Post: #226

Interesting thing you mentioned about your stepdad "forgetting" how unselfish you had been. I think looking at my dad, he does something similar- unless I'd done something "useful" or worthy or intelligent or something similar very recently- he'd always assume I was pathetic, but wouldn't explicitly say so. Then every time I would do something even minor that I wouldn't care about that he happened to notice, I'd hear all this condescending praise. It's almost as if he forgot about my track record. Perhaps this is unique to my situation since I haven't left home yet, since it wasn't done as much to my sisters I believe.

Another similarity is his insistence on spouting his opinions even though no one cares. I have a similar instinct also- but I try really hard to suppress it, and generally I'm lazy enough that the default of doing nothing is pretty helpful too. I think it's strongest with family, where there's significantly less social cost- I believe he does it much less with other people but it inevitably leaks out anyway.

I'm wondering how he's actually this functional in society despite all the gamma tendencies. Perhaps he's projecting that I would struggle in the world because he has due to gammaness? Maybe he's only very slightly gamma and you can still function if you work hard enough at other areas to be useful.

Post: #227

^ I'll find out, but it's early days yet. We'll see what happens in time, if he needs to up his dose, and if the Gamma behaviours return whilst on it.

What worried me is that when he forgot his tablet, he wasn't just his usual Gamma self. It was Gamma on Steroids.

Post: #228

(04-27-2018 02:46 AM)The Catalyst Wrote:  I'm wondering how he's actually this functional in society despite all the gamma tendencies. Perhaps he's projecting that I would struggle in the world because he has due to gammaness? Maybe he's only very slightly gamma and you can still function if you work hard enough at other areas to be useful.

Remember, they can be very, very good in their particular field of specialization because they're often socially-isolated enough to put in the hours developing their skills. Sometimes they're even geniuses and this can give an observer a false appearance of disciplined-functionality.

I've noted before how common Gamma is the music field, particularly singer-songwriters. I can see why: they become the sole focus of everyone's attention, since even in a band situation, they'll put themselves forward, and they think girls will want to bang them. (15 years ago, maybe, not post-Facebook unless you're also top-tier attractiveness).

Myself? As a kid, I noted on a record, there were names underneath the songs on the label of singles. I learnt that songwriter names were more reliable an indicator of a potentially-good record than artist names. Goffin-King. Lennon-McCartney. Holland-Dozier-Holland. I just wanted to write songs and see my name on the label. If I knew the parade of toxic personalities that would expose me to over the years, I would have taken up writing mystery novels or architecture.

My stepfather is a genius at budgeting and allocating large sums of money without care for the human cost of doing so. Can you see why he'd be valuable to certain employers?

If you recognise the behavioural instincts mate, you're not true Gamma. You can be vigilant and temper your negative urges.

Post: #229

(04-27-2018 02:47 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  ^ I'll find out, but it's early days yet. We'll see what happens in time, if he needs to up his dose, and if the Gamma behaviours return whilst on it.

What worried me is that when he forgot his tablet, he wasn't just his usual Gamma self. It was Gamma on Steroids.

Concerned he's building a dam without an overflow pipe?

Post: #230

Catalyst Wrote:Perhaps this is unique to my situation since I haven't left home yet, since it wasn't done as much to my sisters I believe.

My father is also very Gamma.

It doesn't matter what you do, or have done, because your father has only very limited range of skills to get what he wants from you. When those skills don't work, he personally attacks you.

Post: #231

(04-27-2018 07:23 AM)MMX2010 Wrote:  My father is also very Gamma.

It doesn't matter what you do, or have done, because your father has only very limited range of skills to get what he wants from you. When those skills don't work, he personally attacks you.

I'd expect that Gammas will be uncomfortable around their sons:

- They only have empathy for women, not men;
- They will always prefer their daughters;
- A male child threaten to outshine them, or sexually-compete with them for female attention.

Post: #232

(04-27-2018 08:37 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 07:23 AM)MMX2010 Wrote:  My father is also very Gamma.

It doesn't matter what you do, or have done, because your father has only very limited range of skills to get what he wants from you. When those skills don't work, he personally attacks you.

I'd expect that Gammas will be uncomfortable around their sons:

- They only have empathy for women, not men;
- They will always prefer their daughters;
- A male child threaten to outshine them, or sexually-compete with them for female attention.

100% describes my father's attitude towards me. Generally has my back if anything threatens the family reputation, but damned if he doesn't whine about my existence the rest of the time.

Post: #233

All right. Everyone. Step away from the gamma thread.

Post: #234

YoungBlade Wrote:100% describes my father's attitude towards me. Generally has my back if anything threatens the family reputation, but damned if he doesn't whine about my existence the rest of the time.

With my dad, he would always praise my intelligence in front of other people (and always as a way of humble-bragging about his own "contribution" to it - despite being never home, and having nothing to do with it).

But in front of me, he would always complain about my intelligence when challenging him or my mom on a relatively harmless topic, like religion.

He always, always, always gave the impression of caring way more about maintaining his image in front of strangers than in performing legitimate parental duties.

Post: #235

Man, reading all this makes so much sense in hindsight, like it explains everything.

I'd always read about Gamma and thought maybe my Dad had Gamma tendencies but wouldn't think he was... but if I assume he is, then everything makes so much sense and all the pieces come together. Why he's with my mum and why my family is the way it is.

Edit: Maybe Gamma dads produce dysfunctional sons in some way? Could explain a lot also...

Post: #236

I'll be curious to see the results of the medicated Gamma.

Post: #237

(04-27-2018 02:41 PM)The Catalyst Wrote:  Edit: Maybe Gamma dads produce dysfunctional sons in some way? Could explain a lot also...

They do.

I don't like explaining my childhood because it was legitimately terrible, and I don't like putting people in that awkward position of not knowing what to say. I also don't want to be seen as someone telling a sob story to get sympathy because HOLY SHIT does my dad do that all the time.

But the basic formula is that the verbal abuse and/or physical abuse and/or generalized rage/anxiety of the Gamma Father translates into a son with no identity and strong Gamma tendencies in himself.

Seeing your mom get unfairly abused on a routine basis from an early age makes you way too prone to take the female side in all conflicts. If you're lucky (Hah!) you become a feminist who cannot get laid. If you're really unlucky you become a feminist who marries a feminist like Cathy Newman.

You stew over everything, making the most basic real life conversations quite difficult, because you can't just spontaneously say anything; you have to think three moves ahead, and, even then, most people don't like you.

Jealously becomes an enormous issue that either makes you become a full-fledged SJW or forces you to get along with people who had it way better than you (and usually don't understand the extent to which they had it better).

Women in general become this indecipherable collection of people whom you either worship or despise, but you know you're okay when you do neither of these. This journey can take decades.

There's more, but that's all I can think of right now. And I have an appointment to go to. I might add more later.

Post: #238

(04-27-2018 01:19 PM)MMX2010 Wrote:  He always, always, always gave the impression of caring way more about maintaining his image in front of strangers than in performing legitimate parental duties.

What is Gamma really, but trying to force an unrealistic and entirely-subjective Self-Assessment into being everyone's else's Objective Reality?

This is like trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole through sheer force of will, rather by stopping to consider how the peg's shape could be whittled and planed first to smoothly pass through. Everything else would be futile and destructive.

If you recognise you have inherited Gamma Qualities - you're already halfway out - get out your knife and start whittling. You have the power to make yourself into what you wish you were if you can abandon pride and humble yourself first.

If it's only some inherited tendencies, you can burn them off with vigilance. If the situation is more serious, ideally, you'll want to aim for Delta - it's an achievable goal of just allowing yourself to just be a regular guy - rather than aim to be Alpha right off the bat. You can build yourself up from that stable Delta base.

In a way, the Game scene is a bad place for Gammas, because it threatens to turn them into Sigmas, which shares many Gamma traits and can be just as socially-destructive. The difference is not outwardly giving the appearance of not caring at all about image maintenance which can be used as provacation, instead of - as with Gamma - too much, and being sexually-successful with women. Note that it isn't a form of 'Cool Alpha'. I see it as 'Sexually-Attractive or Roguishly-Charming Gamma'. It too needs to be whittled and planed to function better in society.

Here's a good example. My mate Bill and I (both Sigma) had been preparing a floor to cement the other day, so were filthy. He got a call about some possible busing tables work the next day, but needed a dress shirt and pants for the job. Knowing he's an unusual build - he's slim but a very stocky upper body for his size from heavy lifting - I said he'd need to be measured up, and try it on, because otherwise every time he bent over in, say, a European Fit, the shirt would gather at the back and ride up.

Neither of us thought twice about turning up to the fanciest store in town in dirty, torn clothes. Remember what I identified as the Sigma mantra: fuck 'em if they can't take a joke?

He didn't want to go there, saying it would be too 'expensive', but I said "It's a birthday present, mate" and "They'll probably have something marked down."

And damned if the Older, very well put together Saleslady didn't care how we looked. I watched Bill, being Sigma, baiting her for a reaction by opening with "I need the cheapest shirt you have." And this woman knew how to charm, "You don't have to pay high prices for good quality, Darl", and "I know where the bargains are", and she could give it back just as good as Bill gave it, so they fell into a razor-quick back and forth that was hilarious to listen to, with him pushing boundaries, and her pushing them back.

Eventually it got to exchanges like this, as she lifted his beard to button his collar up.

"It's better this shirt has stripes," she said, motioning across at his chest. "So it's not so see-through." (Conspiratorially) "The same thing that happens to women happens to men."

Bill instantly-pointed downwards. "I'll need a much longer shirt."

Deadpan. "Oh, I know, Darl. But, at least it's saved me the trouble of asking which side you dress on."

They spent the last 10 minutes before closing swapping old pub crawl stories, and I almost feel like I learnt more about true town history in that time than I did reading the officially-sanctioned version a year back.

As we left, he said she was 'Good value', which is Sigma speak seems to mean "I provoked, she gave it back as good as she got." I noted we got out of there very-cheaply, with known brands.

He grinned. "I thinks he liked me, mate. I can tell she was a bit of a naughty girl back in the day. And she was well put together for her age. I thought she'd be snobby."

I shook my head. "I don't care how snobby people look. You scratch them in the right place, and they get over themselves, then everyone turns feral."

So it worked out well, but what if we had hit a saleslady that was much prissier, and provoked her in the same manner? You can see the social problems Sigma could potentially-cause.

Related:

Post: #239

A couple things sort of simmered in my head as I read and deliberated on things.

-That explains why my dad picked my mum- right now she's (relatively)completely useless despite being middling intelligence in the academic/education sense(Which is why if she wants to feel good about herself she would talk about her university education. To me I don't care because I know a lot dumber people who go to and succeed at university, but I can't get her to understand). A lot of the time my dad would rant about something, about the uselessness of her or people in society generally. On the surface level his rambles make sense logically despite mild cognitive dissonance which most people have- but it raises the question of why he's with her in the first place(Hate to say it, but she's not particularly attractive, probably a lot better back in the day, but I still wouldn't have picked her). And why he's in NZ and likes it so much here, when bogan culture is everything he claims to dislike(He rationalises it by claiming not every Kiwi is like that- but I notice boganness/anti-intellectual/tall poppy syndrome culture seep everywhere).

On the surface level he wouldn't either- but if it's true that Gammas feel the need to pick situations where they're superior to people around them it makes total sense. So he (subconsciously)picks situations where he's superior to other people, and in NZ in particular Kiwis are so non-confrontational they will never call you out even if it's in their interest to(and thus he will call any non-Kiwi non-Chinese culture unfriendly or "racist"- it seems blatantly untrue to me as I experienced the opposite, so I often called him out on it). Then he rationalises the reasons for the picks after the fact. The fact that he's logical is a plus because he can recognise the negatives of the situations he's in, but it's also screwy because 1) the original subconscious reasons for the pick weren't obvious to me, so on some level I felt the dissonance even though I couldn't put my finger on it and 2) him being logical made me extrapolate that too much, so I would "over-trust" his opinions. It doesn't help he sounds super authoritative either.

As bad and incompetent as my mum is, she doesn't deserve to be put through with all the rants. I'm not sure if she was originally this way or got this way due to being with my dad. Either way, I just don't care anymore and they can live with each other all they want as long as I can get away. My sisters generally care more, being more agreeable and less sigma- but obviously they don't have a solution either. And my mum isn't a saint either and sometimes she gets into these moods also. As a logical person it's tempting to side with my dad more because he's logical and my mum pretty much isn't at all- but thinking it through I'm not sure that's correct. Regardless, my mum is currently in a state of learned helplessness because it's obvious my dad is superior to her and he's put her in a situation where she doesn't like it but it's not obvious she's able to survive in the world without him.

Her overmothering led me to the situation I'm in right now- where I don't have a job and live at home living off them. My middle aged friend observed from a distance and she noticed a pattern- there's nothing "wrong" with me, although my mum thinks I have a minor but significant disability. So my mum would do all sorts of things to help me but ultimately reduce my independence, even though consciously both of them claim they want me to succeed, they're subconsciously crippling my independence. And I'm relatively lazy and fearful of doing new things, so I let it happen, because if they do everything for me, then why should I work? And so my friend said I'd fallen into that trap- and I'd have to work hard to get independence myself to break free from that. That was super insightful, and I need to ignore their conditioning and push through my laziness and get over the fear of trying new things out. This led me to pushing through the job search despite how massively unpleasant it was for me. Luckily, practising game helped me somewhat- but right now I don't really have a choice to push forward because everything points to me being with my parents crippling me psychologically and otherwise. And that my parents don't know what they're doing more than I do- so it's really even more important I get power and control over my life.

-On Sigmas. I've been deliberating and thought being sigma really screwed with me. In NZ there's very little independent thought, similar to but worse than Australia/UK. I haven't followed through with school/university/social circles precisely because I stirred too much shit and I was different. In the US I notice people much worse than me have solid social circles- but here if you aren't similar to Kiwis culturally, you're fucked. NZ has to be anti-sigma to a ridiculous degree, and I imagine Aus/UK is also. My life would be significantly better if I wasn't sigma, if I was beta the track record of my peers who were about as intelligent or academic as I was was to get a scholarship to university and by my age right now be already graduating and entering a decent job. However, right now I'm just trying to find and almost beg for an entry level job.

Although being Sigma I feel I'm self-aware in a sense that non-sigmas just aren't. As an example I have standards for girls- everyone else is just peer pressured to dumpster dive lookswise, as we have worse girls than even Australia. I know I actually have below-average standards when I compare myself to non-Anglo friends who live overseas- but every Kiwi thinks I have "super-high" standards for girls, which just doesn't make sense to me, because objectively I don't. If I wasn't sigma I probably would have a gross girlfriend, which as a sigma I instintively am repulsed by the idea, however I'm not sure how bad I would feel if I was actually in the situation.

I'm really attached to my sigmaness as that's one of the things that's most integral to me and something I feel I can't life without- yet I can't help but wonder if it's a dysfunctional personality trait and something I'd objectively be way better off not having, and I'm just rationalising why I like it after the fact.

Post: #240

Don't have much time at the moment: turns out he's on Venlafaxine Hydrochloride, under the Effexor brand.

Post: #241

(04-28-2018 03:28 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  Don't have much time at the moment: turns out he's on Venlafaxine Hydrochloride, under the Effexor brand.

Unfortunately for gammas, that which may make them (more or less) socially functional may also make them sexually dysfunctional:

Quote:Effexor XR (venlafaxine hydrochloride extended-release) is an antidepressant used to treat patients with major depressive disorders such as panic and social disorders. Effexor XR is available as a generic. Common side effects of Effexor XR include:

• nausea
• constipation
• insomnia
• dizziness
• asthenia
• drowsiness
• dry mouth
• nervousness
• strange dreams
• blurred vision
• changes in appetite or weight
• decreased sex drive
• impotence
• difficulty having an orgasm, and
• increased sweating
  

Post: #242

To continue the story/thoughts on my parents. It's only tangentially related to gammaness, but I don't really have that many people to talk to who would truly understand, and getting it off my chest is therapeutic to me.

I've realised my parents don't actually want me to succeed or have a fulfilling life. Well, maybe they do, but it's really low on their list of priorities. It's a strange thing to say because I've always thought that, they've always said they did and I always believed them. The accurate thing to say I believe is they care about me doing things "the right way"(their way), or that they feel I'm making progress, but they don't actually care about me making progress except when it impacts how they feel about it. It sounds super cynical to say this, but I tried coming to other conclusions and there was always something off/wrong about them when I thought it through. In this case, their way is studying, but I don't think I can be naive and assume that even if I went and studied that they would actually feel all that much better. And it's important, as Jordan Peterson said, to not do something out of parental expectation and be resentful about it, and I really dislike the idea of university, especially in NZ.

They've always thought I couldn't be independent. A year and a half ago I stayed in another city in Christchurch for a few weeks working for a friend. Half a year ago they've holidayed overseas for just over a month and I managed to do all the cooking and washing up for myself and I survived just fine. To me, there was no reason for them to freak out or be paranoid, but they were anyway. And when proven that their fears were unfounded, then were proud for a little bit, then acted as if it didn't happen. About 3-5 years ago, my life was in shambles and I've made solid improvements since then. But it might not have mattered to them. Their feelings for how independent or how much progress I'd have made is sort of irrelevant, what matters is what they feel impulsively and how bad or not they feel in the moment. At one point I even cornered my mum and asked her point blank, what would it take for you to think I can survive on my own after listing the things I've done and she said "nothing"(ie- she would never believe that).

My dad, probably in true Gamma style, thinks I'm useless and as I alluded to earlier, psychologically wants the people around him to be worse than him. He went on a ramble on me today, which was rare but happens every so often about how useless I am. About how no one would care about me except parents, "internet people" don't really care(as far as I know, the few friends I do have care about me more than them). About how I wouldn't even be able to afford my computer without them(it's ~$400- so that's clearly wrong- or even $3/day at internet cafes for computers which aren't slow and clunky like mine is). Then about how clearly the library or anywhere else won't want me using their computers(I know that's wrong- there'd been a powercut recently and I had to make do camping their computers, and I know people much scummier than me they allow). Or because I'm relatively messy/disorderly, "no one would want me to stay with them"(I realised recently watching Jordan Peterson this was just a high conscientious/orderliness person on the big 5 not understanding what a low conscientious person prefers, and projecting everyone is high orderliness also). And how I "don't want to listen", even though I listen to everything people say, contrary to what most people do- he assumes he's always right and if I disagree it's because I don't want to face the truth. Now I realise- the things he was talking about was tangential to the actual feeling he was feeling- if none of those things applied, he would almost certainly talk about something else he disliked about me.

I generally had assumed, because of how authoritatively and logical he sounded, that he was right. Then I would nitpick the things I saw and logically deduced were wrong. The reasoning being, I assumed he knew what he was talking about and was giving (relatively)good advice and so I was just clarifying to get it accurate and right. It was only now that I'd truly realise in my bones he's just venting and most socially intelligent people would just pretend to listen and filter/tune him out. That might be why he likes NZ so much, ha.

My mum, is a classical codependent. A lot of the time my dad would tell her what to do. Often when asked why she would do something, she would be stubbornly saying "Well, Dad wanted me to do it". Although my dad's really forceful/authoritative at times, I would be thinking that surely you don't have to if you really don't want to. For ages I would just assume she's either retarded or weak minded. But that's not necessarily true- she's less smart than everyone else in our family, but to quote my dad "she can be smart if she wants to be". And she's strong minded enough to run a quarter marathon and write a bunch of books. Now I realise she's running a classic "games people play" game- she wants Dad or someone like him to control her almost every move, so in the off chance something bad happens she can claim "it's Dad's fault". I can't really identify with that now- why wouldn't you rather do things your way if you think they're better? But I realise now it's probably a psychological need to offload responsibility and blame. I don't know if she's always been that way or her marriage made her this way.

Speaking of my mum, she's overmothered me in a way because many years back doctors said I had high functioning autism. Which basically is just mild personality differences- but she's bought into this so much she thinks I've got a relatively serious condition. Since she's really in a state of learned helplessness, she thinks something similar about me also. So she thinks I wouldn't be able to do things without a whole bunch of useless government agencies helping me. I had an inkling they were useless- but I didn't like for instance job searching by myself and I was lazy and fearful, so I would offload it to one of the agencies who would "help" me but man oh man, they had no idea what they're doing. Typical government parasites. If you would look and observe logically, there was barely anything wrong with me short of things a lot of high functioning autistic people do which are fine- and I was much more capable than these incompetent social workers/agencies. But she genuinely can't see this. Recently she even laughed at the idea of me being able to get and keep a fulltime job.

Because I'd assumed they were right, I'd subconsciously thought I was useless also. But after watching some Jordan Peterson, I've realised they didn't know what they were talking about more than I was. I think some part of me held out hope that my parents knew things I didn't, because I wanted to offload responsibility and blame- so I had to realise that wasn't true. And how although I didn't know what I was doing, I had to take the plunge and actually work and try something. At the moment after a week or two job hunting I've got an interview at an entry level food place- hopefully it would work out, but I have to develop my amygdala and emotional resilience to keep going with the job search even if the interview bombs.

The other thing about the ramble Dad does at times. It's rare, but happens every so often, he would keep telling me about how useless I am and how "he wants to help me but I have to help myself" and all other venting things. Historically when this happens emotions flare- my parents seem pretty neurotic, and so am I/my sisters to some degree. Either parent would get in a mood and then rant on and on. Then I, taking him seriously, would get swept into his emotional storm and I'd get emotional myself and often would break down crying and he would imply I "deserved" it. The more I tried to argue, logically, the worse it got, especially since he claimed I wouldn't listen when I would listen way more than anyone else would.

This time, I did something different. I just sat there and took it. I really wanted to pretend to listen- which meant I couldn't do something else at the same time. Since I had to seem like I was listening anyway, I defaulted to listening. This time, as he got more and more hysterical about how "useless" I was- I just sat as emotionally unaffected as I could, as I repeated to myself in a mantra-like way how he just "psychologically needed" to say his opinions, not that he genuinely was giving good advice. I didn't even bother taking him too seriously, but couldn't help but listen to everything he said just in case he said something important. My amygdala was lighting up as he was melting down and getting mad- but rather than fight back or break down, I tried really hard to stay calm through it.

After things like that, when I would try to plead my case, I would be broken down crying and emotionally drained and frustrated for a good few hours. This time though, I felt emotionally tired after he offloaded his negative emotions on me, but I felt strong that I could control my amygdala. Every part of me wanted to meltdown or argue back- but I stayed the course and after he left, I felt really proud of myself and happy about my emotional control.

It's becoming apparent that I need to leave home for my psychological wellbeing. But Auckland is really expensive and I'm not sure flatting is worth it- I don't culturally get along with Kiwis and so it feels I'm trading one problem for another. But I am making steps toward it, finding work and saving up. When I've saved up a couple thousand I'll look into finding countries that would want me and would be viable for me to have a long term visa at. This is the other thing- they've always claimed "no other country would want me" except NZ. That among others I've internalised and parts of my feelings of uselessness were because of them. And if no other country but NZ wants me, that's really depressing, because I can't handle living here long term. But I'm breaking out of my conditioning. I need to believe I have value and can achieve things if I want to and actively make steps towards doing so.

Post: #243

OK Catalyst, I've been reading your posts the last couple of days and given this some thought. I wasn't going to say anything, but...

Take the following with a pinch of salt. I'm not a professional. I'm just another random on the internet. Keep that in mind.

There seems to be a few things going on here. As I see it these are the major sticking points you have at the moment:

1: You are having difficulty in your home environment with your parents.
2: You are having difficulty in your local (NZ) environment with the people there in general.
3: You have personal difficulties centered around some kind of developmental disorder.

Let's take these on one by one, but first, I just want to say that your story is absolutely text book. One thing that ALL people who suffer narcissistic abuse have in common? Their story is exactly the same. It's the same old story. And it is very much related to the concept of Gamma as well. The following won't be easy reading. Remember it's just my opinion and I may very well be wrong.

So, no.1 - your home environment, or rather your relationship with your parents. In a nutshell, your mother is a covert/inverted narc (narcissist) and your father is an overt lesser to middling narc. He's not from the higher school of narcissism, but he is still malignant, he's just not high-functioning that is all, hence him being a Gamma.

It's very common for women to be covert and for men to be overt and for them to form bonds/relationships. These seeds will have been sown by their parents. Yes your mother is co-dependent, but she knows what she's doing. It's a trade-off for her. Your father is overt with you and those he can get away with it with, but he also knows who he can pull this shit with and who he can't, even though he will still be oblivious at times because of his severe lack of personal insight.

This is inter-generational passing down the chain of abuse and lack of love/nurture. You are going to be the one to break the chain! Keep this in mind if the following gets a bit heavy going.

Both your parents have made a pact with each other. They are functional while they are in this bond. It's all about them. It's not about you. They fear abandonment more than anything so they have programmed you from birth and hard-wired not just your emotional response system, but your actual physical and hormonal systems as well. Your whole HPA axis is out of whack. You are a puppet on a string. They own you! Body and soul. To a certain extent anyway.

They can put you in to fight or flight or fawn mode as they see fit. This gives them a sense of power in their otherwise dull and empty lives. It also serves the dual purpose of conditioning you for learned helplessness.

Your parents do love you, in their way, in the only way they can. But this may come as a bit of a shock, they don't really love you, not in the normal healthy sense of the meaning. They don't care about you. This is all about them. And don't think they will ever change. The first rule of narcs is that they can not change. The second is that they get more mean spirited and spiteful as they get older and their youthful charms start to fade. It is a pathological condition.

Narcissism is a spectrum disorder in and of itself. Not to be confused with egotism or ego-inflation. It is usually co-morbid with another personality disorder and sometimes even outside of that particular cluster. Narcs/BPD/Histrionic are cluster B. But they can sometimes have another two lesser or greater defining disorders from the other clusters. This is just a map remember. And the map is not the territory!

People who are professionals and diagnose this sort of thing for a living all pretty much admit there is no such thing as a pure narc. It will be on a sliding scale and it will present with other pathological and dysfunctional disorders. Narcs are very rarely diagnosed. They do not seek therapy unless it is for manipulative purposes or perhaps a court order. Narcs do not see anything wrong with their behavior. It is the rest of the world that needs to be bent and brought about to their superior image. They only see themselves through other's eyes.

Now I'm not in a position to diagnose something as serious as this, and certainly not over the internet even if I was. But let's just say that I observe a pattern here. Make of this what you will.

I believe (rightly or wrongly) both your parents are at least somewhere on the narc scale, and further towards the end that makes them malignant. Your family sounds dysfunctional and I don't see any way that things will get better for you while you are around them or dependent on them. By all means try, waste years of your life, get programmed harder, to the point where you won't even be able to escape even if you wanted to.

If I was you (and I'm not) I would learn from the trials and tribulations of other people. I am in contact with people who are 70 years old who have only worked out the wicked game played on them by their narc parents. Narcs are often called 'evil' and this is by people who aren't even religious and rarely use that word. I've seen people dis-inherited at this late stage of life by dying narc parents. Their lives wasted. Gone. Over. Don't let this happen to you. You are young (as far as I can tell) and there is hope for you.

Remember the first two rules of narcs: they never change, they only get more dangerous as they get older. These are two of the most often asked and answered questions in the narc therapy community. Those asking it are usually just on the beginning of the journey - they have just taken the narc red pill, if you will - and the question is always answered the same way by those that know better, those that have had their whole lives stolen from them. This is an immutable truth about narcs, and those that ignore these truths always pay the price.

To sum up: you need to get out and go at least 'low-contact' from your parents for a while. This will be hard but will instill in you a sense of independence and it will also test their reaction. If they are only at the lower end of the scale, they may take this as a warning sign and start treating you better and with more respect. If they are at the higher end of the scale they will suffer a narcissistic injury and make your life a living a hell, perhaps even discarding you as their son to punish you for the great insult.

Going low-contact will give you a feel for things. But even this is not done lightly. You need to be stealthy. You need to play your cards close to your chest. Do not telegraph your intentions. It's like getting out of a bad relationship with a psycho-bitch bunny boiler: you do it slowly and without causing an ego insult to them. Get things set up first, then drop the bomb: oh, I found somewhere to live and a job, isn't that great?

This is just a rough outline. It's too complex to go in to more here. And remember, this is just the opinion of someone that doesn't know you or your family or your true family dynamic. Use your own discretion.



Now to your second problem: Living in NZ and not getting on with those around you.

First off, I don't find the Kiwis a bad bunch at all. In fact, I like them a lot, the ones I have known. Then again I've never been to or lived in NZ, so the people I've met are the ones that got out. People are shit everywhere. I say this without cynicism. This has just been my experience in life. If they are not totally indifferent to your plight, then they are actively envious of your successes. This is a universal with human beings. There are many good humans. But there are more that are not so good, in the higher sense. Of course most people do not steal or rob or murder or rape. But they also don't give that much of themselves either. They don't love their brother how they wish themselves to be loved. Again, just my opinion.

It sounds to me that what you are doing here - and this is a parallel to what you are doing with your family - is what I call: Breaking your national character. Have you ever noticed how Indian people all seem to speak the same language and have the same outlook on life? What about British people? They all dress the same (badly) and they have a quite mean spirited and narrow-minded view of the world outside their little island. What about those Slavs eh? The Eastern Europeans. Blood feuds going back centuries, unable to let things go and break the chain of violence.

What I've just presented here is a gross caricature of people's national characters. It is prejudiced and misinformed when it comes down to the individual. It's probably not true at the higher level as well. But it's just a map. The map is not the territory!

But never mind the prejudices of people from outside of these cultures, there is definitely a national character that people share, a mind-set unique to those growing up in and living in that environment. That is common sense.

One thing all successful men have in common is that they have 'broken their national character'. Sure, they may be proudly Indian, they may love many things and carry many things through from that culture. But they see further.

What you are doing here is seeing further. Again, you are breaking the chain. This is good. But it won't be easy.

You are astutely observing the world around you, both the macro and the micro. You are looking internally with insight to see how you feel about these things. You are questioning. You are trying to weigh up and marry the two together in to something that will make sense to you. A paradigm and a framework that will take you further.

Just as you need to get away from your parents, you need to get away from those that would hold you back. Again, do it slowly, and observe their reaction. Are they happy for you now that you have traveled a bit, been in a decent LTR for a while, earned a bit of cash? Or will they shit on you overtly or covertly. If people do not share in your joy, fuck them. You don't need people like that in you life.

That's all I have to offer on this. You can work this out yourself. You are on the path.


Now to the third and final point: your developmental disorder.

It may very well be that you have high-functioning autism. It's a label. A map. And the map is not the territory!

Along with these kinds of diagnoses you will find things like PDD/NOS (Pervasive developmental disorder/Not otherwise specified) - you can be co-morbid with both of these, for example and still have other labels thrown on top such as OCD.

These 'disorders' get thrown in to and out of the Diagnostic manual as often as fashions come and go. Doesn't mean they aren't real and that people don't have 'problems', but don't be too quick to label yourself even if others will do that job for you.

Now, I think I might have mentioned I'm not a professional?

But it seems to me more and more as I deal with people in the narc community - people being diagnosed with things like HFA, that actually they are so slightly on the spectrum, it makes you wonder why they were diagnosed at all. Maybe there's a whole industry out there to label people.

What I think is happening, and this is where I see the correlation with your upbringing (as well as others), is that yes, you do have some kind of developmental disorder, but nothing that can't be overcome with a lot of effort and work.

You understand the concept of learned helplessness. Your parents will not have socialised you from an early age. They have neglected your development to a certain extent because they did not want you growing independent and therefore able to abandon them. They have crippled you so you don't run away.

Now, autism can be a neurological condition as well. Do loud sounds bother you? Are you physically over-sensitive to light? Does water on your skin make you feel uncomfortable?

All these things are important. Get a second opinion before you label yourself. You know something is wrong. You are working out what it is. You are going to do something about it.

You need to find yourself. Find things you like doing. Find a job that you can stick (doesn't have to be glamorous - you are just learning to function to start with). Find relationships with like minded people that will validate you and nurture you.

Start off slow. Build yourself up. Just like you would do with lifting. Oh and lift as well! Learn to fight and train in MA as well also, if it is not too outside of your nature.

Don't get bogged down with LTR's just yet. You may find that you will be carrying residue from your upbringing. I would say you are vulnerable to being a co-dependent yourself right now. That's ok. I used to be like that. It got me in to a lot of trouble that I'm still paying for today. Don't let that happen to you. Never put pussy on a pedestal, but don't be afraid to enter a LTR with the right woman that comes along. Always be independent and never ever move in with a woman. Have your own place to live. Work towards that self-sufficiency if it is not possible right now.


I realise this is a lot to take in. It's a bitter pill. But it's not a white pill or a red pill or even a black pill. It's just the particular pill you need to take for your unique situation.

Years ago, before the internet and mass-communication, people suffered in silence, thought it was 'just them'. Now there are incredible online communities (this being one of a few) where you can get advice from those that have faltered along their path, but yet lived to tell their tale.

All you need to start doing right now is considering these things. Rash actions will make you repent at leisure. The idea is not to get in to trouble in the first place. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

It sounds to me that you have made the most difficult decisions and you are trying to find a way to make this life work for you. There is much hope for you. But the law of diminishing returns will apply as you get older, have less opportunities, and are more beholden to your ailing and sick parents, who won't magically just start respecting you because they are frail and weak.

Remember the two Golden rules of Narcissism. Internalise them.

The rest you can work out for yourself.

Post: #244

That's actually really interesting. I read through your post and thought it through, then searched up narcissism/narcissists.

It fit my dad almost to a T- and my mum less so but still a decent amount. I knew somewhat narcissism was something serious, but thought my parents really loved and cared about me, even if I didn't feel it, so they weren't narcissists. Like, there wasn't a reason for me to think there was anything seriously wrong with them. Looking up how narcissists treat others and their sense of self importance and when they get into a rage there's nothing I can say or do which changes how they feel- I came to this realisation about my parents independently, but the hard way. I wished I had a handbook which taught me all of this in advance.

I don't know for sure, but I don't imagine they are bad enough to want to make my life a living hell. But I can't really take anything for granted anymore...

The other thing is my sisters seem to be fine with them somewhat. Sure, they complained when parents raised them, but now they're on good terms. Because my parents "went easy" on me because of my "diagnosed autism" apparently they actually treated my sisters worse than me. Then again, my parents have gotten older, so if what you say about narcissists is true. So that raises the question, why would my sisters be on good terms with them? When I was younger and I had frequent-ish meltdowns I would claim if I could(money, etc) I would leave and never come back and sever all contact with them. Now I still don't see a reason to keep in contact if I don't have to, but I don't bother saying that except as a deadpan joke, and my mum would just rationalise it as me being autistic. I thought perhaps that was because I'm still here- if I got out I would have a clear head and want to connect with them, or at least that's what my sisters would say.

Right now they're paying for everything and cooking all my meals. I really do need a job or some money to even consider trying to leave. Maybe if they are narcissists, it's important for me to leave, even if I flat with random Kiwis I may or may not like, and burn some money. Hell, they claimed they would help me if I stayed in NZ, so maybe I could get them to pay for a lot of it. Right now I'm really hesitant of breaking free and then not having any money and then getting into real trouble. But I do realise a lot of that is likely conditioned by them. And it's important that I leave eventually. I always had a sense something was wrong but my parents/sisters tended to think it was mainly me who made myself miserable.

On HFA- Yes, I physically don't like lights, especially florescent and at night. I also don't like loud noises- why I don't like nightlife ha. There's also a few other details too.

On NZ- I think Anglo culture, particularly bogan/chav culture, is seriously broken. NZ in particular suffers- the country is too small, and people are too passive(think they are even more passive than Brits- as hard as that might be to believe) to not let the anti-intellectual, flawed bogan culture spread everywhere. I've found I can make solid friends with Americans, and to a lesser extent Euro/Asians, but generally not Anglos. It's not for a lack of trying either- and generally I think they reject me rather than vice versa.

I really have to believe the Kiwis who escape are a cut above the Kiwis who don't, if what you say is true.

Post: #245

(04-28-2018 04:24 AM)Icarus Wrote:  

(04-28-2018 03:28 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  Don't have much time at the moment: turns out he's on Venlafaxine Hydrochloride, under the Effexor brand.

Unfortunately for gammas, that which may make them (more or less) socially functional may also make them sexually dysfunctional:

Quote:Effexor XR (venlafaxine hydrochloride extended-release) is an antidepressant used to treat patients with major depressive disorders such as panic and social disorders. Effexor XR is available as a generic. Common side effects of Effexor XR include:

• nausea
• constipation
• insomnia
• dizziness
• asthenia
• drowsiness
• dry mouth
• nervousness
• strange dreams
• blurred vision
• changes in appetite or weight
• decreased sex drive
• impotence
• difficulty having an orgasm, and
• increased sweating
  

I don't have a problem with that. I would rather have gammas excluded from marriage altogether so that they don't do damage to their future spouses or their offspring.

Its clear they are destructive men on the whole. When they are unwilling to change.

Post: #246

(04-28-2018 03:28 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  Don't have much time at the moment: turns out he's on Venlafaxine Hydrochloride, under the Effexor brand.

The medication can be used off label or on label usage. Focusing on the on label use in the US. Effexor is used for Major Depressive Disorder, Generalized Anxiety Disorder, Social Anxiety Disorder, Panic Disorder, PTSD, and Cataplexy. I have to review some older post of your Step Dad to figure out which of the following he has to prescribe that medication.

Post: #247

Oh, I've known people who have been on VH in the past - mostly women, one of whom was on a mega-dose after a miscarriage. I've more a nagging suspicion that Gamma itself is a currently-undiscovered personality disorder rather than putting it into one of the already-existing baskets, particularly as it can be repaired through discipline as much as made tolerable through medication. Remember, I suspect the disorder is being created through the Familial Policies of the Left. If it can be reliably-made, you could nip it in the bud.

Post: #248

(05-01-2018 08:51 PM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  Oh, I've known people who have been on VH in the past - mostly women, one of whom was on a mega-dose after a miscarriage. I've more a nagging suspicion that Gamma itself is a currently-undiscovered personality disorder rather than putting it into one of the already-existing baskets, particularly as it can be repaired through discipline as much as made tolerable through medication. Remember, I suspect the disorder is being created through the Familial Policies of the Left. If it can be reliably-made, you could nip it in the bud.

I don't know if this makes sense, but how much of Gamma is really because we live in such boring times. With boring, I mean we're not fighting for survival or really anything.

Sometimes I wonder how much of modern day issues like narcissism, solipsism, mental disorder, gamma, omega, whatever would all just disappear the moment you had to fight for survival every day.

Even being a pure Alpha - would that get toned down if you had a hunting party of 15 and you had to actually hunt. Looking at the Alphas I know, I've always wondered how the fuck they survived, quite a few mooch off other people's work.

I was thinking about this recently - so VD has his sociosexual hierarchy, and women tend to prefer Alphas/Betas over Deltas, even though one could argue Deltas really do the work that keeps society going. What if in prehistoric times, Deltas would be the ones coming back with the meat and it was obvious who really carries the group. And what if today Deltas in general don't do so well with women because women can't directly observe the blue collar guys keeping the lights on and the shit in the toilet.

What if evolutionary psychology is jus a theory to explain current day intergender and intragender relationships, but it really only works for civilizational end times?

A lot of the stuff we're seeing just feels like the symptoms of a civilization dying. Analogous to an old person dying slowly - you can talk about how his knees have gone out, his memory isn't so good, this problem, that problem. But ultimately, he's still dying, slowly but surely. Maybe you give him a new heart, a new knee, some medications to keep everything going.

Meanwhile the 20 year old guy is completely fine.

I don't really know. It just all feels off. All. of. it. I'm at a point where I'm not sure I even know what to believe in anymore.

Post: #249

(05-01-2018 08:51 PM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  Oh, I've known people who have been on VH in the past - mostly women, one of whom was on a mega-dose after a miscarriage. I've more a nagging suspicion that Gamma itself is a currently-undiscovered personality disorder rather than putting it into one of the already-existing baskets, particularly as it can be repaired through discipline as much as made tolerable through medication. Remember, I suspect the disorder is being created through the Familial Policies of the Left. If it can be reliably-made, you could nip it in the bud.

Its environment that is key factor for any mental disorder. It can suppress or enhance maladaptive behavior. It can take beneficial trait and make it maladaptive for a person survival. When I think about your stepfather, I may have figured out something about gamma.

The follow theorizing from me is based on my knowledge of pysch and neuroscience, and personal experience with my own gamma behavior and mental illness to a degree.

One of the key issue with Gamma is disconnection to reality or rejection of thruth. This disconnection is maladaptive overcorrection of hyper-reality of person suffering from Major Depressive Disorder (MDD). A depressed person is too critical of himself and lacks element of irrationality to be functional member of society. They become too hyperfocus on negative thought process, it hard to break out of cyclical thinking. A Gamma is delusional of his own worth, but is somewhat functional in society compare to serve MDD person who close himself off from the world.

Gamma's hyperfocus is makes them to prone to extreme. In ideal world, a person in structured environment and guidance will lead a man away from the behavior of gamma. Thanks to the left, we live in a world that lacks a structured environment and guidance. Hence a lot of gammas. To go back to your stepfather, someone diagnosis as MDD and gave him Effexor to treat it. Let me segaway into some pharmacology and neuroscience in order to make a clear understanding on what is going on in the brain.

The brain is still "black box" for medicine and pharmacology. We have no idea on how selective serotonin- and norepinephrine-reuptake inhibitor (SNRI) work in the brain. We assume that increase supply of deficit neurotransmitters, should alleviate the symptoms and correct the disease. This is the most common accepted theory by science. For some neuroscientists, there is alternative theory on what SSNRI/SSRI work. This theory is that these drugs are promoting new neuron growth and thus a person is developing new neural pathway that bypass the neural pathways of maladaptive behavior.

You stepfather on Effexor with some counseling final realize that his delusional idiot. His brain under medication soon start to neural growth to bypass his neural pathway of being a 'gamma".

TLDR: Gamma behavior could be a 180 of hyper-reality of person suffering from Major Depressive Disorder.

Post: #250

(05-01-2018 10:38 PM)Thersites Wrote:  You stepfather on Effexor with some counseling final realize that his delusional idiot. His brain under medication soon start to neural growth to bypass his neural pathway of being a 'gamma".

Interesting. The alternate SSNRI/SSRI theory would match my Neural Plasticity belief: through repetition a Gamma could 'train themselves' into generating new neural pathways to erase the old behaviour. I've seen it happen without drugs, and both those men and my Stepfather are definitely Classically-Gamma. The problem is making them come to that initial realization of the false reality to begin with.

Like Sensibility, it is a problem for our times.

So, under that theory, what would your expectations be as to his sudden regression? The new pathways haven't had time to strengthen and gain dominance? My initial thought was that he might be developing tolerance and needed to increase his dosage. Could he theoretically come off the medication down the track and remain in a more functional Delta State if the pathway theory is correct?

Or is it really about chemical imbalance, and the chemical makeup of his (and other Gamma's) brain is closer to female than male? The behaviour is SO classically-female, especially the spiteful and vindictive nature.

If it is a behavioural maladaptation, does that explain how some of those negative tendencies still remain in men who were Gamma and are now Sigma? The only difference being the social dysfunctions of Sigma are sexually-attractive to women. Is Sigma then a malfunction of the Behavioural Inhibition System? I've noted before Bill and I keep very busy physically and mentally - is hyperactivity correlated? Could both Gamma and Sigma be somehow related to Oppositional Defiant Disorder, (the existence of which I'm very skeptical of).

Good food for thought, mate.