Post: #1

A brief background first: I live in the UK, I'm 25 and I graduated from university in 2011 and have been unemployed since. I have been accepted to study a masters in finance at IE university in Madrid for one year.

I have been having serious doubts about my masters. In taking this path, I will have to pay 30,000 euros in fees, around 800 euros per month (9600 euros per 12 months) in rent and around 600 euros per month (7200 per 12 months) in living expenses, that's 46,8000 euros over the next 12 months. I have been doing a lot of reading about investing and starting a business, and feel that my dream lies in becoming financially independent via starting a business to earn income and investing a portion of that income on a continual basis.

I have been applying to jobs for two years with no success, I must say, If I walk away from this masters I will feel afraid, I will lose the security feeling of having a clear-cut path of studying for a year with the likely possibility of finding a job in a corporation. Also I have come so far (spanish course starts next week and masters next month) and have already booked my flight to spain (300 pounds), paid 7,200 euros up front in fees so that's already 7,300 pounds total paid for courtesy of my dad, I will look indecisive and will feel embarrassed if I go back on my decision.

At this stage the beta lifestyle has become so clear to me and identifying it so easy. Working as a slave in a corporation and being stripped of my time and energy (to pursue dreams) is something very clear to me and a trap I would like to avoid.

So in conclusion I would like to seek your advice,
first some quick facts:

- been unemployed two years
- relying on dad and benefits and casual retail work for two years as income
- complete loss of dignity and fulfilment and flexibility as I have to live with my parents
- masters already applied for and accepted
- no clear plan to start a business
- very little capital and savings (around a third of my assets are tied in index-tracking mutual funds)
- starting to develop strong doubts about the master
- possess a strong fear of walking away from the masters
- Strongly dislike life in the UK, UK girls, and UK culture, and If I pass on the masters I would have to live (albeit for the time being) in the UK

So do you think I should pursue the masters? use that as a launch pad to land a job from which I can gain experience and save money (to be used for capital) ? or start fresh and focus on starting a business?

Your reply is much appreciated

Post: #2

Your post doesn't make that much sense to be honest.

There is absolutely no need to spend 46,800 euros (~62,000 USD) to go to Spain and do a masters program if your goal is to start your own business and invest money on the side.

If you think getting a corporate job = beta, then this masters is probably not the right fit for you because the point of the masters is to get you a corporate job.

How are the school's placement statistics? If they are good, I would do the masters and get a corporate job. You can always start your business later if you can't think of anything now.

Post: #3

I say go for the masters for now. For one, it gets you out of the UK. In addition, you go to spain, and who knows from there? You don't know what this new step would have in store for you. Maybe you'll meet a potential investor in your future company. I imagine the UK will be more of the same if you stay. I understand the desire to not be a corporate drone, but there are plenty of guys living in mom's basement who aren't working for "the man" either, so there's the other side of the coin. You need to get your shit together first, and that means you might have to deal with some BS on the front end. Life's a lot of work and dealing with BS regardless of who you are or what position of power you are in. For the vast majority of human history this concept of a "dream job" didn't even exist as day-to-day life was arduous enough. Plus, there are two words in dream job and one of them is still "job". Even financially independent guys still deal with BS from customers (just a different type of boss really). Just my two cents.

PS who says you can't work on a business while in school?

Post: #4

I don't believe a corporate job = beta, staying in a corporate job you hate for 50 years = beta.

If I do the masters then I'll use it to secure a good (for connections, pay and experience) corporate job to progress on to my goals.

(08-04-2013 11:59 PM)speeddemon Wrote:  Your post doesn't make that much sense to be honest.

There is absolutely no need to spend 46,800 euros (~62,000 USD) to go to Spain and do a masters program if your goal is to start your own business and invest money on the side.

If you think getting a corporate job = beta, then this masters is probably not the right fit for you because the point of the masters is to get you a corporate job.

How are the school's placement statistics? If they are good, I would do the masters and get a corporate job. You can always start your business later if you can't think of anything now.

Post: #5

(08-05-2013 12:05 AM)nek Wrote:  For one, it gets you out of the UK. In addition, you go to spain, and who knows from there?

duly noted.

(08-05-2013 12:05 AM)nek Wrote:  PS who says you can't work on a business while in school?

great point.

Post: #6

(08-05-2013 12:56 AM)Omsy Wrote:  I don't believe a corporate job = beta, staying in a corporate job you hate for 50 years = beta.

If I do the masters then I'll use it to secure a good (for connections, pay and experience) corporate job to progress on to my goals.

Fair enough.

How are the placement stats for your school? That is the most important thing when making this decision (especially if your dad is paying for it)

Post: #7

You should probably consult Captain Capitalism on what route you should take. He has a couple of books on this subject and also worked in finance.

My take is to get the stupid job, any means necessary. Work it for three or four years to get enough capital and pay back your debts and Dad. Use your spare time to figure out your business. It's a little presumptuous to call a corporate job 'beta and life-draining' when you've had two unemployed years to chase your dreams and have made no progress on it.

Post: #8

Take a look at the job placement of the schools graduates. School is an investment; high cost for what should be high reward. If students with good grades aren't getting decent jobs after the program then don't touch it with a ten foot pole.

Starting a business requires bravery and determination, not a graduate degree. If you plan on avoiding working corporate jobs I would seriously reconsider the decision to go back to school. Use that money as capital to start your business instead.

Ultimately do whatever would make you feel happiest. If you want to dive into entrepreneurship ASAP then do so. If you really aren't sure what you want to do but are 100% sure that this degree and some time in another country will lift your spirits and better your job prospects then it's time to boot up pimsleur and get to work.

Post: #9

I like Hades advice. No shame in consulting people. Also, the placement stats is HUGE! You're picking Spain, but I doubt you know any stats for placement and average salary of graduates at that one college. You're about to move to spain and have no idea what the average outcome of people who make the same decision as you is... I wish I knew about average salaries and strength of alumni networks before going to college.... Oursource it, no shame in it, after all you're spending thousands of dollars anyway. Pay an expert to break down the stats and PICK the best college for you (assuming you cant do this yourself over 1 weekend).

Do your research, and if you go to a school and start having doubts, MAKE A CHANGE RIGHT AWAY. Dont fuck around spending thousands of dollars a year. Your 25 years old, instead of having 20 years to climb the ladder you essentially now only have 15 years to climb the ladder. 5 years is a LONG TIME!!! You've lost out on 5 years already.

As for being an entrepreneur, Read "The $100 Startup" by Chris Gilbeau as well as "The Millionaire Fastlane" by MJ DeMarco. There are tons of books I can recommend but those 2 will suffice, basically lots of entrepreneurs and VC's are recommending starting a side hustle WHILE you already have a job. Steady income + start your business. If you cant find a few hours a week to run a business then you clearly wont be able to manage it going in full time. You're obviously on the fence about this. REading those books will help you make the decision. I personally am going the "start a business while you have a full time job" route.

I am in the exact same situation as you, literally the exact same. Even same age, except I know going for my Masters is a waste of time. You are fortunate that your dad has your back and you arent supporting yourself, but it probably also provides a security blanket that allows you to fuck around. If you're paying your own bills its "do or die," you dont fuck around being jobless or small stints. When you pay your own bills you're 100% employed and working on increasing earning power. Ive learned this recently (unfortunately) and lost out on at least 4 years of experience, earning power, and ladder climbing that I could have had. Moving out of my moms was the best decision I ever made. The minute I moved back in, I realized how much moving out positively impacted my life.

Right now youre in no position to start a business. You're not bankable, you clearly cant get and/or maintain a job. And you have limited experience (possibly overrated) running a business or working for one. And its very possibly you cannot function yet outside of your parents safety net. The reality is you probably have to work AT LEAST 3-5 years before you can reasonably start a business. Many businesses take at least 2-3 years to become profitable enough to support yourself full time. And like any entrepreneur starting a business your first question is, "what can i do RIGHT NOW that has an immediate impact on the bottom line." (by bottom line I mean your life)

Maybe going to college will put you on the fast track to earning the money, experience, and stability + freedom you need to start a business. Maybe eating shit at a job you dont want to do but with a clear career path is the way to go. Maybe applying to 1000 jobs till you DO get a decent job will do it... I cant tell you, you have to decide for yourself. You have no clear plan of action and I think part of it is TOO many choices. You have TOO many choices because being forced to make choices isnt one of them... you have this HUGE safety net that protects you from making choices.

My humble advice: Move out and support yourself 100%. Get a job to do this. After 2-3 months living on minimum wage you'll FIND A WAY to get ahead, better pay, better job, better title, whatever. Youll make it happen. Hell, if you cant manage that how the hell do you expect to start and run a successful business that will support yourself?

Post: #10

Why would you have to live in the UK if you drop out of the masters? So you can stay on the dole?

You should be able to get a working holiday visa for Australia or Canada. Get your first professional experience there, if you have to. The job market will be more accessible.

Are the university fees refundable under any kind of circumstances? Sometimes what you need to make a decision is more complete information. Once you have all the information, the right decision is obvious.

So with the masters course, there are three options I can see
1) Withdraw now, or during the language course - before you begin the masters
2) Do the first semester and then drop out at the end of this year - tell your family it didn't meet expectations
3) Complete the course

Ask for information from the university to put some more detail on what happens if you choose (1) or (2).

I strongly disagree with some of the assumptions made. Job = slavery and all that.

I actually think that will be one of the biggest blind spots for today's 20-something generation. All this brainless shit that you see repeated on the internet, like:
- property is a poor investment
- the stock market is rigged, don't invest in it
- working for a corporation is a bad choice in life

It's all wrong advice, and should be ignored.

Post: #11

(08-05-2013 02:32 AM)speeddemon Wrote:  How are the placement stats for your school? That is the most important thing when making this decision (especially if your dad is paying for it)

According to the placement report issued by the university, 96% of graduates found within three months of graduating

Post: #12

(08-05-2013 03:42 AM)Lufty Wrote:  Take a look at the job placement of the schools graduates. School is an investment; high cost for what should be high reward. If students with good grades aren't getting decent jobs after the program then don't touch it with a ten foot pole.

Starting a business requires bravery and determination, not a graduate degree. If you plan on avoiding working corporate jobs I would seriously reconsider the decision to go back to school. Use that money as capital to start your business instead.

Ultimately do whatever would make you feel happiest. If you want to dive into entrepreneurship ASAP then do so. If you really aren't sure what you want to do but are 100% sure that this degree and some time in another country will lift your spirits and better your job prospects then it's time to boot up pimsleur and get to work.

The problem is, I've been unemployed in the UK for two years, I feel uninspired and de-motivated living with my parents (as a financial burden) and living in the UK. To me, this is a chance to live for a year in Spain, learn Spanish, and study finance at a top European school. Throughout this year I aim to take positive steps in realising (practically) my goals.

I feel that if I ditch the masters and return to the UK, I'll burn out quickly and regret not moving to Spain. I've been applying to investment banks and asset management companies diligently but it won't click. It's been only recently since I've started discerning the concept of financial freedom, practical (intelligent) investment, and business start ups.

The way I see it, if I go back to the UK, then I'd apply to any kind of job to get income in, while researching and planning my journey to starting a business and actively investing. However, I've truly lost my desire and spirit living in England, I'm tired of living with parents, and idea generation becomes so hard in such an environment.

Post: #13

(08-05-2013 04:29 AM)defguy Wrote:  except I know going for my Masters is a waste of time.

So you suggest ditching the masters, finding any job asap, and taking it from there? until I build a capable enough system to become flexible, and leave the UK? while relaizing my dream of financial freedom?

Post: #14

(08-05-2013 04:29 AM)defguy Wrote:  Pay an expert to break down the stats

Can you guide me to the relevant places for this?

Post: #15

Linkedin is pretty good for placement stats. Find somebody who went to this school, click on the school link from his profile and see where the graduates work, which countries they move to, etc.

Post: #16

(08-05-2013 07:03 PM)Omsy Wrote:  The problem is, I've been unemployed in the UK for two years, I feel uninspired and de-motivated living with my parents (as a financial burden) and living in the UK. To me, this is a chance to live for a year in Spain, learn Spanish, and study finance at a top European school. Throughout this year I aim to take positive steps in realising (practically) my goals.

I feel that if I ditch the masters and return to the UK, I'll burn out quickly and regret not moving to Spain. I've been applying to investment banks and asset management companies diligently but it won't click. It's been only recently since I've started discerning the concept of financial freedom, practical (intelligent) investment, and business start ups.

The way I see it, if I go back to the UK, then I'd apply to any kind of job to get income in, while researching and planning my journey to starting a business and actively investing. However, I've truly lost my desire and spirit living in England, I'm tired of living with parents, and idea generation becomes so hard in such an environment.

It sounds like you have made your choice. If it is a top school in Europe and the job market is such that people are getting jobs out of the school, then it's time for you to dive in.

Post: #17

I've been in spain (madrid) for nearly a week now, and I am close to the edge of dropping out. I've been bleeding cash ever since I arrived and deeply feel like my heart isn't into a master of finance (I can continue my cfa study). Living as a student while half-heartedly studying is so different to my trips to belgrade, budapest etc

I'm thinking of heading back to my parents place and applying to jobs in investment more aggressively and strategically while focusing on business ideas/education and picking up other skills. I can then also study for the cfa level 2 at home.

Never felt such a strong negative gut feeling about something. 50k from my parents for a masters seems like an unwise option. So far the kids I've met on the spanish course at the university are all rich and to them, money doesn't seem like a problem. In fact they are just studying because they don't know what they want and want to blow some time.

Post: #18

1. Why did you pick this particular school and program? (Its a private school, hence very expensive)

2. Do you speak Spanish? (getting a job in Spain pretty much requires this)

3. What are the job prospects in Madrid/Spain after graduating? (Spain's economy is completely fu**ed right now, with nearly 25% unemployment among people under 25)

In my opinion, this has a high chance of failing. A better option would be to hustle at home, pick up new skills, learn a new language with the intention of moving to a new country that has good work opportunities (French/German/Spanish) and then apply next year for a Masters (or wait 2 years and then go for an MBA).

Post: #19

Why don't you consider another cheap universities/countries? There's no guarentee that you will find a job when you go back to the UK. You can't just waste another year. If you really worry about the money that your parents spend on you why don't you consider going to cheaper universities in Europe? There are way cheaper programs in Germany, France, Sweden or Italy..

Post: #20

(08-16-2013 03:45 AM)capote Wrote:  1. Why did you pick this particular school and program? (Its a private school, hence very expensive)

2. Do you speak Spanish? (getting a job in Spain pretty much requires this)

3. What are the job prospects in Madrid/Spain after graduating? (Spain's economy is completely fu**ed right now, with nearly 25% unemployment among people under 25)

In my opinion, this has a high chance of failing. A better option would be to hustle at home, pick up new skills, learn a new language with the intention of moving to a new country that has good work opportunities (French/German/Spanish) and then apply next year for a Masters (or wait 2 years and then go for an MBA).

I'd like to know the answers to these questions too.

Seems like you're already fairly 'pot committed' here though, or at least pretty close to it, so I dunno, pulling out now doesn't make a lot of sense. The program is only 12 months, you don't have that much longer to go really. If you're already in for over 8,000 quid I think you just buck up and stay the course given you've already spent over 1/5 of the total costs and it's gone. It's not like 10 months is going to make or break you, and the Master's will look good no matter what. Try to take some entrepreneurial finance courses there if you can.

Do u need to repay your Dad or are you just worried about him spending the money?? The job market in Spain is abysmal, the UK is better but still the financial services industry is a mess in London, so I'm wondering what your endgame strategy was here in the first place...seems like it was just to get out of the UK and do something different, as opposed to targeting a subset of schools that would get you a good job.

Edit: just read this:

Quote:According to the placement report issued by the university, 96% of graduates found within three months of graduating

so if that's the case yeah you better f*cking finish school, get a job and make your dad proud young man!!!

tl; dr SUCK IT UP, just do the work and stop complaining/reconsidering

Post: #21

(08-16-2013 06:47 AM)Akula Wrote:  

(08-16-2013 03:45 AM)capote Wrote:  1. Why did you pick this particular school and program? (Its a private school, hence very expensive)

2. Do you speak Spanish? (getting a job in Spain pretty much requires this)

3. What are the job prospects in Madrid/Spain after graduating? (Spain's economy is completely fu**ed right now, with nearly 25% unemployment among people under 25)

In my opinion, this has a high chance of failing. A better option would be to hustle at home, pick up new skills, learn a new language with the intention of moving to a new country that has good work opportunities (French/German/Spanish) and then apply next year for a Masters (or wait 2 years and then go for an MBA).

I'd like to know the answers to these questions too.

Seems like you're already fairly 'pot committed' here though, or at least pretty close to it, so I dunno, pulling out now doesn't make a lot of sense. The program is only 12 months, you don't have that much longer to go really. If you're already in for over 8,000 quid I think you just buck up and stay the course given you've already spent over 1/5 of the total costs and it's gone. It's not like 10 months is going to make or break you, and the Master's will look good no matter what. Try to take some entrepreneurial finance courses there if you can.

Do u need to repay your Dad or are you just worried about him spending the money?? The job market in Spain is abysmal, the UK is better but still the financial services industry is a mess in London, so I'm wondering what your endgame strategy was here in the first place...seems like it was just to get out of the UK and do something different, as opposed to targeting a subset of schools that would get you a good job.

Edit: just read this:

Quote:According to the placement report issued by the university, 96% of graduates found within three months of graduating

so if that's the case yeah you better f*cking finish school, get a job and make your dad proud young man!!!

tl; dr:

SUCK IT UP, just do the work and stop complaining/reconsidering - too late for that. It's a tough world out there and people have way worse problems than this, so count yourself lucky your parents are paying for you to attend this master's program

Post: #22

(08-16-2013 06:52 AM)Akula Wrote:  

(08-16-2013 06:47 AM)Akula Wrote:  

(08-16-2013 03:45 AM)capote Wrote:  1. Why did you pick this particular school and program? (Its a private school, hence very expensive)

2. Do you speak Spanish? (getting a job in Spain pretty much requires this)

3. What are the job prospects in Madrid/Spain after graduating? (Spain's economy is completely fu**ed right now, with nearly 25% unemployment among people under 25)

In my opinion, this has a high chance of failing. A better option would be to hustle at home, pick up new skills, learn a new language with the intention of moving to a new country that has good work opportunities (French/German/Spanish) and then apply next year for a Masters (or wait 2 years and then go for an MBA).

I'd like to know the answers to these questions too.

Seems like you're already fairly 'pot committed' here though, or at least pretty close to it, so I dunno, pulling out now doesn't make a lot of sense. The program is only 12 months, you don't have that much longer to go really. If you're already in for over 8,000 quid I think you just buck up and stay the course given you've already spent over 1/5 of the total costs and it's gone. It's not like 10 months is going to make or break you, and the Master's will look good no matter what. Try to take some entrepreneurial finance courses there if you can.

Do u need to repay your Dad or are you just worried about him spending the money?? The job market in Spain is abysmal, the UK is better but still the financial services industry is a mess in London, so I'm wondering what your endgame strategy was here in the first place...seems like it was just to get out of the UK and do something different, as opposed to targeting a subset of schools that would get you a good job.

Edit: just read this:

Quote:According to the placement report issued by the university, 96% of graduates found within three months of graduating

so if that's the case yeah you better f*cking finish school, get a job and make your dad proud young man!!!

tl; dr:
SUCK IT UP, just do the work and stop complaining/reconsidering - too late for that. It's a tough world out there and people have way worse problems than this, so count yourself lucky your parents are paying for you to attend this master's program

Post: #23

Judgin from your first post and the fact that you're ready to drop out after a week, I'm guessing that your problems go deeper than just deciding whether to do a masters or not.

You need to dig down and figure out what's making you so emo. Some people use secisions as an excuse to put off doing anything. You may be one of those people. Fix it now before you do anything else. Once you're coming from a place of relative inner peace, the decisions become easier.

Post: #24

(08-16-2013 06:52 AM)Akula Wrote:  

(08-16-2013 06:47 AM)Akula Wrote:  

(08-16-2013 03:45 AM)capote Wrote:  1. Why did you pick this particular school and program? (Its a private school, hence very expensive)

2. Do you speak Spanish? (getting a job in Spain pretty much requires this)

3. What are the job prospects in Madrid/Spain after graduating? (Spain's economy is completely fu**ed right now, with nearly 25% unemployment among people under 25)

In my opinion, this has a high chance of failing. A better option would be to hustle at home, pick up new skills, learn a new language with the intention of moving to a new country that has good work opportunities (French/German/Spanish) and then apply next year for a Masters (or wait 2 years and then go for an MBA).

I'd like to know the answers to these questions too.

Seems like you're already fairly 'pot committed' here though, or at least pretty close to it, so I dunno, pulling out now doesn't make a lot of sense. The program is only 12 months, you don't have that much longer to go really. If you're already in for over 8,000 quid I think you just buck up and stay the course given you've already spent over 1/5 of the total costs and it's gone. It's not like 10 months is going to make or break you, and the Master's will look good no matter what. Try to take some entrepreneurial finance courses there if you can.

Do u need to repay your Dad or are you just worried about him spending the money?? The job market in Spain is abysmal, the UK is better but still the financial services industry is a mess in London, so I'm wondering what your endgame strategy was here in the first place...seems like it was just to get out of the UK and do something different, as opposed to targeting a subset of schools that would get you a good job.

Edit: just read this:

Quote:According to the placement report issued by the university, 96% of graduates found within three months of graduating

so if that's the case yeah you better f*cking finish school, get a job and make your dad proud young man!!!

tl; dr:

SUCK IT UP, just do the work and stop complaining/reconsidering - too late for that. It's a tough world out there and people have way worse problems than this, so count yourself lucky your parents are paying for you to attend this master's program

Let's say you go gambling to a casino with 40 grand of borrowed money. You lose 8k in the first few rounds. Would you continue to gamble the rest with the hopes of winning?

If you are smart, your answer would depend on the odds of winning AND on how much a loss would hurt you (financially, emotionally etc..).

If he isn't sure whether to do the Masters or not, can't speak Spanish and doesn't have prior work experience/internships in Finance, those are not good odds. He's pretty much going to end up in that 4% group.

To the OP: If the deposit you paid to the Uni is non-refundable, consider treating it as a sunk cost and move on (unless you are fully motivated to do the program against all odds)

As someone else posted, there are plenty of good quality Masters programs in other European countries (France, Germany, Finland) where the tuition is MUCH cheaper (or even free). The average cost of an international masters program in EU is around 5k EUR for Europeans. In some cases, it could be lesser than 1k for the entire program. Makes much more sense to go for these options given your scenario.

Post: #25

Quote:According to the placement report issued by the university, 96% of graduates found within three months of graduating

I'm pretty sure that's a distorted number. American colleges cite high statistics like that even if the grad went to work at Walmart.