Post: #51

(11-13-2018 09:30 PM)CleanSlate Wrote:  I intend to have kids in my early-mid 40s (I’m 39), but hopefully be done with 2 kids by the time I turn 45.

My dad was 44 when he had me. It didn’t really hurt my childhood but I had a sister and other kids with whom I could play in my neighborhood.

One argument I can think of against waiting too long (other than energy levels), is you’ll wish you had more time when you’re close to dying because your kids might not yet be married or have their own kids.

I’m sure I will come across the problems that come with having kids in my 40s, but what can I do other than take good care of myself? Having a girl 15 years younger than myself should also help, not only with energy levels but also reducing birth risks.

I can push back on this argument .
You might get kids early, then die early in car accident or due to cancer
You might get kids late, and you live forever .

Post: #52

(11-13-2018 08:06 PM)doc holliday Wrote:  ^ Overwhelming majority of guys aged 55 are not going to be anything remotely close to this mythical man that your describing here. The 46 yr old in your example would be 49 when his son becomes an adult with a whole lot of life left to live and will be able to thoroughly enjoy his adult children and eventual grandkids while pursuing lifestyle things that he put on hold for his family. Leonard is 110% correct in what he has written, it is no joke raising small children when you're 30, let alone trying to do it in your 40s. Anyone who discounts this has clearly never raised children. One thing I see with the majority of dudes that have kids when they're older is that they will usually end up having just one kid since they're too old to have anymore, which to me is a total fucking joke. The one kid gets to grow up without any siblings and is stuck all by himself after his parents die. He also gets the privilege of taking care of his aging parents all by himself when he gets into his late 20s. Older people having kids, men and women both, is a complete disaster and is one of the reasons Western civilization is destroying itself. The male hamster is just as strong and stupid as the female one.

I don't consider that a mythical figure. I think it's just a result of very simple choices. I didn't mention huge riches, just things most people in the west are capable of doing.
Living abroad is not that difficult for someone in the west, unless you're waiting for "the perfect opportunity".
Learning languages can be done for free, there are even threads on that on this forum.
Playing sports professionally - ok you need skill and work ethic for that or just great genetics and luck. But you'll always be able to play competitively / with a competitive mindset and dedication to the game, regardless of your natural talent.
Working out at 55 - really just a choice, provided you're not ill.


As for the low birthrates. I think multiple factors play a role and divorce is surely one of them. If I have a child and get a divorce, I'm most-likely not going to go through that same agony again.
In western culture, men and women both know that things probably won't work out anyway. Divorce rates are between 40 and 60%. No matter how you act as a man, whether you're the ultimate alpha or submissive to the point of letting your wife sleep with other men, there's still only a 50% chance things can work. In muslim countries the likelihood of you staying together, regardless of how you treat your wife, is above 99%. In some the divorce rates are at 0,07% or less and that wont change anytine soon. The west will never be able to compete with that.

Almost every friend I have grew up wanting to get married and have kids. But then when discovering the "true nature of women" and being confronted with thecold hard facts of divorce or breakups while having a kid, they shifted their focus to other things or simply doubted that they could find an adequate partner. And they're not alone, there are tons of threads on internet forums discussing where and how to find "good women".

To me, men are like horses. Give them a clear path and they'll work until they collapse. Most western men would take this offer from a woman: "Work. Take care of the housework. Please me sexually. And I promise that we'll have 2 kids and I'll never leave you."

But the reality is there is no clear path. If I earn a shitload of money, will she stay with me? Hm not sure, maybe. If I'm a famous athlete, actor or rapper, will she stay with me? Hm not sure, maybe. If I work hard, fuck her well, massage her every single morning and night, will she stay with me? Hm not sure, maybe.

Post: #53

(11-13-2018 09:30 PM)CleanSlate Wrote:  I intend to have kids in my early-mid 40s (I’m 39), but hopefully be done with 2 kids by the time I turn 45.

My dad was 44 when he had me. It didn’t really hurt my childhood but I had a sister and other kids with whom I could play in my neighborhood.

One argument I can think of against waiting too long (other than energy levels), is you’ll wish you had more time when you’re close to dying because your kids might not yet be married or have their own kids.

I’m sure I will come across the problems that come with having kids in my 40s, but what can I do other than take good care of myself? Having a girl 15 years younger than myself should also help, not only with energy levels but also reducing birth risks.

I think about that all the time. God willing I make it to my genetic limit - which seems to be 88 based on ancestors - I should hope to see my grandkids through most of their formative years.

Post: #54

droughtmeat, you have no idea the toll aging takes on you as you get into your 50s. I'm 50, I work out, eat right, have a flat stomach with a nice body and I'll tell you what, you couldn't pay me to have small children at my age. There's no way in hell I could handle it and thank god my kids are just about all grown up. Now I know guys around my age that do and I see how difficult it is for them, how tired they get chasing their kids around, driving them to their activities and so on. It is a full time, stressful job that you have to do after a full day of work and 50-some year olds are not physically meant to have small kids anymore than older women are. It's a young man's sport. Now if you find yourself older and are going to have kids like Clean Slate, well that's fine as long as you understand what you're getting into and not have this naive attitude that it'll be all roses and sunshine. I honestly believe that one has to figure out if they want kids by their late 20s and get started by their early 30s. Too many guys and girls haven't figured out jack by their 30s when they have had a full decade plus to work on themselves and are now wanting to put off starting families until they are in their 40s. No one grows up until their 40s anymore it seems.

Post: #55

Agree with quaker13, based on an experience. In a solidly middle class setting at least, count on mostly seeing parents 35-55 when your kid starts school. If your wife had your kid at 20, she might be 10 years younger than everyone else there.

Post: #56

@doc holiday I agree with everything you said.
But, as I said, I don't think growing up is the problem, it's "knowing" things wont work out anyway.
I can have a kid at 30, take care of the most intense work, then, at 35, my girl or wife decides she's bored and needs to be single for a while, after which she chooses another guy, maybe richer and handsome, maybe less good-looking and less financially-stable.

However, to me, this development isn't linked to more instagram, tinder etc. My mom has friends between 50 and 70. About 95% of them have 2 or more kids. The ones that are widows seemed pretty content when it happened and also talk about how they have freedom now and they complain about their deceased husbands. The ones who are still married are on anti-depressants, would like to divorce, but think it wouldnt be acceptable.

Similar to how gay men thought marrying gay men wasn't acceptable and married women instead, but now they do. I think it's a change that was bound to happen in the west, whereas in muslim countries there have been no cultural changes in over 1000 years...

Post: #57

Some of you don't seem to fully appreciate the ways in which modern society affects the dynamics of marriage and family. I'm not even talking about the usual manosphere bogeymen of divorce rape, AFBB, true nature of women, etc.

- Economics of family formation: In the pre-industrial era, children were a much greater net economic benefit to parents. They could start helping with the family economy (farm, blacksmith, bakery, etc) starting from around age 5-10. Compare that to today where you have to pay for their expenses for the first 22 years, and for their college tuition.

- Childhood life: Children could play with each other in small local communities. There was no need to drive them to various after school activities. If you tried to do take a hands-off approach today, you'll probably have other parents call Child Protective Services on you for negligence.

- Distorted views of marriage: The original goal of marriage was so that every man could have a way to ensure paternity and make sure that his resources were going to his own genetic children. Today that has been distorted: 99% of people in the West don't have this view. Instead, you have the blue-pill romance narrative. It's not hard to see why society's overlords push this narrative -- the original reasons for marriage are no longer valid, but they need something to keep men working hard. Hell, even my own traditional Asian parents buy into this.

What are the most important things that a father should grant his children: good childhood experiences or a strong legacy? That is the choice that men face today. You can get married and be a father no later than 35, and you'll have the energy to drive your kids to their baseball games. But will you:
- have time apart from work to shape the things that your kids are taught, overriding the blue pill indoctrination from both family and society?
- have the economic and social power to tell the evil people in modern society to go screw themselves when they try to lead your children astray?
- have built up a support network of other like-minded family men to back each other up?
- be able to provide alternative ways for your sons to support themselves and their future families (i.e. your future family line) without being part of the machine of modern society?

Bottom line is, you can choose to be a youthful father who can keep up with your kids, or you can be the wise and stable patriarch who can build a lasting legacy. It seems like you need to choose one and sacrifice the other.

Post: #58

It's definitely much harder to raise children these days no doubt. All the negative external influences make raising mentally healthy children much tougher. The philosophy of parenting has changed to a helicoptering, be involved in every little aspect of your kid's lives approach. Parents are more like their kid's chauffeurs than their disciplinarians and mentors these days. Frankly, most parents suck at parenting these days and will often outsource a lot of it to their nannies and the schools.

Blue Mark, I think a successful father needs to have a lot of energy when the kids are young, there is no getting around that. As the kids get older and need more of that mature patriarch, well you grow older with them, learn life lessons along the way and you grow and mature into the wise patriarch. That was my experience. This notion that banging a bunch of hoes in numerous foreign countries, living only for your own primal needs until you get into your 40s is proper preparation for becoming a wise patriarch is nonsensical. Too many guys that age who have lived that life are a hot mess and can barely take care of themselves let alone be ready to engage in the sacrifices needed to take care of a family.

Post: #59

(11-13-2018 05:03 PM)jselysianeagle Wrote:  The following is not an argument in favor of having children late in life, but I think a more balanced perspective is warranted.

Laner and Leonard - you've both raised excellent points but you're speaking from the perspective of raising kids in North America. OP, judging from the way he writes, is probably in a different part of the world and from a different culture. Why does this matter?

It matters because in North America, family ties, both immediate and extended, are generally weaker than elsewhere. Grandparents also live further away and are often not that involved in helping raise grandkids. This is in contrast to many other cultures such as East/South Asian ones where it's very common for parents to rely on grandparents to be heavily involved in the early years of raising children, which makes it considerably easier. Labor in these parts of the world is also dirt cheap, and it's not uncommon even for middle class folk to have multiple helpers, which makes things easier still with kids.

OP also mentioned that he's an overachiever, so even if he's not residing in a low COL area, he might be able to afford enough help + daycare.

Anecdotally, two of my cousins had a much older father, and if anything, it worked out great for them as growing up they had the best of everything. He was a well established guy and was able to give them everything to set them up for a good life.

So it depends on the particular situation of the OP. Even here in LA/NYC, I see plenty of first marriages where both man and wife are in their 30s, with first kids comin around the late 30s mark, and subsequent kids when the man is in his 40s. Usually in the cases I've seen, both were high earners and could afford additional help.

It's definitely a serious question to ponder, and yes there are downsides to waiting too long and these have been correctly covered by Leonard. I'm just trying to point out that it doesn't necessarily have to be as bleak as the picture he's painted...

This was basically what I was going to post.

Everyone agrees raising kids is demanding.

But support structures make a MASSIVE difference in your quality of life, available energy levels, and wear and tear.

Trump is loaded. He has had cooks, nannys, drivers, private schools, and first class everything his entire life and his kids lives. That's going to do wonders for your physical/mental health. But you don't need to be ultra rich to have kids a little later in life and not be drained from it. You need support.

Two types of support that are more accessible:

1. Marry into a family that has a lot of supportive relatives very close (like within 10 minutes of each other tops). Much easier to find outside the US although there are big tight supportive families within the US that all live within the same neighborhood.

2. Hire help. Get a live in nanny/au pair. Way cheaper/available overseas; need a bit more coin in the US but still do-able.

In my subjective opinion, you shouldn't be having kids after around 40 simply because the odds of you being around for much of the kids adulthood is much lower and whats the point of going through all the sacrifice in having kids if you don't get to see/mentor them as adults? Pretty sad to lose your dad to old age when you're only 20-25 years old.

Furthermore, I think you should only have kids because you enjoy the constant challenge of molding a human being with having no option to ever quit. That is the only guarantee really at the end of the day and even that can be taken away from you by the courts.

That said, I think it's better to not have kids at all as oppose to having kids under poor/undesirable conditions. Many people live interesting lives, contribute to society, and leave legacies without having kids. Does anyone really give a shit about George Washington's, Einstein's, or Hitler's kids (real or hypothetical)? We don't live in a monarchy.

I'm sure many would disagree with that last bit but that's how I see it.

Post: #60

Any of you fellas thinking about marriage in late years need to be absolutely positive you can either afford supplemental care or the girl's parents live close by and they will be willing participants in caring for the child or children. I still contend it's foolish to go the stay at home wife route. I'm adamantly opposed to it, because at some point in time the child will be school aged and the concept of being a stay at home mom to a 7, 12 or 15 year old is laughable; but good look convincing your wife to get back in the work force. I had my kid at 35 and I was tired as fuck, but I would have been broke in addition to being tired if I had a kid at 25. The whole tired schtick is overblown, either you're motivated to have a child at 45 or you aren't, lethargy has nothing to do with it and if it does then you'll figure that out when it comes time. Im a big advocate of a working woman. My woman just happens to make a good bit more than me and it certainly comes with its fair share of challenges, but I'd prefer to her making 80k a year.

Post: #61

I agree fully that extended family and a multi generational living is ideal for raising kids. In North America, outside of ethnic areas, its not normal. Its too bad, but its how it is.

I know guys that speak Filipino from being raised by a Filipino nanny from birth. I remember one guy talking about his mom getting jealous of the nanny because he was so attached to her, that she fired the nanny and hired a new one. She kept doing this for years and it FUCKED him up big time. Instead of spending more time with her son, she just made it harder for him to love anyone. Domestic help is great to take the chore of raising kids off yourself, but its a short sighted way of raising kids.

I think we on this forum know this better than anyone on how important it is to have a loving bond with both our mothers and our fathers. Lots of guys find the forum because they have no idea what its like to have good parental relationships, and most the girls we plow through each year also have shitty parental relationships.

Post: #62

(11-14-2018 11:15 AM)doc holliday Wrote:  Blue Mark, I think a successful father needs to have a lot of energy when the kids are young, there is no getting around that. As the kids get older and need more of that mature patriarch, well you grow older with them, learn life lessons along the way and you grow and mature into the wise patriarch. That was my experience.

What kind of lessons did you learn along the way? I haven't been through the experience of being a parent. But where I come from (high achieving blue state suburban area), the young dads I met, about ten years older than me (they were late 30s or early 40s, had kids under 10), all seemed to be worn down by the grind.

I'm not sure what lessons there would have been for me to learn, if I spent all my time getting worn out in the office doing a well-paid but intellectually and spiritually meaningless job, while my kids were going to a high achieving school district to be prepared to repeat that cycle.

Quote:This notion that banging a bunch of hoes in numerous foreign countries, living only for your own primal needs until you get into your 40s is proper preparation for becoming a wise patriarch is nonsensical. Too many guys that age who have lived that life are a hot mess and can barely take care of themselves let alone be ready to engage in the sacrifices needed to take care of a family.

What's the alternative though? None of my longtime friends lived abroad and/or had the player lifestyle before getting married. They're all have six figure jobs and can support the kids just fine but:
- One gets high and plays video games all the time while complaining about Trump.
- One married a woman 2 years older than him (she was past 30 at the time) and let her get fat while waiting for a few more years to have kids.
- One married his girlfriend even though she had cheated on him and he had broken it off.
- One married a younger woman and had a kid, but she didn't want another kid and he seemed to just accept her decision.

I don't see any godfather material in this crowd, men whom I'd consider as mentors to my children if I had them.

Maybe banging hoes in foreign countries is just recognition of the fact that you're not going to have the family life of the traditional patriarch in today's world unless you're Donald Trump.

Post: #63

If I might add to what I said, or even change the topic a bit, you might want to look at getting married and raising kids in a foreign country outside of the West.

I know it's a HUGE leap and it might also feel like you're abandoning everything you've ever known and your culture, but I, for one, would NEVER consider getting married, let alone raise kids in the U.S. anymore. With the lopsided sexual market in America, it's a huge risk to get married. Even if we got as far as having kids, it's expensive as fuck to raise them in the U.S. and we can still get the CPS called on us.

I see getting married and raising a family outside the West, preferably in the girl's native country, a much more preferable option if you want to have kids. Yes, you have to learn their culture and language, but that's the sacrifice you got to make if you don't want to be in the West and still desire a family. But I don't see many guys talking about that. Perhaps it's something to seriously consider, for a change?

Post: #64

Although a man in his early 30s is still a few years from his prime, he will be the subject of a lot of demand from women over 25 who want to liquidise their stocks.

Most men are still naieve with women at this age having just got lucky a few times in their 20s but à man in his early 30s who has experienced women might consider quitting while he’s ahead.

After 35, many men realise that women aren’t worth it and the few women who are left now have the cougar option with the vast surplus of young men online.

Post: #65

We need an 'old dad thread'

Post: #66

Blue Mark, I understand the risks and downsides of marriage these days. With the way divorce laws are and the way women in general have become in the Western world, I don't blame any guy for not wanting to go down the road of marriage. While it's not impossible, marriage is a difficult endeavor and not for the faint of heart. The mindset of both parties has to be one of full and total commitment to each other and the marriage. Full loyalty, no side pieces and on the same page as to how you want to raise your kids and what you both want from life. Nothing short of this level of commitment will work. The problem is that most men and women are incapable of this level of commitment.

What I have said is that if a guy wants to have a family, he should do it when he's young, preferably early 30s. It's just easier. You can find a woman in her 20s at that age to have kids with when in your early 30s. This forum is filled with guys in their late 30s, early 40s lamenting about how it's so hard to find a chick in their 20s to possibly settle down with. Much easier to find a younger chick when you yourself are younger and the reality today is that younger women generally don't want to start a family with men that are approaching or are beyond 40. A couple years ago, I dated a girl who was 20 years younger than me and while we got along great and she didn't have too much problem dating me at my age, I told her that she needed to find someone closer to her age and get started on having a family. I could not provide that for her at my age and so she did eventually find a guy slightly older than her and she's now just had kid #1 at age 30 with him.

As far as your married friends who are not living great lives, that's unfortunate that they have become that way but most likely they were destined to be like this even if they had remained single. I'm sorry but I see just as many single guys that are despondent losers and quitters as I do married guys, maybe more so to be honest. Guys that rail through a bunch of shitty women end up just as desperate and broken as guys stuck in a shit marriage with a shitty woman. A man has a choice as to whether he wants to accept his lot in life or to do everything in his power to fight back and become as great as he can. Being married or single has fuck all to do with that decision. Your friends decided to accept their lots in life and not strive for better marriage partners or push their wives and themselves to be better. If a guy decides he doesn't want to be anything special and work his ass off to become special, then he will have to accept that he will be stuck with a fat chick with a shitty personality or be stuck boning a bunch of damaged #MeToo sluts off of Tinder until he becomes too old even for those hoes. Mediocrity does not discriminate between single or married men.

As far as what lessons I learned having a family, surely this can't be a serious question. Who I am as a man today at 50 is primarily due to all of the lessons I learned raising a family. The levels of sacrifice, perserverence, leadership, self assuredness and self love that I possess today came from all of the trials and tribulations of raising my family. My ability to relate to people of all different types and my ability to read and size up any person I meet very quickly I can attribute to my life's experience with my family. I know how to give love and receive love from my family and friends, something that too many people are miserable failures at. As importantly, I know how to attract high quality people into my life because I was deeply grounded and humbled by my experience of raising my family and as such I am able to attract these types of people into my life. I have a rich life filled with a lot of joy, happiness and success. I am the man I am today because of the sacrifices and hard work that I put into my family over the last 25 years. The feeling of raising my kids into successful adulthood after all of the years of dedication and sacrifice is one of indescribable joy.

I don't care what anyone says, you cannot achieve this level of a rich life by living a life of self centered hedonism. Chasing a bunch of hoes in a shitty Third World country (or First World country for that matter), living only for yourself and your next bang will not turn you into a man that can be a strong mature patriarch. I'm not saying every man that gets married and has kids will turn out to be a godfather as you describe, far from it but I can say with relative certainty that a man living a life centered around his primal needs only, until he is in his 40s will most likely not turn out to be a man to emulate or trust with important matters. I'm certainly very wary of such men.

In the end though, I will say every man needs to know himself and what he is capable of and decide what he wants from his life. Like I said though, most people these days don't even begin to grow up until they hit their 40s.

Post: #67

(11-13-2018 12:36 AM)Anchor Man Wrote:  Yes, I know.But there’s a story behind it . Let’s not side track the convo though .
My question was how often mid 30 can marry mid 20 . She doesn’t have to model though .

I don't see why you can't find a hot 21 y.o. girl when you're 40 YO, if you have your shit together.

I hope you're not thinking about marrying an American Girl. Retire at 35 or 40, or become location independent before you're 35 or 40, and travel. That's my suggestion.

This 20s in your 30s should be absolutely no problem at all. I'm not sure how that's possible, even in a westernized and feminist part of the globe.

Post: #68

(11-15-2018 07:03 PM)Freebird Flying Wrote:  

(11-13-2018 12:36 AM)Anchor Man Wrote:  Yes, I know.But there’s a story behind it . Let’s not side track the convo though .
My question was how often mid 30 can marry mid 20 . She doesn’t have to model though .

I don't see why you can't find a hot 21 y.o. girl when you're 40 YO, if you have your shit together.

I hope you're not thinking about marrying an American Girl. Retire at 35 or 40, or become location independent before you're 35 or 40, and travel. That's my suggestion.

This 20s in your 30s should be absolutely no problem at all. I'm not sure how that's possible, even in a westernized and feminist part of the globe.

Mid 30s marrying mid 20s, very doable even in the west provided you have your shit together, know what you want out of your life and are willing to lead this mid 20s girl.

40yr old with a 21yr old, much much tougher, lets not kid ourselves. Not impossible but would take a very special 40 yr old and a very special 21 yr old to find each other. Much more possible in EE, SEA, or LA.

Post: #69

(11-15-2018 07:32 PM)doc holliday Wrote:  

(11-15-2018 07:03 PM)Freebird Flying Wrote:  

(11-13-2018 12:36 AM)Anchor Man Wrote:  Yes, I know.But there’s a story behind it . Let’s not side track the convo though .
My question was how often mid 30 can marry mid 20 . She doesn’t have to model though .

I don't see why you can't find a hot 21 y.o. girl when you're 40 YO, if you have your shit together.

I hope you're not thinking about marrying an American Girl. Retire at 35 or 40, or become location independent before you're 35 or 40, and travel. That's my suggestion.

This 20s in your 30s should be absolutely no problem at all. I'm not sure how that's possible, even in a westernized and feminist part of the globe.

Mid 30s marrying mid 20s, very doable even in the west provided you have your shit together, know what you want out of your life and are willing to lead this mid 20s girl.

40yr old with a 21yr old, much much tougher, lets not kid ourselves. Not impossible but would take a very special 40 yr old and a very special 21 yr old to find each other. Much more possible in EE, SEA, or LA.

Agree. If he's attached to staying in the U.S., he should probably get married by mid 30s if he wants a mid 20s girl.

Just go on match.com and look at what the girls in their mid 20s are looking for. I recall 10 years being very common on there when I was on that site a few years ago.

Post: #70

(11-13-2018 04:12 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  Money money money money.



Go play football with your 15 year old son when you're 65 years old.

Go play basketball with his little brother when he's 15 years old and you're 70.

That tripe is no different than the delusional cock carousel mentality that women ascribe to. Sure, maybe you can still pump out some viable sperm but you will be an embarrassment to your children. Imagine having a childhood where you had to explain to every kid you'd ever met "no, that's not my grandpa..."

Every woman your wife ever met gets to snicker behind her back about what it's like to be fucked by a guy who's dick looks like a shar pei with mange.

Men get to marry younger specimens, but some of this nonsense goes beyond stupid into clown territory. Money does not buy loyalty and nobody on this forum is going to earn enough to buy the kind of power that demands respect either. If you're not willing to put yourself in a position where the kids start arriving by 35 then don't delude yourself. Unless you have Trump-level genetics you're just running the hamster.

"Go play football with your 15 year old son when you're 65 years old.

Go play basketball with his little brother when he's 15 years old and you're 70"

This seem like social conditioning and very culture driven thinking to me. There's not a real reason for a guy to have to play football or basketball with his kids.

Golf, tennis, hunting, poker, and fishing.

It's all good

Post: #71

doc holliday Wrote:As far as what lessons I learned having a family, surely this can't be a serious question. Who I am as a man today at 50 is primarily due to all of the lessons I learned raising a family. The levels of sacrifice, perserverence, leadership, self assuredness and self love that I possess today came from all of the trials and tribulations of raising my family. My ability to relate to people of all different types and my ability to read and size up any person I meet very quickly I can attribute to my life's experience with my family. I know how to give love and receive love from my family and friends, something that too many people are miserable failures at. As importantly, I know how to attract high quality people into my life because I was deeply grounded and humbled by my experience of raising my family and as such I am able to attract these types of people into my life. I have a rich life filled with a lot of joy, happiness and success. I am the man I am today because of the sacrifices and hard work that I put into my family over the last 25 years. The feeling of raising my kids into successful adulthood after all of the years of dedication and sacrifice is one of indescribable joy.

It was a serious question alright, but one asked oit of genuine curiosity. It sounds like you might have had good preparation in your pre-parental life, and maybe it depends on your family background or the field that you work in.

I personally do not see myself getting those benefits if I had gotten married and started a family at around age 30. I didn't have anywhere close to the social skills that I do today. I would have just worked a well-paying 9-5 IT job, surrounded by SJWs bot at work and outside of work, and feeling like I could have accomplished a lot more with my talents if I didn't have to pay the bills and do the 9-5 grind. I would not have learned many valuable people skills due to the nature of my work. And I certainly didn't meet a lot of high quality people, aside from their technical talents.

I'm not trying to disagree with you or denigrate your accomplishments. Just saying that I really can't relate to it personally, in terms of my own life and the lives of those around me. It's not even about divorce laws or how bad women are, it's that I had no community in my life that I saw as a suitable environment in which to have a family, even though it was a great community by the standard of ticking all the conventional boxes.

As for my friends, it's not that they are shitty or lazy. They aren't. But we all come from a blue pill world where almost nobody (parents, teachers, religious leaders, etc) would have been able to tell them otherwise:
- don't marry a woman who is older than you and past 30
- don't wait too long to have kids
- if your girlfriend cheats, dump her and find another
- don't let your wife dictate how many kids you have

(11-15-2018 07:58 PM)Freebird Flying Wrote:  This seem like social conditioning and very culture driven thinking to me. There's not a real reason for a guy to have to play football or basketball with his kids.

Golf, tennis, hunting, poker, and fishing.

It's all good

Yup, seems like a very 1950s-80s-centric view of parenthood.

Post: #72

(11-14-2018 12:22 PM)The Black Knight Wrote:  [quote='jselysianeagle' pid='1886327' dateline='1542146604']
The following is not an argument in favor of having children late in life, but I think a more balanced perspective is warranted.



In my subjective opinion, you shouldn't be having kids after around 40 simply because the odds of you being around for much of the kids adulthood is much lower and whats the point of going through all the sacrifice in having kids if you don't get to see/mentor them as adults? Pretty sad to lose your dad to old age when you're only 20-25 years old.

Really, in this day and age, with the advent of internet and technologies, kids really need a dad as a mentor after they are 25? The robots and Technology are going to be available 20 years from now will be astounding!

I am getting most of my mentors off of you tube and from reading books these days. And even online forums sometimes.

With new technologies a guy can possibly live to be 100 YO old or longer in good health if he lives a healthy lifestyle.

times are changing very fast.

Post: #73

(11-15-2018 08:23 PM)BlueMark Wrote:  

doc holliday Wrote:As far as what lessons I learned having a family, surely this can't be a serious question. Who I am as a man today at 50 is primarily due to all of the lessons I learned raising a family. The levels of sacrifice, perserverence, leadership, self assuredness and self love that I possess today came from all of the trials and tribulations of raising my family. My ability to relate to people of all different types and my ability to read and size up any person I meet very quickly I can attribute to my life's experience with my family. I know how to give love and receive love from my family and friends, something that too many people are miserable failures at. As importantly, I know how to attract high quality people into my life because I was deeply grounded and humbled by my experience of raising my family and as such I am able to attract these types of people into my life. I have a rich life filled with a lot of joy, happiness and success. I am the man I am today because of the sacrifices and hard work that I put into my family over the last 25 years. The feeling of raising my kids into successful adulthood after all of the years of dedication and sacrifice is one of indescribable joy.

It was a serious question alright, but one asked oit of genuine curiosity. It sounds like you might have had good preparation in your pre-parental life, and maybe it depends on your family background or the field that you work in.

I personally do not see myself getting those benefits if I had gotten married and started a family at around age 30. I didn't have anywhere close to the social skills that I do today. I would have just worked a well-paying 9-5 IT job, surrounded by SJWs bot at work and outside of work, and feeling like I could have accomplished a lot more with my talents if I didn't have to pay the bills and do the 9-5 grind. I would not have learned many valuable people skills due to the nature of my work. And I certainly didn't meet a lot of high quality people, aside from their technical talents.

I'm not trying to disagree with you or denigrate your accomplishments. Just saying that I really can't relate to it personally, in terms of my own life and the lives of those around me. It's not even about divorce laws or how bad women are, it's that I had no community in my life that I saw as a suitable environment in which to have a family, even though it was a great community by the standard of ticking all the conventional boxes.

As for my friends, it's not that they are shitty or lazy. They aren't. But we all come from a blue pill world where almost nobody (parents, teachers, religious leaders, etc) would have been able to tell them otherwise:
- don't marry a woman who is older than you and past 30
- don't wait too long to have kids
- if your girlfriend cheats, dump her and find another
- don't let your wife dictate how many kids you have

(11-15-2018 07:58 PM)Freebird Flying Wrote:  This seem like social conditioning and very culture driven thinking to me. There's not a real reason for a guy to have to play football or basketball with his kids.

Golf, tennis, hunting, poker, and fishing.

It's all good

Yup, seems like a very 1950s-80s-centric view of parenthood.

Well if you feel that marriage and raising a family is not for you , I think that's perfectly fine. It's not for everyone no doubt. I just think though that you can't discount what raising a family does for a man. There is nothing more masculine than raising kids into adulthood and seeing them have success in their lives. As far as pre-parental knowledge about being a parent, god no, I had no idea what I was doing when I got started. I did grow into the role though but I did have good instincts from the start and never bought into the prevailing blue pill nonsense. As a result, my sons are well balanced masculine young men who will be fine parents if and when they choose to have families years from now.

Just because you get married doesn't mean you have to get stuck in a 9-5 job. I opened my business when I was 29 with two kids and struggled for years before it paid off. I still made enough to provide for everyone, even though it was tough. Those lessons and hard times turned me into the man I am today. If you marry the right person who supports you and believes in you, then you could still have pursued your path. Marriage doesn't automatically mean you're stuck in a shitty grind job, that's blue pill thinking. Anyways, that's just my perspective for guys who may be thinking about marriage. This notion though that men are not mature enough and socially developed enough until they're 40 to have kids is crazy to me though. That is definitely something I can't relate to at all and if this is indeed the case, then there is no wonder that we are in as much trouble as we are in now.

Post: #74

(11-15-2018 07:58 PM)Freebird Flying Wrote:  

(11-13-2018 04:12 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  Money money money money.



Go play football with your 15 year old son when you're 65 years old.

Go play basketball with his little brother when he's 15 years old and you're 70.

That tripe is no different than the delusional cock carousel mentality that women ascribe to. Sure, maybe you can still pump out some viable sperm but you will be an embarrassment to your children. Imagine having a childhood where you had to explain to every kid you'd ever met "no, that's not my grandpa..."

Every woman your wife ever met gets to snicker behind her back about what it's like to be fucked by a guy who's dick looks like a shar pei with mange.

Men get to marry younger specimens, but some of this nonsense goes beyond stupid into clown territory. Money does not buy loyalty and nobody on this forum is going to earn enough to buy the kind of power that demands respect either. If you're not willing to put yourself in a position where the kids start arriving by 35 then don't delude yourself. Unless you have Trump-level genetics you're just running the hamster.

"Go play football with your 15 year old son when you're 65 years old.

Go play basketball with his little brother when he's 15 years old and you're 70"

This seem like social conditioning and very culture driven thinking to me. There's not a real reason for a guy to have to play football or basketball with his kids.

Golf, tennis, hunting, poker, and fishing.

It's all good

You've just listed the grandfather obligations of my culture.

In your world the grandfather obligations are to mumble incoherently in a recliner at the nursing home while your son has to explain to his kids what Alzheimers is.

Whatever your justification, your approach is an aberration of human tribal obligations and an affront to nature. Cunt carousel mentality. Whatever the mental gymnastics you use.

You have the right to have kids when you're 50 or 60 or 70 if you want. You can play poker and go fishing with them. Top stuff. But don't pretend that you're not robbing them of a better life in line with historical biological norms just because you wanted to fuck around for an extra 10 or 20 years. Odds are you will never take the plunge anyway because children are sacrifice and you clearly do not have a sacrifice mentality. Nature provides many genetic dead ends but on a social level the reason society is fucked up is because a large number of people think they can indulge their hedonism and narcissism and then run the hamster that it has no detrimental effect on their next of kin or their society at large.

Go and be as degenerate as you like. Just don't play that nonsense that the alternative is some sort of silly irrelevant cultural antique. It reads every bit as hollow as an alcoholic 40 year old chick running ragged ass periods four times a year talking about how "she's almost ready to settle down". Do what you want, but you are the same as her. Don't expect everyone else to pretend otherwise.

Post: #75

There used to be Family sub-forum for convos like this. What happened to it?