Well below 50/50.



- The only regions with a majority Russian ethnic population is Crimea. There, less than a third (24.3%) of the people are ethnic Ukrainians.

- The other regions with strong Russian ethnic populations are Lugansk, Donetsk and Odessa, but each is still majority (56-63%) ethnic Ukrainian.

- Other regions where Yanukovich (like Kharkiv) did well were 70-80% ethnically Ukrainian. Regions where he did poorly are on average 90% Ukrainian.


Language

- Folks have pointed out here that Russian is the language of cities, of business and culture. Ukrainian is a peasant language. This is probably the most important fact. The exception, to my experience, is Lviv where the language of the city (and culture) is Ukrainian.

- Historically (in the immediately pre-Soviet era), Ukrainians, speaking Ukrainian, were poor peasants. The cities were strongly Jewish (business) and either Polish, Austrian or Russian (depending on which country was ruling or administering Ukraine at the time.

Spoke Ukrainian at home:


Spoke Russian at home:


- Native language - the language you used in your home - is majority Russian only in Crimea (77%), Lugansk (68%) and Donetsk (75%). In places like Odessa, Dnipropretovsk and Kharkiv region it is strong but still below half. In the major cities it is strong.

From the board perspective, we can of course only counsel people to learn Russian. It is the language of the cities (the dark brown dots on the map). Ukrainian might be good for "village game" but damn, that seems like a lot of work! Girls are conservative.

Voting demographics (age and region) would be another discussion.

IF you look you wil lsee Odessa the city is very dark. means Russia nspeaking. The Odessa region is pro Russian, but there are Romanian, Bulgarian, and Moldovan speakers in the oblast.
Whats the difference between a Russian and Ukrainian? Its not a separate race.The eastern Slav ethnic group is a mixture of different cultures... hence why Hitler considered subhuman,.The Slav is already a mix, there is really no difference between a belarussian, Russian or Ukrainian.. its seems it more of a designation based on geographic location.
As for "village game". Maybe things changed but I dated village girls.. they are like robots and seem weird around foreigners back then.

(02-21-2014 11:24 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  IF you look you wil lsee Odessa the city is very dark. means Russia nspeaking. The Odessa region is pro Russian, but there are Romanian, Bulgarian, and Moldovan speakers in the oblast.

I think he was talking about Odessa Oblast, because the city itself is definitely Russian speaking. I had to read it a few times to pick that up.

(02-21-2014 11:24 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  Whats the difference between a Russian and Ukrainian? Its not a separate race.The eastern Slav ethnic group is a mixture of different cultures... hence why Hitler considered subhuman,.The Slav is already a mix, there is really no difference between a belarussian, Russian or Ukrainian.. its seems it more of a designation based on geographic location

That's one of the larger problems with the surveys that data is based on. What will they answer if you ask "Кто Вы по-национальности?" I think the answer will usually be whatever the cover of their passport says.

Then you have the issue of determining what "Ukrainian" nationality is. Clearly there are a lot of differences between a L'vov Ukrainian and a Donetsk Ukrainian.

What about bilingualism and mixed languages? A lot of people in the Donbas say they speak Ukrainian, but it's actually Surzhik - they speak Russian with a Ukrainian accent and Ukrainian words mixed in.

"In terms of 'association': We would never accept the Eurofags dictating that we increase our taxes and pushing their gay propaganda down our throats. Thankfully, we will not be in that situation any time soon. The countries which signed EU Association Agreements needed funding from the EU - that's the way it works. The EU offers funding and trade agreements in exchange for the associate country changing some things that Germany doesn't like. If anything, you'll see more of Russia telling EU countries what to do. As I see it, cash-strapped Europeans have a choice of three overlords - Germany, Russia, and China."

Agreed I almost laughed at idea of Russia joining EU. Heck I AM LAUGHING AT IDEA OF UKRAINE JOINING.It be 20 years maybe but by then what makes anyone think that most of the EU will not have fallen apart?
its like the rebel alliance forming.. more star systems slipping though the EU fingers yearly.
I can't wait until a country actually quits.my understanding is that many countries in that agreement give more than they get.
As for young protesters. So what? we have young protesters protesting in America. Russia has much less protesters than any other country. Besides people get more conservative as they get older.
Can't wait until the western whales visit the West Ukraine and hear about there liberal views. .the N word and Fag word will be death to their ears.
Heck the Russians in NYC are racist as fuck!Even after 2 generations

(02-21-2014 11:49 PM)DaveR Wrote:  

(02-21-2014 11:24 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  IF you look you wil lsee Odessa the city is very dark. means Russia nspeaking. The Odessa region is pro Russian, but there are Romanian, Bulgarian, and Moldovan speakers in the oblast.

I think he was talking about Odessa Oblast, because the city itself is definitely Russian speaking. I had to read it a few times to pick that up.

(02-21-2014 11:24 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  Whats the difference between a Russian and Ukrainian? Its not a separate race.The eastern Slav ethnic group is a mixture of different cultures... hence why Hitler considered subhuman,.The Slav is already a mix, there is really no difference between a belarussian, Russian or Ukrainian.. its seems it more of a designation based on geographic location

That's one of the larger problems with the surveys that data is based on. What will they answer if you ask "Кто Вы по-национальности?" I think the answer will usually be whatever the cover of their passport says.

Then you have the issue of determining what "Ukrainian" nationality is. Clearly there are a lot of differences between a L'vov Ukrainian and a Donetsk Ukrainian.

What about bilingualism and mixed languages? A lot of people in the Donbas say they speak Ukrainian, but it's actually Surzhik - they speak Russian with a Ukrainian accent and Ukrainian words mixed in.

Exactly... many of the immigrants to NYC from Ukraine who came right after the break up even will say they are Russian if asked.
It is also confusing..my wife isn't even sure what she is. I KNOW I am Russian because my family immigrated from the Stalingrad area, but technically we were on the territory of Ukraine and there is a village named after my last name in Western ukraine(we were of high rank) so we are all suffering an identity crisis.

Yeah I SEE what he meant about Odessa oblast.. but Odessa oblast actually has sections that speak Romanian, Bulgarian, Moldovan at the borders(although Bulgaria doesn't border). Heck there are some Greek ethnics even. i think much of South Ukraine is like that since it was Ottoman empire territory.
One of the reason Ukraine doesn't allow dual passports is because they are terrified that half the country will try to get a Russain passport. Since the industrial east is mostly urban I am sure even those who might have started out Ukrainian married a Russian and the kids are now Ukrainian since born in Ukraine but thinks he/she is Russain .
IMHO I think the split should be done and over with it. It seems that the nationalist will protest any time a leader gets voted in from the East.. so Ukraine has no chance of being a real Democracy.
Yanuk has a better change winning re election than any of those opposition leaders atm.That's why the extremists want him to resign.

One of the better combat videos: http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/0...-kiev.html

So it looks like the Party of Regions has abandoned Kiev and left the Westerners to do whatever they like. I don't know WTF happened in that EU meeting, but it's accelerated what would normally take a couple of years into a 2-day period. It's looking very much like splitsville from what I can see.

There was a huge meeting of government representatives (3000 of them) in Kharkov today. They're apparently planning defence tactics and how the South/East will operate without instructions from Kiev. For a split, they'll need the support of Dnepropetrovsk or Zaporozhe, otherwise it wouldn't be a contiguous land mass.

Some of the PoR parliamentarians from Central Ukraine have switched sides and didn't attend the Kharkov meeting.

Here's one of the better maps I've seen, in case you don't know the cities and want to follow what's going on. Central and Northern Ukraine are sometimes joined together and called "Central."
   

This all makes me sad because it means Kiev will be on the decline for the next 10 years.

(02-22-2014 12:07 AM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

(02-21-2014 11:49 PM)DaveR Wrote:  

(02-21-2014 11:24 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  IF you look you wil lsee Odessa the city is very dark. means Russia nspeaking. The Odessa region is pro Russian, but there are Romanian, Bulgarian, and Moldovan speakers in the oblast.

I think he was talking about Odessa Oblast, because the city itself is definitely Russian speaking. I had to read it a few times to pick that up.

(02-21-2014 11:24 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  Whats the difference between a Russian and Ukrainian? Its not a separate race.The eastern Slav ethnic group is a mixture of different cultures... hence why Hitler considered subhuman,.The Slav is already a mix, there is really no difference between a belarussian, Russian or Ukrainian.. its seems it more of a designation based on geographic location

That's one of the larger problems with the surveys that data is based on. What will they answer if you ask "Кто Вы по-национальности?" I think the answer will usually be whatever the cover of their passport says.

Then you have the issue of determining what "Ukrainian" nationality is. Clearly there are a lot of differences between a L'vov Ukrainian and a Donetsk Ukrainian.

What about bilingualism and mixed languages? A lot of people in the Donbas say they speak Ukrainian, but it's actually Surzhik - they speak Russian with a Ukrainian accent and Ukrainian words mixed in.

Exactly... many of the immigrants to NYC from Ukraine who came right after the break up even will say they are Russian if asked.
It is also confusing..my wife isn't even sure what she is. I KNOW I am Russian because my family immigrated from the Stalingrad area, but technically we were on the territory of Ukraine and there is a village named after my last name in Western ukraine(we were of high rank) so we are all suffering an identity crisis.

Yeah I SEE what he meant about Odessa oblast.. but Odessa oblast actually has sections that speak Romanian, Bulgarian, Moldovan at the borders(although Bulgaria doesn't border). Heck there are some Greek ethnics even. i think much of South Ukraine is like that since it was Ottoman empire territory.
One of the reason Ukraine doesn't allow dual passports is because they are terrified that half the country will try to get a Russain passport. Since the industrial east is mostly urban I am sure even those who might have started out Ukrainian married a Russian and the kids are now Ukrainian since born in Ukraine but thinks he/she is Russain .
IMHO I think the split should be done and over with it. It seems that the nationalist will protest any time a leader gets voted in from the East.. so Ukraine has no chance of being a real Democracy.
Yanuk has a better change winning re election than any of those opposition leaders atm.That's why the extremists want him to resign.

Yep.

This map is interesting and shows clearly Russian as the primary native language of cities and and Ukrainian in the country and villages.

detail

Odessa oblast is wild:
Odessa city - primarily native Russian speaking (the red patch on the coast).
Odessa Oblast (especially below Moldova)- Russian, Ukrainain, Albanian, Moldovan/Romanian, Bulgarian, Gagauz - shows the Ottoman diversity jimukr104 talks about.

The Ukraine/Russian tagging going on these surveys likely is related to twentieth-century migration under late empire and Soviet rule.

(02-22-2014 09:28 AM)rastignac Wrote:  The Ukraine/Russian tagging going on these surveys likely is related to twentieth-century migration under Soviet rule.

I forgot to mention earlier, in the Soviet Union, passports listed not only Citizenship (USSR) and Birthplace (Ukrainian SSR), but also "nationality" -

Ukrainian
Russian - Usually the ones who were relocated from the Russian SFSR. Also includes Crimeans.
Tatar
Georgian
Bulgarian
Hungarian
Romanian/Moldavian
Jewish
and the list goes on...

I'm not sure what would have happened when a child was born to parents of mixed nationality.

(02-22-2014 09:28 AM)rastignac Wrote:  Odessa oblast is wild:
Odessa city - primarily native Russian speaking (the red patch on the coast).
Odessa Oblast (especially below Moldova)- Russian, Ukrainain, Albanian, Moldovan/Romanian, Bulgarian, Gagauz - shows the Ottoman diversity jimukr104 talks about.

Also remember that Odessa is a very young city - around 220 years old.

The Russian speakers in Ukraine, that is what you get when you have oppresors for 80 years telling you that ukranian is a peasant language and russians is the only "cultured" lenguage. And do not even think in wearing anything remotely similar to traditional garbs. People had really bad times for less than that during Soviet times. And thanks to that you have russian-speaking ukranians.

Yanukvich has been called off, let's see what happens now.

I don't see why Americans are complaining even if we organized a coup in the Ukraine. If we did, there are obviously US interests at stake there. And even if those interests are only directly affecting some US corporation or something, so what? It will obviously increase their revenues, and that cash that would have been going into the Russian economy will now be trickling into the US economy. It's a win for us.

The news reports are rather confusing but I just read that protesters (maybe revolutionaries would be a better term... but I suppose there is no truly neutral term) took control of the presidential palace.

Feminism, tourism, Russia, America, EU, non of those mean anything to the average person. They want work, food on the table, a descent standard of living.

(02-22-2014 11:08 AM)RexImperator Wrote:  The news reports are rather confusing but I just read that protesters (maybe revolutionaries would be a better term... but I suppose there is no truly neutral term) took control of the presidential palace.

One of the first news articles I read this morning indicated that the president evacuated to Kharkiv.

Demonstrations in Crimea... They're demanding that Crimea be reunited with the Rodina(Motherland). Police are signing up recruits to a 'citizen's patrol'.

If Crimea goes, I think the remaining South and the East will move towards secession. Without Crimea, the electorate will be unbalanced and they'll never have a chance of any representation in Parliament.

(02-22-2014 10:52 AM)MHaes Wrote:  I don't see why Americans are complaining even if we organized a coup in the Ukraine. If we did, there are obviously US interests at stake there. And even if those interests are only directly affecting some US corporation or something, so what? It will obviously increase their revenues, and that cash that would have been going into the Russian economy will now be trickling into the US economy. It's a win for us.

Yes, it's a win for America. Today they added a few million to the number of people who already hated your country. What was previously an internal conflict can now be blamed on Americans and Europeans.

Also remember that when you play with fire, sometimes burnt. If 9/11 isn't a strong enough example, I don't know what is.

This may get a laugh. VY built a palace on previously publicly owned land. It was left unguarded today and open to the public. Apparently Maidan guards are insisting people not walk on the grass. Some kids out. Like a Yanukovichland.



A decent bit of photo-journalism below. (some of the pictures floating around Twitter are fake).

Of note: gold toilet trim, Roman ruins, artificial lake, full-sized Galleon, gold coins with the president's likeness, a golf course with personalized golf clubs, an exotic animal zoo, rare car collection.

http://zyalt.livejournal.com/1007568.html

(02-22-2014 11:21 AM)DjembaDjemba Wrote:  Feminism, tourism, Russia, America, EU, non of those mean anything to the average person. They want work, food on the table, a descent standard of living.

I think it's often the same thing from ancient times up until today. A country can be ruled by a group of elites, but once the masses believe that those elites are only running things in a selfish manner for their own benefit without regard to the common good, trouble is in store. The tipping point usually comes once economic growth severely stagnates.

(02-22-2014 11:21 AM)DjembaDjemba Wrote:  Feminism, tourism, Russia, America, EU, non of those mean anything to the average person. They want work, food on the table, a descent standard of living.

So, can we assume that the South/East of the country don't want those things, since they made up only 7.4% of the 'protestors'?

(02-22-2014 11:51 AM)DaveR Wrote:  

(02-22-2014 11:21 AM)DjembaDjemba Wrote:  Feminism, tourism, Russia, America, EU, non of those mean anything to the average person. They want work, food on the table, a descent standard of living.

So, can we assume that the South/East of the country don't want those things, since they made up only 7.4% of the 'protestors'?

Looks like the south/east region has a higher per capita income, lower unemployment, and is more industrialized than the west. If that is really the case, then they simply don't have as much to protest about.

As Rex mentioned above, people are generally content if they elites share the wealth and put money back into the economy. When it becomes a racket, the guillotines come out.

(02-22-2014 11:46 AM)RexImperator Wrote:  

(02-22-2014 11:21 AM)DjembaDjemba Wrote:  Feminism, tourism, Russia, America, EU, non of those mean anything to the average person. They want work, food on the table, a descent standard of living.

I think it's often the same thing from ancient times up until today. A country can be ruled by a group of elites, but once the masses believe that those elites are only running things in a selfish manner for their own benefit without regard to the common good, trouble is in store. The tipping point usually comes once economic growth severely stagnates.

And today's events will do nothing to change that. The Fatherland party is just as corrupt as the Party of Regions. Tymoshenko is free, the same old hands are back in power - Turchynov, Yatseniuk, Lutsenko. You will now see the wealth flow to a different group of oligarchs - Firtash, Pinchuk, Tymoshenko, etc.

(02-22-2014 12:02 PM)DjembaDjemba Wrote:  Looks like the south/east region has a higher per capita income, lower unemployment, and is more industrialized than the west. If that is really the case, then they simply don't have as much to protest about.

There is a clear split between the North/West of the country and the South/East which has existed in every election since independence. It has nothing to do with economics. Rastignac posted some pretty good analysis about it.

(02-22-2014 08:40 AM)Roosh Wrote:  One of the better combat videos: http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/0...-kiev.html

The police is remarkably restrained.

Let's see how the Maidan treats Tymoshenko.

The western press is acting like it's the second coming of the Virgin Mary. Where the do they get their information. It seems the western propaganda machine is only capable of simple morality plays, good and evil, etc. (They seem to be oscillating... is she good? is she bad?)

I made the mistake of watching PBS "analysis" last night and it was clear that Brooks and Shields had no fucking clue about anything and were happy to have the conversation move on to some Washington politics.

The reason I doubt a lot of the US conspiracy theories is that there are no consistent talking points out there in the media or from the president.

It is excusable that these people are not Ukraine experts, but they seem to lack the ability to use Google or hire staffers to do it.