(02-06-2014 07:00 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  As for Dearborn, from what I've always understood, the Arab community there is pretty well-assimilated and very successful. Some of the most prominent Arab-Americans either live there or grew up there. I remember seeing a Vice clip about how that suburb even thrived during the recession unlike neighboring Detroit.

I grew up about an hour from there. I never heard anything bad besides when 911 happened there was some fear of other Americans hurting them because they were muslim.

Damn. This thread blew up.

Dropped in to see if the world's problems have been solved yet.

No?

Didn't think so.

Carry on.

(02-06-2014 05:32 PM)NY Digital Wrote:  Tax paying immigrants?

Hah. I singlehandedly know 5 different families gaming the system and not reporting their cash based incomes, while getting free rent money. They bitched about having to pay $100 in utilities for the month.

haha! the myth that Illegals dont pay taxes is crazy. Take me as an example. My parents are illegal immigrants from Mexico and my dad owns a home and guess what? He pays property taxes for that home and guess what? When he goes to the store to buy something he pays sales taxes. Its literally impossible to live in the United States without paying taxes.

(02-06-2014 09:38 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

(02-06-2014 07:00 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  As for Dearborn, from what I've always understood, the Arab community there is pretty well-assimilated and very successful. Some of the most prominent Arab-Americans either live there or grew up there. I remember seeing a Vice clip about how that suburb even thrived during the recession unlike neighboring Detroit.

I grew up about an hour from there. I never heard anything bad besides when 911 happened there was some fear of other Americans hurting them because they were muslim.

The Arab community there and around Oakland county is very well established.

Some of them may be the wealthiest citizens with jobs that include small business and employment in specialized fields.

I've been avoiding this thread... but what the fuck!

Whenever I see someone talk about "importing immigrants" I pretty much know that we are just going to disagree about immigration. It's really a complete misunderstanding of the way that immigration works.

Ever notice how all the cab drivers in DC are Ehtiopian or all the line cooks in NY are from Puebla or all the bartenders are Irish? Immigrants form fairly sophisticated networks that pass back information on where work is available and what kind of skills are needed. No one "imports" immigrants. These are generally the most intrepid, forward thinking, hard working people from their home countries coming to take menial jobs in America. that's one of the reasons this country was able to build the economy that it did.

What's funny is that people have been having the same debates for the entire history of this country. The shit people are saying about Mexicans right now, they were saying about Germans 200 years ago and Irish and Italians
150 uears ago. Every generation of immigrants got the stink eye from the assholes who had just gotten there the moment before. It's like the subway. People push their way on and deman that the people inside make room, but soon as they get on they turn around and tell the people behind them, "sorry, car is full."

Immigration is also one of those funny issues where verry conservative people suddenly become economic central planners. They want to decide how many people America ought to have and who deserves what jobs who other people should be able to hire or do business with.

Also, all the talk about immigrants and American decline is bullshit to me. You couldn't pay me enough money to go back in time before 1950. Even with all the money in the world it would be hard to have as much quality if life as I have right now.

According to this week's Economist, Obama has deported more illegal immigrants than any previous American president.

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21...|38521523|

The rate of deportation today is nine times the rate it was 20 years ago.

(02-06-2014 10:49 PM)Mentavious Wrote:  

(02-06-2014 09:38 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

(02-06-2014 07:00 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  As for Dearborn, from what I've always understood, the Arab community there is pretty well-assimilated and very successful. Some of the most prominent Arab-Americans either live there or grew up there. I remember seeing a Vice clip about how that suburb even thrived during the recession unlike neighboring Detroit.

I grew up about an hour from there. I never heard anything bad besides when 911 happened there was some fear of other Americans hurting them because they were muslim.

The Arab community there and around Oakland county is very well established.

Some of them may be the wealthiest citizens with jobs that include small business and employment in specialized fields.

That's what I heard too. I have a relative who owns a shit ton of small businesses (gas stations, liquor stores, etc). He bought a good liquor store around there because the owners were terrified after 9/11 that they would get killed (liquor stores tend to attract bold mf's). He bought it from them for a very good price apparently.

Also, not all the Arabs there are Muslim. The Dearborn area has a large population of Arab Christians as well.

As for this thread, I'm open to changing my mind on any issue but I'm swayed by facts, not emotion. Show me a credible source for your claim and I'll definitely hear you out.

"Culture" and "traditions" is subjective. Personally, I find the most culturally rich and interesting places are typically the more diverse places. In my mind, Brooklyn is the most culturally rich place in America. Its history as a diverse melting pot is precisely why I find it so compellingly American. I always feel good when I'm there.

As for the value of immigrants to "native born" Americans, here are a few borne out from reputable studies.

Immigrants are 30 percent more likely to start a business in the US than non-immigrants, and 18 percent of all small business owners in the United States are immigrants (source: Small Business Administration).

As we all know or should know, small businesses employ more Americans than any other kind of business.

Small businesses owned by immigrants employed an estimated 4.7 million people in 2007, and according to the latest estimates, these small businesses generated more than $776 billion annually (source: Fiscal Policy Institute).

7.5 percent of the foreign born are self-employed compared to 6.6 percent among the native-born (source: Department of Labor).

According to the National Venture Capital Association, immigrants have started 25 percent of public U.S. companies that were backed by venture capital investors. This list includes Google, eBay, Yahoo!, Sun Microsystems, and Intel.

According to the Census Bureau, despite making up only 16 percent of the resident population holding a bachelor’s degree or higher, immigrants represent 33 percent of engineers, 27 percent of mathematicians, statisticians, and computer scientist, and 24 percent of physical scientists. Additionally, according to the Partnership for a New American Economy, in 2011, foreign-born inventors were credited with contributing to more than 75 percent of patents issued to the top 10 patent-producing universities.

Immigrants boost demand for local consumer goods. The Immigration Policy Center estimates that the purchasing power of Latinos and Asians, many of whom are immigrants, alone will reach $1.5 trillion and $775 billion, respectively, by 2015.

Even legal immigrants add a net benefit to social security, while not even being eligible for most services, according to the National Foundation for American Policy.

This shit is nothing new, just some recycled throwback good old fashioned prejudice.

Ben Franklin once worried that German immigration would erode America's British culture. Irish immigrants were considered lazy drunks and their Catholicism threatened the country's protestant order. Speaking of which, we've only had one Catholic president (JFK) and he wound up with a bullet through his head while still in office.

Poles, Italians, Russian Jews were believed to be too different ever to assimilate into American life but they fared well to say the least. Now there's the same BS about immigrants from Latin America and Asia.

This is nothing new. Just a part of the culture. Canada is even more diverse than the US per capita and they seem to be doing fine.

(02-06-2014 11:16 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  Canada is even more diverse than the US per capita and they seem to be doing fine.

Quebec is on the verge of adopting a "charter of values" which basically states that the state is secular (non religious)... so all public workers (hospital, schools, nursery homes) can't wear their religious gear while working in public establishments.



Obviously, they are taking a lot of heat for imposing such a thing.
The public sector is huge, and theres all kinds of equality laws so yes, lots of immigrants in there too. The birth rate is shit also.

As with the other hundred immigration threads, I'll offer the same goddamn anecdote.

I've worked with hundreds of immigrants, many of them illegal. Here's how I'd stereotype them:

They work harder, longer, are more obedient, bring less ego, answer my orders with a "Yes, Sir" or "Si, chef", are happy to work, are more reliable, stay with me for longer periods (less job-hopping). I could go on.

I get involved in their lives sometimes. Sometimes they need a ride or to borrow $20. Sometimes they need advice on buying a car or renting an apartment. I observe plenty. For the most part, they go home and live in cramped quarters with their cousins and shit, never go to the doctor when they're sick, and don't say no to additional work. Most of them work two jobs constituting an 80-100 hour workweek. Maybe they're getting some sort of welfare benefits but I sure as shit don't see it.

What I'd like to hear, from anyone on this forum, is what is wrong with that scenario, and what should be done about it? Some guys have talked about how "immigrants do the same job for less pay" as if that's a bad thing. Well, I'm here to tell you that I did the exact same thing. My first job out of cooking school paid $9 and I took it, and I spent years making $11-$13 per hour doing jobs that many others my age wouldn't take. That's called "putting in your dues", and even though these days I almost always have available work, I'm not exactly getting white kids knocking down my door looking for a paycheck, and neither are my industry peers. When I do get white kids looking for work, they want $15+ per hour plus benefits and weekends off, so I tell them to take a fucking hike.

I know all I ever talk about is my industry, but that's what I know, and I refuse to believe that my industry is unique in this scenario. I can well imagine this being the case in other industries as well.

And fyi, in the span of about 3 years, I went from making $12/hr, to $15/hr, to over $100k. 10 years of toil in some tough fucking jobs and then one day the clouds parted and there's a light at the end of the tunnel and I jumped right in. But I wouldn't have gotten the $100k+ situation if I hadn't put in the 10 years of horseshit, and I'm afraid that's a concept that's being lost on most young people these days.

And to address the original topic:
I can go to many, many international cities and be understood in English. I have met people abroad who were extremely appreciative that I made efforts to learn their language, whether Spanish, French, Italian, and they still insisted on attempting to speak English with me. Maybe I've been lucky.

So if I can travel the world, and go to dozens of countries where English is spoken and I am well accommodated, then who in their right mind gives a shit if Coke wants to play an ad in my country that's multi-lingual? The uproar over that is an ugly reminder of just how grossly over-privileged Americans can be sometimes.

What about their kids?

I live in California. 1st gen Mexicans are some of my favorite people. But their kids are total assholes.
This is all anecdotal, but that's the trend I've noticed. They get classified as "native born" because they were born here.

Sounds like America is ruining immigrants much more than immigrants are ruining America.

(02-06-2014 11:42 PM)j r Wrote:  Sounds like America is ruining immigrants much more than immigrants are ruining America.

This makes absolute zero sense.

We have no obligation to help illegals.

They're called illegal for a reason.

Also, no one is forcing them to come here, that's why they left their country...

(02-06-2014 11:54 PM)NY Digital Wrote:  

(02-06-2014 11:42 PM)j r Wrote:  Sounds like America is ruining immigrants much more than immigrants are ruining America.

This makes absolute zero sense.

We have no obligation to help illegals.

They're called illegal for a reason.

Also, no one is forcing them to come here, that's why they left their country...

Lighten up, Francis. It was a joke based on the post above.

(02-06-2014 11:35 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  Most of them work two jobs constituting an 80-100 hour workweek. Maybe they're getting some sort of welfare benefits but I sure as shit don't see it.

Yeah I don't see it either. I've never met any illegals who said they collect welfare checks and I know lots since Im Hispanic myself. Most illegals I know are either working in construction or mowing lawns. How is it that they collect welfare checks but at the same time are working for minimum pay? Which is it going to be media?

(02-06-2014 11:30 PM)FrenchCanadian Wrote:  

(02-06-2014 11:16 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  Canada is even more diverse than the US per capita and they seem to be doing fine.

Quebec is on the verge of adopting a "charter of values" which basically states that the state is secular (non religious)... so all public workers (hospital, schools, nursery homes) can't wear their religious gear while working in public establishments.



Obviously, they are taking a lot of heat for imposing such a thing.
The public sector is huge, and theres all kinds of equality laws so yes, lots of immigrants in there too. The birth rate is shit also.

Yeah. Quebec is unique. That province has a history of defiance, almost seceding from Canada in the 90s. Their language laws cost Montreal its status as the economic capital of Canada, losing out to Toronto ever since and the gap has only continued to widen.

As for this charter of values thing, I have a hard time seeing it succeed. Too many powerful interests are now organizing against it (Jewish groups, business leaders, etc). I don't think it will muster the necessary support in the end.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/...arter.html

While the arguments on this thread go back and forth between immigration as a policy and illegal immigrants--lets be clear illegal immigrants cost US taxpayers.

The Feb 2011 report "The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on US Taxpayers" from the Federation for American Immigration Reform "estimates the annual costs of illegal immigration at the federal, state and local level to be about $113 billion; nearly $29 billion at the federal level and $84 billion at the state and local level. The study also estimates tax collections from illegal alien workers, both those in the above-ground economy and those in the underground economy. Those receipts [apx $13 billion] do not come close to the level of expenditures..." Source

From the Heritage foundation

In 2010, the average unlawful immigrant household received around $24,721 in government benefits and services while paying some $10,334 in taxes. This generated an average annual fiscal deficit (benefits received minus taxes paid) of around $14,387 per household. This cost had to be borne by U.S. taxpayers.

(02-07-2014 12:10 AM)Flavius Aetius Wrote:  illegal immigrants cost money.

The Feb 2011 report "The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on US Taxpayers" from the Federation for American Immigration Reform "estimates the annual costs of illegal immigration at the federal, state and local level to be about $113 billion; nearly $29 billion at the federal level and $84 billion at the state and local level. The study also estimates tax collections from illegal alien workers, both those in the above-ground economy and those in the underground economy. Those receipts [apx $13 billion] do not come close to the level of expenditures..." Source

From the Heritage foundation

In 2010, the average unlawful immigrant household received around $24,721 in government benefits and services while paying some $10,334 in taxes. This generated an average annual fiscal deficit (benefits received minus taxes paid) of around $14,387 per household. This cost had to be borne by U.S. taxpayers.

Well, you take the bad with the good. Who on this board is going to spearhead a flawless, perfectly managed immigration policy? Anyone?

Meanwhile, obesity costs America $190 billion, and there's zero benefit to any of that. Let's keep things in perspective.

That FAIR study is based on dubious numbers and poor methodology. They basically add up the costs of government services that get consumed by immigrants and their American-born children without adequately taking into account the NPV of what those people will be paying on taxes. It also doesn't take into account all the other non-tax economic benefits of immigrants, like the fact that they consume the goods and services of domestic companies.

Ugh...obesity..gross lol

In addition to FAIR, the Heritage Foundation is a deeply biased conservative think-tank. The sources in my post (few posts above) are from nonpartisan, independent think thanks as well as government agencies (even FAIR and Heritage use government data in reporting certain statistics).

I'll say this, you don't have to have a "reason" for not liking immigrants, legal or illegal. Whatever happened to just hating someone? Why can't Americans be like Russians and just hate people because they're different? PC police?

Anyone is free to hate in my book. I won't judge you. Just don't obscure facts. Say you hate this group because they smell bad or their accents are terrible, etc.

(02-07-2014 12:39 AM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  Anyone is free to hate in my book. I won't judge you. Just don't obscure facts. Say you hate this group because they smell bad or their accents are terrible, etc.

All riiight! Now we're talking!

As much as I love my little brown people, I can't fucking stand them in traffic. Can't tell you how many times I get stuck behind some 4' 10" Guatemalan grandma that can barely see over the steering wheel in her 1990 Plymouth Voyager. At least in my neighborhood.

And then you got your Korean rich bitches flying through traffic in a Lincoln Navigator who can't see shit in their peripheral vision so they can't even stay in their goddamn lanes. They're the reason I stopped riding my bike to work, at least when I lived in Koreatown.

And then you get your...ah shit thread derail.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

I've been watching the old TV show "Lou Grant," which was a first-rate drama about a newspaper reporters and editors. It covered a lot of topical issues of its day.

On Feb. 5, 1979, they broadcast an episode called "Sweep" about illegals. If you go to the 25 minute and 44 minute marks, they're having a debate that's almost identical to some of the ones on this thread: big business wants cheap labor, who was here first.

This was 35 years ago. I suspect 35 years from now people will be arguing about the same things.

I think very few people actually hate immigrants or people of other races or ethnicities. Most people just prefer to live in racially homogenous areas surrounding by people who look, speak and behave like themselves. Every race and ethnicity has this preference, although there is also a tendency for non-whites to leave their ethnic enclaves and seek out the safety and prosperity of white neighborhoods if they have the means to do so. However, the reverse is not true. Non-whites are quick to see the advantages of living among whites, but whites almost never prefer to live among non-whites. On a micro-scale, this means that as white neighborhoods gradually gain color, white flight begins to increase, accelerating the coloring trend of the demographics. On a macro-scale, this preference of non-whites for colonizing white areas is seen in immigration, both legal and illegal. You don't see Mexico complaining about the flood of Americans across its border, Muslim countries complaining about hordes of European immigrants, or Australians launching boats for greener pastures. It's always the opposite. The flow of immigration is always non-whites into wealthy white countries. And obviously this is logical. Why wouldn't they want to come here? The point is: why should we let them? What do we gain from it? If these people can't build their own prosperous societies, why do we want them in ours?

If I were black I would want to be around other black people, if I were Mexican I would want to be around Mexican people, if I were Chinese I would want to be around Chinese people. I'm white so I prefer to be around white people. Is that racist? I really don't care. Because the vast majority of people agree with that sentiment, and if they say otherwise they're lying. I wonder what percentage of the liberal whites and Jews working at progressive think tanks in DC live outside of NW or the suburbs? Somehow I doubt the vast majority of them extend the love of diversity they champion as public policy into their personal lives. Total hypocrites.