Post: #76

(04-10-2015 09:07 AM)Suits Wrote:  Teach English in China like all the other Ph.Ds?

Lol I have a STEM PhD and now I'm TEFL'ing in China. On the plus side I get paid more with a doctorate.



My PhD was largely a waste of time career-wise. But I had such a great time at uni 2nd time round.

Post: #77

(09-22-2018 02:49 PM)Thrill Jackson Wrote:  

(09-22-2018 12:45 PM)spydersuit Wrote:  

(09-22-2018 12:01 PM)Thrill Jackson Wrote:  

(09-22-2018 11:38 AM)spydersuit Wrote:  

(09-22-2018 11:18 AM)Thrill Jackson Wrote:  Data is missing leading. They are taking into account every joe blow with a 4 yr degree compared to every joe blow with a MBA yeah Mr.Blow with a MBA is going to make more money. However go take that same data and look up the median income for investment bankers.

You have to factor in opportunity cost as well. All the time your taking studying away making 14k-20k a year while taking on more debt you are declining in net worth.

Meanwhile Mr.Chad takes on the investment banking gig after getting his Bachelor's degree and stacks his money and is now worth 500k by the time Mr.Blow finishes his PhD program and is making a larger yearly salary.

False. Those are lifetime earnings reported. There are hundreds of studies that found the same thing. FWIW I know plenty of investment bankers in wall street and london and not one of them has 500K. They have great jobs but not that kind of wealth. Especially after their first 3-5 years on the job. I know many people that earned 50-90k per year as PhD students. Not saying that a phd, md, jd, is for everyone. I am saying on average that they make more over their lifetimes than people that do not have those degrees. The data does not lie. The study has been replicated 100s of times. Go look for yourself. Cheers.

You not factoring in opportunity cost. You don't need a fucking MBA to get into investment banking. You may know'plenty' of investment bankers but you don't know the successful ones who go the extra mile and play the politics need to make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.

Just go to a school that gets recruited well and get your bachelor's NETWORK and get a good gig.

I'm not saying 500k is the norm but it is realistic after ten years.

Lifetime earnings means next to nothing. What would you rather be? The investment banker who retires after 15 years because he had a cash flow of 300k+ a year with no debt or the doctor who makes 250k average a year, has 800k of medical school who student loans who is handcuffed to Uncle Sam for the rest of his life

I'm looking at big picture, your looking at the manipulated data that the BLS.gov pushes so the sheep will remain sheep and keep working for the rest of there life's.

Here is some more detailed oriented data to back up the investment banking claim :https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/salary/investment-banking-compensation

Also, look at every major OEM for Technology sales on glass door (Oracle,HPE, VMware, etc.) And see what the pay potential is like. It gets very lucrative very quickly if you are good at what you do.

False. The data does not lie. You might not like it. That is fine. Total compensation studies over lifetime reveal the same thing. Go read the literature yourself. Lots of cocking off on Rooshv forum including your post. Show me the distribution of the salary. Not the range. Also, from a reputable source. I know many wall street investment bankers. Everyone is on the bottom rung of those salary ranges and the cost of living is very high in NYC. Also, potential has nothing to do what is actually earned. Most people do not take the top range of the salary. That is why I said show me the distribution.

Here I did some work for you since I deal with stupidity on a regular basis and its faster:

https://www1.salary.com/Investment-Banker-Salary.html

Show me the data and I will change my stance.

Your a deflecting what I am saying and the point I am making. It's about working smarter not harder. The average person can put one foot in front of the other and realistically make a doctor's salary sooner in SAAS sales or investment banking as oppose to getting into medical school and doing what it takes and costs to become a doctor. Most investment bankers and sales reps are trying to get by. It all goes back to the Pareto principal.

You can't say the same for being a doctor/lawyer. Very very few can BS into those roles. With the OPPORTUNITY COST" and "DIFFICULTY" of time/money to become a lawyer and a doctor it's a not a practical path to wealth.

You tell me what easier. Killing it for 2-3 years in a inside sales role to become a field rep or going through law school and earnings a law degree?

If it were easy everyone would be doing it

You miss the point and don't understand probability, statistics, or math.

Not everyone kills it in a sales career (the data indicates this). In fact, all the data indicate otherwise (most people are low level salary earners in sales positions). It is not easy to become a top earner in a sales field and a person can't BS way to the top there either. The data indicates that most of these people never even come close to making what a professional does.

Becoming a doctor or lawyer is not easy. Most people do not have the ability or discipline to delay gratification to become wealthy. You certainly fall into this category.

If it were easy and cheap, everyone would do it. Would you want that from your doctor? Certainly not.

On average, comparing apples to apples, people with graduate degrees make more in a lifetime than those who do not.

Your entire argument is bullshit. Comeback with some evidence and lets try this again.

Post: #78

(09-22-2018 04:57 PM)godfather dust Wrote:  I went to college for a semester. Not STEM

I was red pilled enough at the time to realize I should not be able to get a 91% in sociology by:
1. Do not pick up book at all, ever
2. Get a feel for professors belief system
3. Circle most politically correct answer on all multiple choice questions, it is always correct
4. Give politically correct answers to essay questions, even if you have no idea what the questions refer to
5. For the final paper spend a night or two writing about racial profiling, and get a 95

Congrats. I did the same thing those courses too.

Post: #79

(09-23-2018 02:10 AM)TopPanda Wrote:  

(04-10-2015 09:07 AM)Suits Wrote:  Teach English in China like all the other Ph.Ds?

Lol I have a STEM PhD and now I'm TEFL'ing in China. On the plus side I get paid more with a doctorate.



My PhD was largely a waste of time career-wise. But I had such a great time at uni 2nd time round.

You bankroll 1500 a month, have a job history that is all over the place (from reading your old posts), and live in a third world country.

You have a PhD and I have spacecraft.

Post: #80

(09-23-2018 03:17 PM)spydersuit Wrote:  

(09-22-2018 02:49 PM)Thrill Jackson Wrote:  

(09-22-2018 12:45 PM)spydersuit Wrote:  

(09-22-2018 12:01 PM)Thrill Jackson Wrote:  

(09-22-2018 11:38 AM)spydersuit Wrote:  False. Those are lifetime earnings reported. There are hundreds of studies that found the same thing. FWIW I know plenty of investment bankers in wall street and london and not one of them has 500K. They have great jobs but not that kind of wealth. Especially after their first 3-5 years on the job. I know many people that earned 50-90k per year as PhD students. Not saying that a phd, md, jd, is for everyone. I am saying on average that they make more over their lifetimes than people that do not have those degrees. The data does not lie. The study has been replicated 100s of times. Go look for yourself. Cheers.

You not factoring in opportunity cost. You don't need a fucking MBA to get into investment banking. You may know'plenty' of investment bankers but you don't know the successful ones who go the extra mile and play the politics need to make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.

Just go to a school that gets recruited well and get your bachelor's NETWORK and get a good gig.

I'm not saying 500k is the norm but it is realistic after ten years.

Lifetime earnings means next to nothing. What would you rather be? The investment banker who retires after 15 years because he had a cash flow of 300k+ a year with no debt or the doctor who makes 250k average a year, has 800k of medical school who student loans who is handcuffed to Uncle Sam for the rest of his life

I'm looking at big picture, your looking at the manipulated data that the BLS.gov pushes so the sheep will remain sheep and keep working for the rest of there life's.

Here is some more detailed oriented data to back up the investment banking claim :https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/salary/investment-banking-compensation

Also, look at every major OEM for Technology sales on glass door (Oracle,HPE, VMware, etc.) And see what the pay potential is like. It gets very lucrative very quickly if you are good at what you do.

False. The data does not lie. You might not like it. That is fine. Total compensation studies over lifetime reveal the same thing. Go read the literature yourself. Lots of cocking off on Rooshv forum including your post. Show me the distribution of the salary. Not the range. Also, from a reputable source. I know many wall street investment bankers. Everyone is on the bottom rung of those salary ranges and the cost of living is very high in NYC. Also, potential has nothing to do what is actually earned. Most people do not take the top range of the salary. That is why I said show me the distribution.

Here I did some work for you since I deal with stupidity on a regular basis and its faster:

https://www1.salary.com/Investment-Banker-Salary.html

Show me the data and I will change my stance.

Your a deflecting what I am saying and the point I am making. It's about working smarter not harder. The average person can put one foot in front of the other and realistically make a doctor's salary sooner in SAAS sales or investment banking as oppose to getting into medical school and doing what it takes and costs to become a doctor. Most investment bankers and sales reps are trying to get by. It all goes back to the Pareto principal.

You can't say the same for being a doctor/lawyer. Very very few can BS into those roles. With the OPPORTUNITY COST" and "DIFFICULTY" of time/money to become a lawyer and a doctor it's a not a practical path to wealth.

You tell me what easier. Killing it for 2-3 years in a inside sales role to become a field rep or going through law school and earnings a law degree?

If it were easy everyone would be doing it

You miss the point and don't understand probability, statistics, or math.

Not everyone kills it in a sales career (the data indicates this). In fact, all the data indicate otherwise (most people are low level salary earners in sales positions). It is not easy to become a top earner in a sales field and a person can't BS way to the top there either. The data indicates that most of these people never even come close to making what a professional does.

Becoming a doctor or lawyer is not easy. Most people do not have the ability or discipline to delay gratification to become wealthy. You certainly fall into this category.

If it were easy and cheap, everyone would do it. Would you want that from your doctor? Certainly not.

On average, comparing apples to apples, people with graduate degrees make more in a lifetime than those who do not.

Your entire argument is bullshit. Comeback with some evidence and lets try this again.

You seem to be arguing with yourself and putting words into my mouth. Funny how you dodged my question as well. Again

You tell me what easier. Killing it for 2-3 years in a inside sales role to become a field rep or going through law school and earnings a law degree?

Yes the average lawyer/doctor makes more in a lifetime.But the average person would have a better chance making a doctor's salary being a sales rep as oppose to getting into and graduating from medical school.

Quote:Becoming a doctor or lawyer is not easy. Most people do not have the ability or discipline to delay gratification to become wealthy. You certainly fall into this category.

You're proving my point for me. It takes alot of hard work for these positions.. even more and damn near impossible if you have a average IQ. That's walhy those 70/80 hour study/work weeks are better off being spent it Tech Sales for the average person.

You continue to dig your hills in your data like a autistic troll and never acknowledge the data I am presenting so until you answer my question this will be my last post. I hope you build a more compelling argument.

Post: #81

I would not encourage anyone to get a PhD in any field unless you're going to a top 10 program with an exceptional hiring rate. Even then, keep in mind that you'll need to hide your political views (I do) and you'll have "diversity and inclusion" rammed down your throat at every turn.

Post: #82

All of y’all talking In absolutes sound like autistic trolls.

Post: #83

Show me the data. You can’t because you are wrong.

Post: #84

To be a top earner in sales is probably equally difficult to be a low level doctor/lawyer (equal salaries). How do I know? I was the top sales person at a fortune 500 company before going to college, and I am a professional. I worked Long hours, at a young age, and did not bang many chicks. Quit, paid for college myself, and joined the military. Started banging a lot of chicks. In a sales career the opportunity cost is time and time equlals pussy.

Post: #85

^ if you spent just as much time in sales as you did as you do as a professional now how do all of a sudden have time to bang chicks now?

Also, if you can make the same money as a lower level doctor/lawyer why did you go back to school and spend all of that money and time to become a doctor/lawyer?

Post: #86

(09-24-2018 12:16 PM)spydersuit Wrote:  To be a top earner in sales is probably equally difficult to be a low level doctor/lawyer (equal salaries). How do I know? I was the top sales person at a fortune 500 company before going to college, and I am a professional. I worked Long hours, at a young age, and did not bang many chicks. Quit, paid for college myself, and joined the military. Started banging a lot of chicks. In a sales career the opportunity cost is time and time equlals pussy.

What kind of sales are we talking about. Good sales guys have great social skills.

Post: #87

This is something I fight with. I tossed around the idea of returning to school for a masters or possibly trying to take it further as I always had a passion for learning, but it seems like as you so succinctly put it, toxic. Where then is the learned man to find refuge?

I find it to be one of the great ironies of history, that 400 years ago when the church ruled everything many scholars were forced to study the great forbidden science texts in secret, while risking ruination or death. Galileo comes along and publicly says "Look! right there. There is something not revolving around the Earth, and like James Damore from google, his mistake was thinking that people were interested in having a genuine conversation and searching for real truth. What was there response? That's nice, now repent and go under house arrest for life, or we'll burn you.

Now, in universities the pursuit of certain knowledge or truth is in the same realm of heliocentralism was all those years ago. Even wondering about evidence contrary to "73 cents on the dollar" or "1 in 4" and like Galileo, you risk a professional blood letting, and despite calls to the contrary by certain fringe elements, aren't actually killing people yet. Even multiple Nobel laureates have come crashing down, foremost in the fields, academics 1% of the 1%ers.

Post: #88

Thrill from your own link the majority of people who even make associate in investment banking have MBAs.

Post: #89

Great thread.

I studied Classical music in college and musicians are generally expected to get *at least* a Master's degree. A good percentage go on to get Ph.Ds. Teaching is a big part of being a musician unless you're insanely talented and don't have to teach to make ends meet. So having credentials allows you to get better teaching gigs, charge more, etc.

I didn't quite finish my Bachelor's mostly because I was already working in music and didn't see the point, plus the politics are insane. Crazy lib professors and all the rest of it.

I do wish I'd stuck it out and completed my bachelor's because at least in music you can either play / sing or you can't, so no matter how political a music department gets, you'll never be able to overlook the ability to perform at a certain level, sight read, etc. There's a certain culture of competence that's challenging and refreshing compared to all of the required B.S. courses you have to take.

I'm actually thinking of going back and finishing my degree maybe in Japan or Europe. I sure do miss being around music all day.

Post: #90

(09-25-2018 04:12 PM)Seadog Wrote:  This is something I fight with. I tossed around the idea of returning to school for a masters or possibly trying to take it further as I always had a passion for learning, but it seems like as you so succinctly put it, toxic. Where then is the learned man to find refuge?

I find it to be one of the great ironies of history, that 400 years ago when the church ruled everything many scholars were forced to study the great forbidden science texts in secret, while risking ruination or death. Galileo comes along and publicly says "Look! right there. There is something not revolving around the Earth, and like James Damore from google, his mistake was thinking that people were interested in having a genuine conversation and searching for real truth. What was there response? That's nice, now repent and go under house arrest for life, or we'll burn you.

Now, in universities the pursuit of certain knowledge or truth is in the same realm of heliocentralism was all those years ago. Even wondering about evidence contrary to "73 cents on the dollar" or "1 in 4" and like Galileo, you risk a professional blood letting, and despite calls to the contrary by certain fringe elements, aren't actually killing people yet. Even multiple Nobel laureates have come crashing down, foremost in the fields, academics 1% of the 1%ers.

The answer to your question is -> not in Canada. With the current climate, I would only consider some of the Canadian universities that offer online programs. I'm guessing that is not what you are looking for. There are still some decent schools and programs in the US, but you would obviously pay a lot more, and your ability to work would be hampered. If you are looking for a combination of not toxic and cheaper, I have heard some positive comments about some continental European schools. UK schools are apparently cucked beyond belief. I have a number of friends who read law in the UK and they are constantly harassed by groups like RebLaw for things like not using neugender pronouns (xe,xer,etc.) in legal briefs.

It really depends on what you want to study. I always thought the hard sciences would be relatively immune to this bullshit, but, at least in Canada, it would appear they are not. Which is how you get blue-haired freaks arguing that we need to shut down research reactor projects, because apparently physics is part of the patriarchy. Those facilities produce medical isotopes, by the way. It's like, "Do you want to go watch a seven-year-old die of pediatric bone cancer, you stupid bitch?"

Post: #91

(09-25-2018 05:10 PM)Repo Wrote:  Thrill from your own link the majority of people who even make associate in investment banking have MBAs.

Well I'll take that L but from what I remember you don't necessarily need one to get a good investment banking gig.

Post: #92

The PhDs in my field (Accounting) are worthless.

The people that make the most $ are partners at Big 4 firms or guys that went on to the C suite, own businesses etc.

The profession is a great example why game matters more than "higher education" in some professions.

I moved on from an Accounting career to something I own. Do I feel the need to go back for a PhD?Absolutely not.

Post: #93

ThrillJackson- great question. After a few combat tours, I decided that other things in life were more important to me like my education. I actually told a professor in lecture (after military time) that he was a fucking moron and academics have no clue about reality. Some of this is true, especially in the humanities. I have learned that many academics are not that naive, they are just resource and time constrained and the system encourages all sorts of messed up behaviors. Academia is actually very cut throat and the penalty for not drinking the kool aid is absolute misery.

The advanced degrees have given me a better understanding of complex scientific materials and high tech engineering skills that I would not have had otherwise. I also have job security and flexibility due to the alphabet soup. I can easily find a high paying job globally and never worry about being laid off or terminated. The degrees have opened doors to me that I would have never had access to without them. I have also been introduced to other very powerful people due to my research activities and expertise. These people rely on me for advice. Really, it was never my intent to go so far in school. Rather, I enjoyed it when I needed a career change, found ways to get paid to earn the degrees, and drastically expanded my professional network. What has not been discussed in this thread, and I just realized now, is that these advanced degrees can give you power and access. Some argue that power is more valuable than money. What graduate school can give you is a very powerful social network. Many of the people from my graduate programs are in positions of power in industry and government, and we help each other out. Without this network, my company would not be successful. Sort of rambling here.... back to the point. At the time, I didn’t want the uncertainty of a sales career and I hated the work itself. The irony is that as a ceo of a health tech company is that I find that most of my effort now is spent selling our products to investors. A PhD, MD,JD, MBA, is not for everyone. I am not arguing that. I am arguing that is can have extrodinary value in terms of power and a decent stable 6 figure income.

Post: #94

Cobra I disagree and here is why: take 2 identical twins. everything is the same in their lives up until the point where they both complete their bachelors degrees. 1 decides to go on to graduate school. The twin that goes on to graduate school makes more money and advances faster than the other. This was an actual study performed on identical twins.

Apart from the reaearch, it is not hard to imagine: if you have 2 equal people sitting in the resume stack, or in the startup company stack, but one has a phd/md/jd/mba/ms and the other does not (and they are trully equal), the advanced degree holder is more likely to get the job/investment/opportunity.

Personally, I know that I would have not been hired to my first executive position without my advanced degrees. Most of my peers had at least 1 advanced degree. Now, at my company, 60% of the executives have advanced degrees. Considering that most people in the world do not have advanced degrees, advanced degrees have a higher rate of appearance in the c suite than you would expect based on rates of graduate degrees alone. If 1/100 have phds in the population, then you would expect to see the same rate in the c suite (if phds are not valued at a higher rate in the real world). In fact, the rate of phds in the c suite is very high. I think it is 1/5, but I would have to check again. Think about that for a second.

Post: #95

Seadog- you are absolutely right. The pressure to conform in academia is real. If you disagree with the masses, you risk losing money, promotions, and prestige. Academia is really fucked up that way, and I hate that aspect of it. It is not a bad place to be if you can find a way to never be on campus and work, and that is an easy goal to achieve in a research position. Universities also often encourage academics to be entrepreneurs which can lead to multiple sources of income. I know a guy that invented a drug at a uni, and then licensed it out to his own company and is very wealthy. Craig Ventner comes to mind and he was an NIH /Stanford academic that basically said fuck you to both and became filthy rich in health tech. Think about that- millions of dollars of government investment to build and test a product, and then you just hand it back to yourself to sell (for a small licensing fee to the Uni). Everybody wins.

Post: #96

Thrill Jackson- your time question. As My career has advanced I have hired smarter and better people than myself, collaborated with the best people, and built a support staff so that the business and academic work runs without me. I empower my colleagues and subordinates so that I can have more time to myself and focus on the work and things I enjoy. These days I focus my game on ONS because I am married and my wife is ok with my non-serious side action. ***On a side note, marraige has improved my game. I might start a thread on that.

Post: #97

(09-26-2018 11:48 AM)spydersuit Wrote:  Cobra I disagree and here is why: take 2 identical twins. everything is the same in their lives up until the point where they both complete their bachelors degrees. 1 decides to go on to graduate school. The twin that goes on to graduate school makes more money and advances faster than the other. This was an actual study performed on identical twins.

Apart from the reaearch, it is not hard to imagine: if you have 2 equal people sitting in the resume stack, or in the startup company stack, but one has a phd/md/jd/mba/ms and the other does not (and they are trully equal), the advanced degree holder is more likely to get the job/investment/opportunity.

Personally, I know that I would have not been hired to my first executive position without my advanced degrees. Most of my peers had at least 1 advanced degree. Now, at my company, 60% of the executives have advanced degrees. Considering that most people in the world do not have advanced degrees, advanced degrees have a higher rate of appearance in the c suite than you would expect based on rates of graduate degrees alone. If 1/100 have phds in the population, then you would expect to see the same rate in the c suite (if phds are not valued at a higher rate in the real world). In fact, the rate of phds in the c suite is very high. I think it is 1/5, but I would have to check again. Think about that for a second.

This is a lot more complex than you may believe. I specifically mentioned my space (Accounting and Finance), not yours. I would not even pretend I know your field well.

Every field is different. It's best to not make generalized assumptions about PhDs in every single profession. There is value to it in some but definitely not others. There is not a single PhD you can get in a Finance or Accounting field that will get your resume to the top. On the other hand, it will get laughed at.

Furthermore, I assess resumes and candidates for a living (I provide consulting solutions). I don't care if a person has an MS, JD or whatever. I read their experiences and then meet them personally. If they don't fit and someone with a Bachelor's does, I'm placing that person with a Bachelor's. Recruiters and Consulting providers in each field have a knack for this. It is actually an art.

Post: #98

It also depends on what your goals are and what you prefer doing. If you are talented in a specific field of research and enjoy it, being in academia is likely to be personally fulfilling, although not necessarily financially beneficial compared with other fields of work.

Being pretty much chuffed when working and looking forward to new projects, presentations, and authored papers can be rewarding. In the corporate sectors for example, you will also have to encounter office politics, deal with conflicts, times of high levels of stress, fierce competition, jealousy, backstabbers, people you hate, and learn to navigate through that mess.

Academics are quite individualistic thinkers, can be eccentric, and work a lot by themselves. If you don't like sitting alone in a room for several hours at a time doing research, that type of job is probably not your cup of tea, although teaching can provide some variation.

Post: #99

Cobra you are missing the point. Those with graduate degrees are more represented across all c suites compared to those who don’t have graduate degrees (regardless of specialty/business). Those with graduate degrees make more over a lifetime than those who don’t. This might be shocking to you, but many executives with graduate degrees are managing business units outside of their graduate specialty (completely unrelated). These are facts. PM me when you make it out of HR cosulting and into the C suite. I will send you a hooker to celebrate.

Post: #100

Hippie Dippie- most academics are managers. Very few actually do the research themselves. Its more about hustling for money and managing personnel than anything.