Post: #26

(02-11-2017 11:34 AM)This Is Trouble Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 11:21 AM)Dantes Wrote:  This thread is of interest to me. I looked into this awhile back. My grandfather was born in Italy, but he became an American citizen before my mother was born (in the U.S.). From what I read, it seems that I am not eligible for Italian citizenship.

Yes, I would agree with that based off what I know.

Question is...did he RENOUNCE his Italian citizenship?

If he came over as part of the large wave of Italian migration during the mid 1800's - early 1900's he automatically renounced his Italian citizenship when he gained his American citizenship. It's explicitly written into the "Petition of Naturalization" they were using at that time, and you had to sign that document to become an American citizen. Also according to Italian law at that time if you became a citizen of another country; that meant you automatically renounced your Italian citizenship. So unfortunately if his facts are correct then he's screwed any way you look at it.

Dual citizenship wasn't recognized by most countries until the 1990's. With the exception of rare facts that led to unique legal situations. Of course he could always sign up for a free trial on ancestry.com to find his Italian grandfathers naturalization paperwork. There is a chance that his family has the dates wrong. It's not like it would cost him anything to do a quick fact checking session.

Post: #27

Getting it through the great-grandmother route is more difficult, correct? Seems to be my impression.

Both my great-great's are Italian citizens, but only through my great-grandmother route. From my research (which has confusing sources), it's only possible otherwise.

Basically, the same category from the OP would have to inverse where I've bolded, but the alternative doesn't seem to exist:

" Your maternal great grandfather was born in your native country, your maternal great great grandfather was an Italian citizen at the time of his birth, your mother was born after January 1st, 1948, and neither you nor your mother nor your maternal grandmother nor your maternal great grandfather ever renounced your right to Italian citizenship."

Post: #28

There's tons and tons of Brazilians in line to get their Italian citizenship. I'm one myself, although my process should be easier because my father already has his so I don't have to trace back the whole lineage.

I'm planning on doing it on the second half of the year or early 2018, directly in Italy.

Nascimento, if you read Portuguese there's a FANTASTIC ebook online called "Sagabook". You can get it for free here by entering your email, or I can send it to you via PM if you want.

Sit down and read it cover to cover, it will take you about 2 hours. You'll find everything you need to know there.

The author of the book also has a YouTube channel. I find him irritating but he does have a ton of good information.

After you've studied those basics, if you're on Facebook there's two groups in Portuguese with thousands of people where you can post specific questions about finding documents, certificates, etc.

Check their rules before posting or they'll kick you out, specially if you ask things like "Hey how do I start??".
Cidadania italiana - Área Livre
Cidadania italiana - Faça você mesmo

Post: #29

(02-17-2017 08:42 AM)Nascimento Wrote:  Getting it through the great-grandmother route is more difficult, correct? Seems to be my impression.

Both my great-great's are Italian citizens, but only through my great-grandmother route. From my research (which has confusing sources), it's only possible otherwise.

Basically, the same category from the OP would have to inverse where I've bolded, but the alternative doesn't seem to exist:

" Your maternal great grandfather was born in your native country, your maternal great great grandfather was an Italian citizen at the time of his birth, your mother was born after January 1st, 1948, and neither you nor your mother nor your maternal grandmother nor your maternal great grandfather ever renounced your right to Italian citizenship."

Nascimento use this web app to determine your eligibility. Don't worry about it being in English. The app helps you determine your eligibility for blood right Italian citizenship according to Italian Law. Under Italian law all JS applicants are treated equally regardless of their country of origin.

Run all of your possible lines of Italian linage though the app. Both from your great-great-grandmother and great-great-grandfather. You are correct that the restrictions are more lax on males then females regarding citizenship due to legacy Italian laws. But depending on the facts it's possible to gain JS Italian citizenship even if you have an Italian female in your direct line.

The wait for a consular appointment in Brazil is crazy. It's around 12 years I believe. So you'd be better off getting all of your documents in order, traveling to Italy, and applying there after waiting the requisite 30 days in country.

Post: #30

^^ Thanks. I went through that app already however, and it seems I'm SOL. My possible line doesn't even exist as an option. It would be (if it were there):

Mother>grandmother>great-grandmother>both great-greats

The lineage is too distant for me, and it's on the side with stricter rules. Oh well. Others might be lucky, though. It's worth a look for anyone with descendance even if it seems unlikely.

Post: #31

(02-11-2017 11:16 AM)This Is Trouble Wrote:  Your maternal great grandfather was born in your native country, your maternal great great grandfather was an Italian citizen at the time of his birth, your mother was born after January 1st, 1948, and neither you nor your mother nor your maternal grandmother nor your maternal great grandfather ever renounced your right to Italian citizenship.

I'm completely lost reading this thread. My maternal great grandfather (and everyone else on my mother's side before her) was born in Italy. My mother was born before 1948. Do I qualify?

Post: #32

Yeah it can be extremely confusing. Use the following link that's been mentioned, it will give you the full description based on your case and you'll know for sure: http://www.myitaliancitizenship.com/?con...ation.html

Post: #33

(02-17-2017 07:56 PM)Nascimento Wrote:  ^^ Thanks. I went through that app already however, and it seems I'm SOL. My possible line doesn't even exist as an option. It would be (if it were there):

Mother>grandmother>great-grandmother>both great-greats

The lineage is too distant for me, and it's on the side with stricter rules. Oh well. Others might be lucky, though. It's worth a look for anyone with descendance even if it seems unlikely.

Yeah you're out of luck getting Italian citizenship the "normal" way because females born prior to 1948 can't transmit Italian citizenship by blood due to legacy Italian laws.

However according to the Italian courts the laws prior to 1948 cause discrimination on the basis of gender in the current year. Which the court system in Italy does not allow. So you can still get Italian citizenship by bringing your case to the Italian courts. At the current time the Italian government attorneys don't show up to argue against you; which is a tacit admission that the application of the law is discriminatory, so you win by default. From what I understand your attorney can act as your surrogate. So don't have to travel all the way to Italy to show up to court.

It will cost you $2,000-$4,000 for a case. Pricey for sure, but it might be worth it if you're able to earn much higher wages in the Eurozone then in Brazil. Also Italy and many EU countries offer free higher education to EU citizens. I'd recommend shopping around for Italian immigration attorneys will take your case. Prices in the south of Italy are much lower then in the north. So you may be able to recognize significant savings if you find a good immigration attorney in the south that has experience with 1948 cases. But if you want to do this I suggest you try to move on it quickly. The current left wing government doesn't argue against applicants in Italian court; but that may change if a political party that wants less immigration from abroad comes into power. That would cause attorneys fees to increase substantially, and you would no longer be guaranteed a win by default. I'll attach a list of Italian immigration lawyers that handle 1948 cases below in case you're interested. If you need to find their website just google them and they'll come up. Buona fortuna!

Italian 1948 immigration attorneys:

Lara Olivetti
[email protected]

Marco Pepe
[email protected]

Fabio Scatamacchia
[email protected]

Orsola Siclari
[email protected]

Silvia Marchese
[email protected]

Antonio Desi
[email protected]

Antonio Rossi
[email protected]

Marco Mantovani
[email protected]

Francesco Boschetti
[email protected]

Lenoci Law Firm
[email protected]

[email protected]
http://studiotamborlini.it/

Paola Caputi
[email protected]
http://mazzeschi.it/

[email protected]
http://www.italiancitizenshipconsultants.com

Simone Bertollini
SimoneBertollini.com
Phone in NYC: 212.235.1525
Submit an enquiry via their corporate website in NYC.

[email protected]

Giovanni di Ruggiero
[email protected]

Luigi Paiano
[email protected]

Marco Mellone
[email protected]

Post: #34

(02-17-2017 08:12 PM)Merenguero Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 11:16 AM)This Is Trouble Wrote:  Your maternal great grandfather was born in your native country, your maternal great great grandfather was an Italian citizen at the time of his birth, your mother was born after January 1st, 1948, and neither you nor your mother nor your maternal grandmother nor your maternal great grandfather ever renounced your right to Italian citizenship.

I'm completely lost reading this thread. My maternal great grandfather (and everyone else on my mother's side before her) was born in Italy. My mother was born before 1948. Do I qualify?

See my post above. You won't qualify using the standard procedure. But you can gain Italian citizenship though the Italian court system by bringing a 1948 case.

Post: #35

Has anyone used a service to get their Italian passport? I found one but it cost around 4k at the minimum.

Post: #36

What's the service? How long does it take?

Post: #37

For the ones that have already acquired their Italian passport, is it safe to say that the process will take more than 5 years?

Post: #38

(02-23-2017 10:06 PM)FretDancer Wrote:  For the ones that have already acquired their Italian passport, is it safe to say that the process will take more than 5 years?

It depends on where you're filing your papers and whether or not you're doing it by youself (versus hiring an expert lawyer or consultancy firm).

I have family members who got theirs in about 4 months using a consultant and doing it directly in Italy. The consultant did all the research on the lineage, filed the paperwork, arranged their flight to Italy, set up hotels, represented them when meeting with Italian authorities, etc. My family members just had to sign the bill. But it did cost a pretty penny, I'd say about 5-10k.

If you file it here in São Paulo, you can spend less than 1k if you're doing it by yourself - but it will take you about 12 years.

Post: #39

(02-23-2017 04:21 AM)Shimmy Wrote:  What's the service? How long does it take?

It's called ItalyMondo. In one service they claim 7 months. I've never used them so who knows.

Post: #40

(02-22-2017 08:07 AM)renotime Wrote:  Has anyone used a service to get their Italian passport? I found one but it cost around 4k at the minimum.

Your question is way too broad! There are companies that offer everything ranging from full turn key solutions; to searching for your ancestors birth, death, and marriage certificates in Italy; to helping you establish residence in Italy and actually apply there; to Italian lawyers helping you get citizenship though the courts in Rome.

If you're referring to a total turn key solution, then yes it is going to be very expensive. Unnecessarily so. If you're a United States citizen I wouldn't recommend this unless your rich and don't mind throwing money around just to avoid the hassle of applying yourself.

Applying yourself will cost you €500 for the application fee. Then whatever fees you have to pay to get the necessary birth, marriage, and death certificates. As well as postage. The fees are around $10-15 per certificate/apostille. Lower in the south higher in the north. Then $15 per document to pay someone to get you your ancestors birth and marriage certificates in Italy. I have friends stateside who are native Italian speakers. So unless they make me use an official translator (consulates vary on this) I won't have to pay for document translation.

All in I'm expecting to pay:

American Birth/Death/Marriage Certificates & Apostilles------------ $275.00
Postage--------------------------------------------------------- $35.20
Italian Birth and Marriage Certificate------------------------------ $30.00
Italian Citizenship Application fee (at todays rates)---------------- $540.00
----------------
Total: $880.20
=============

Not bad considering that if you don't have European ancestors the next cheapest way to get EU citizenship is to invest $1,000,000 in a business in Cyprus or Malta. Also my case covers 5 people so the per person cost is only $176.04

(02-23-2017 10:06 PM)FretDancer Wrote:  For the ones that have already acquired their Italian passport, is it safe to say that the process will take more than 5 years?

I'm in the process. But I know the answer so I'll give you my two cents anyway. That's not really a question you can generalize. It depends on the country and the region of the country you live in. A general rule is the higher the concentration of people with Italian descent the longer it will take.

For example if you live in the north east of the United States you'll have to apply in NYC. That office has a 3 year wait to get an appointment, and you have to wait another 1-3 years to get your citizenship and passport. There are a lot of people with Italian ancestry in that area. But if you live in Michigan you can get an appointment in anywhere from 2-6 weeks. Recognition takes a couple of weeks to 3 months.

If you live in Japan all appointments are walk in, and you usually get recognized in less then a month. On the other extreme the current wait in Brazil is 9 years. Recognition takes at least 3 years. However under Italian law the Italian government has to process your application and give you an answer no later then 3 years after you've submitted all of your paperwork. If they don't you can hire a lawyer and sue the government to get your citizenship though the courts in Rome. You'd have to pay the lawyers fees though, and that would cost an additional $1,000 - $3,000 per case (not per person).

If you live in the US, and you can move to the Midwest even if only for a month or two; you can cut down your wait time drastically. The other option is to fly to Italy and legally stay there for 30 days. After that time you can apply directly in the city you're staying in. Obviously you either need Italian language skills in order to do this, someone who is able to translate for you; or can use a turn key service to guide you through everything. Which will probably cost a fortune.

Post: #41

(02-23-2017 10:06 PM)FretDancer Wrote:  For the ones that have already acquired their Italian passport, is it safe to say that the process will take more than 5 years?

Sounds about right, if they don't end up losing your application meantime.

Post: #42

The computer screen tells me that the three easiest EU countries to get a passport through ancestry/descent are Italy, Ireland, and Lithuania.

In general people should be looking into this option more. In most western hemisphere countries, you're a citizen if born in the country. Including Canada, the U.S., etc. So if your mom or dad was born in Canada, the Dominican Republic, etc. and you were born in the U.S., you could be a dual citizen. Figure out the requirements and apply for a passport. I think that you're generally going to need your parent's birth certificate, your parents' marriage certificate, etc.

Both Canada and the U.S. have freedom of information laws that allow you to request your immigration records. Or you can request your parents' and grandparents' immigration records in the U.S. if you have your parent's signature or death certificate (if they're dead), and your grandparent's death certificate (if dead). You'd also need to include a copy of your birth certificate and your parent's birth certificate, showing the family connection between you and your grandparent, great-grandparent, etc.

Post: #43

I have a path to this through my paternal grandfather, but I don't know whether he was a naturalized US citizen as of my father's birth -- and therefore no longer an Italian citizen and unable to pass on JS citizenship.

But how would the Italian consulate verify whether he was or wasn't a naturalized US citizen as of any particular time? I don't think they could gather that information based on the documentation requirements.

Post: #44

Quote:If you live in Japan all appointments are walk in, and you usually get recognized in less then a month. On the other extreme the current wait in Brazil is 9 years. Recognition takes at least 3 years. However under Italian law the Italian government has to process your application and give you an answer no later then 3 years after you've submitted all of your paperwork. If they don't you can hire a lawyer and sue the government to get your citizenship though the courts in Rome. You'd have to pay the lawyers fees though, and that would cost an additional $1,000 - $3,000 per case (not per person).

So are you saying that it is possible to apply for this in a country other than your country of birth? So if I live in Asia, I can apply for this in my current country?

(03-24-2017 06:22 PM)Rossi Wrote:  

(02-23-2017 10:06 PM)FretDancer Wrote:  For the ones that have already acquired their Italian passport, is it safe to say that the process will take more than 5 years?

Sounds about right, if they don't end up losing your application meantime.

Sort of what happened with my 1st application...

Post: #45

(03-26-2017 08:20 PM)Pollito Wrote:  I have a path to this through my paternal grandfather, but I don't know whether he was a naturalized US citizen as of my father's birth -- and therefore no longer an Italian citizen and unable to pass on JS citizenship.

But how would the Italian consulate verify whether he was or wasn't a naturalized US citizen as of any particular time? I don't think they could gather that information based on the documentation requirements.

This may not exactly answer you, but both my mother (now deceased) and my sister went to the Italian Consulate in Boston (I don't know what documents were presented/not presented) and the Consulate confirmed that because my grandfather* became a US citizen before my mother was born (my grandmother didn't become a US citizen until after my mother was born, but supposedly heritage Italian citizenship is based entirely on patriarchal status), Italian citizenship could not be conferred and ended.

*Came to the US when he was 14; was in the US Army.

Post: #46

(03-26-2017 08:20 PM)Pollito Wrote:  I have a path to this through my paternal grandfather, but I don't know whether he was a naturalized US citizen as of my father's birth -- and therefore no longer an Italian citizen and unable to pass on JS citizenship.

But how would the Italian consulate verify whether he was or wasn't a naturalized US citizen as of any particular time? I don't think they could gather that information based on the documentation requirements.

They verify this by requiring you to submit his naturalization paperwork. Which has the date he was naturalized on. As well as his children's birth certificates. Which will obviously prove his children's dates of birth.

Quote:

(03-26-2017 10:07 PM)FretDancer Wrote:  [quote]If you live in Japan all appointments are walk in, and you usually get recognized in less then a month. On the other extreme the current wait in Brazil is 9 years. Recognition takes at least 3 years. However under Italian law the Italian government has to process your application and give you an answer no later then 3 years after you've submitted all of your paperwork. If they don't you can hire a lawyer and sue the government to get your citizenship though the courts in Rome. You'd have to pay the lawyers fees though, and that would cost an additional $1,000 - $3,000 per case (not per person).

So are you saying that it is possible to apply for this in a country other than your country of birth? So if I live in Asia, I can apply for this in my current country?

Yes. The Italian consulate you apply at is based upon where you're currently living. Not your place of origin. They require proof of residence though. In the United States this requirement is generally satisfied with a drivers license or ID card from the state you reside in.

Post: #47

Time for an update.

I am down to just needing one document to actually submit my application. It's my great-great grandmother's birth cert, who was born in some village in the middle of nowhere, I guess. I submitted it months ago and have nothing, but recently found more info about her so I am hopeful this pushes it over the edge.

So all documents are in possession, though some need to be certified and translated still. My hope is to time an interview with the embassy for Christmas time in the States so I can get home, too.

Total time period since I truly started working on this is closing in on about a year and 3 months.

Post: #48

Last doc came in today.

Now to get them all certified + translated + request an interview.

Post: #49

One of my Argentinian friends (a football pro, with of course Italian roots and name) is going to Italy this week, to finalize his administrative process of getting Italian citizenship. He plans on staying two weeks, in Italy, to complete every paperwork. He needs EU citizenship for football pro opportunities in Europe, as you might guess...

Post: #50

(11-20-2017 04:55 PM)Going strong Wrote:  One of my Argentinian friends (a football pro, with of course Italian roots and name) is going to Italy this week, to finalize his administrative process of getting Italian citizenship. He plans on staying two weeks, in Italy, to complete every paperwork. He needs EU citizenship for football pro opportunities in Europe, as you might guess...

Football agents have network in the government. They can speed up the process significantly, otherwise it would take more than few years.