Post: #1

This is something that I think newbs to game would have experienced at some point and it is a dilemma of mine as well. You get amazing IOIs from a girl you dont know. You approach, spit some game but screw up in the middle by acting needy again. You try to recover and act cool and aloof and she gives IOIs again. At this point, is she still genuinely interested or are you being primed to be an orbiter to being flaked on later?

A real experience of mine, more like a lesson for me. Will make it as short as possible..

Met a girl in a half day seminar at uni. Instant IOIs, eye contact, smiles and all. I approached. Had a chat, she asked my plans for the night, didnt recognize the invitation, blabbed about other stuff and instantly lost her interest afterwards.

Weeks later, she is a final year student, conducting survey experiments for her project, I volunteered. At the session, acted like I didnt recognize her, she did. At this point, I had some fun openers, credit to Mystery and Roosh and I started seeing the IOIs again. It was a one on one situation, she asked me what I was doing that night and I screwed it up AGAIN. I wasnt ready for the next step, I was just happy to go through the routine that I had prepared and leave. Thought I would never see her again.

Bumped into her at the department store again. Approached her, made small talk and told her we can hang out the following week after I came back from a trip that weekend. She said she would have classes but I called her when I came back and she didnt pick up.

Few weeks later, was walking through campus, she was sitting inside a computer lab, giving me strong eye contact. Didnt approach, she was there the next day, still didnt approach and texted her the following day on a weekend saying 'Its Hazaer. How are you?'. No response.
This was really the LOWEST POINT of my game with this girl after all this time in this forum.

A few days earlier, I saw her exiting the grocer's and I was entering. She was with a friend but it looked like she was in a hurry to leave after seeing me. I totally ignored her.

Just yesterday, she sent me a formal mail, asking if I would like to take part in another experiment she is doing. It mentioned she will contact me later to arrange a time if I filled up my details on an e-form. Note that her first survey experiment was advertised to the public and she didnt email me.

Now, what do you guys think about this? Is she just looking for validation at this point or just somebody to help her with her project or is it a sincere indirect approach from her to give me, maybe another chance?

After all these missed opportunities, what is my frame with her? Is it going to be an orbiter or is she still undecided?

A pretty long story, which I hoped will end (deleted her phone number after the she didnt respond to my text) but it keeps continuing somehow. Thanks for reading.

Appreciate your suggestions.

Post: #2

ive found escalating and going into sexual state has worked quite well for me, non escalation being the foundation for a lot of fuckups in the past.

Post: #3

Mate, I'd move on. Sounds like you put the nail in the coffin with the 'how are you' text. I think we've all been in similar situations - this is grasping at straws.
Don't read into the 'formal email' - participate in it or don't participate in it, but if you do, don't think of it as a way to 'worm' your way in there.

IMO, it's done.

Post: #4

Dead in the water. NEXT.


So many game noobs underestimate the psychological power of the NEXT.

And no, I don't mean psychological power over her.

I'm talking about self mastery.

Post: #5

Firstly good on you for:

1. Taking action; you approached and got attraction.
2. Putting any pride aside to post up a story of personal frustration, and in enough detail to allow reasonable feedback.
3. Reflecting upon what you could have done better. It is great that you have high self-awareness.

Some lessons to consider:

Quote:This was really the LOWEST POINT of my game with this girl after all this time in this forum.

1. Try not to beat yourself up. I must have had the regretful thought 'I should have persisted dammit!' hundreds of times in my seducing career. Acceptance is easier said than done, no doubt, though I would focus on (a) what you did well and (b) a few simple lessons for next time, perhaps including:

Quote:she asked my plans for the night, didnt recognize the invitation, blabbed about other stuff and instantly lost her interest afterwards ... she asked me what I was doing that night and I screwed it up AGAIN. I wasnt ready for the next step

Quote:she was sitting inside a computer lab, giving me strong eye contact. Didnt approach, she was there the next day, still didnt approach and texted her the following day on a weekend saying 'Its Hazaer. How are you?'. No response

2. Windows of opportunity pass quickly with women,
3. Women are more sensitive to rejection than men.

Now, here's my re-phrasing of a quote attributed to Jim Rohn:

4. Men must suffer from one of two risks in the game: the risk of rejection (a girl declines your advances - e.g., you ask for her number and she says 'no') or the risk of regret (an opportunity missed due to a lack of action - e.g., you don't ask for her number). The difference is rejection weighs ounces while regret weighs tons.

Related questions - you can answer me by PM if you want - how many girls have you banged? Also, why do you think you didn't take the opportunity to meet her? Answers to these questions will provide better context for strategy in the future.

Quote:Now, what do you guys think about this? Is she just looking for validation at this point or just somebody to help her with her project or is it a sincere indirect approach from her to give me, maybe another chance?After all these missed opportunities, what is my frame with her? Is it going to be an orbiter or is she still undecided?

5. Forget these questions. The only answer is NEXT.

I also would tend to agree with Dirkus - "Don't read into the 'formal email'". If you see her around again, just be friendly as usual but don't bother escalating, as you may have a distant shot at her social circle. Whatever you do, never ever ask about her lack of response or show any hurt feelings. In any case, forget her and keep meeting other women.

Post: #6

When in this story did you get her number? Was it before you called her originally? I would have tried to set something up shortly after getting her number. Since she didn't get back to you when you called her, it seems she wasn't interested.

Don't do her experiment. She's using you for validation.

Post: #7

(11-15-2016 09:51 AM)Dirkus Wrote:  Mate, I'd move on. Sounds like you put the nail in the coffin with the 'how are you' text.

What could I have texted in this case?

Based on the replies, it seems she is seeking validation. She is pretty shy and reserved so that kind of made me think that she is just hesitant to answer the phone, but then, she should have answered the text if she was interested enough.

I registered for the experiment but now, I am thinking of saying I cant make it when she calls. How is the best way to handle this call from her while demonstrating higher value. I know its a lost cause but I might as well leave on a high note.

Post: #8

(11-15-2016 09:21 AM)Hazaer Wrote:  Now, what do you guys think about this? Is she just looking for validation at this point or just somebody to help her with her project or is it a sincere indirect approach from her to give me, maybe another chance?

After all these missed opportunities, what is my frame with her? Is it going to be an orbiter or is she still undecided?

It doesn't matter what she was looking for initially. This is not your problem. What matters is that she clearly wanted to meet you and you didn't so shit. Passiveness - this is your problem.

Now "your frame with her" is that you either nice shy guy or total coward. Truth is she has been rejected by you a couple of times already. So.. she's decided. She's certain you don't like her and while you're thinking of her posting here she's not thinking about you at all now.

I'll make it more dramatic and encourage you to watch this to shake you off a bit and let it sink in

Post: #9

WOW you really burnt that set. Remember the pain so you don't make the same mistake again.

Post: #10

(11-16-2016 06:18 AM)Hazaer Wrote:  

(11-15-2016 09:51 AM)Dirkus Wrote:  Mate, I'd move on. Sounds like you put the nail in the coffin with the 'how are you' text.

What could I have texted in this case?

It was the fact you texted her PERIOD. When you called the week before - and she didn't pick up nor did she return your call or even text you back with any sort of acknowledgement, it's DONE. Then you reached out AGAIN after this with the 'how are you' just to cement your fate.

Whatever you're giving must be reciprocated in equal measure and ideally more - this is what women who are interested in you will happily do.

Just move on mate, do better next time - it's honestly no big deal.

Post: #11

Of course I won't let you go without any solution.

To me the best shot you got is to keep talking to her every time you see her to recover from the previous interactions and rebuilt what you've lost so far. Forget about asking for a date etc. Since you say you keep seeing her here and there then keep gaming her. You can flip it over certain period of time. That's what game does. Game converts.

Once you can see she's receptive and ready to see you in more private setting then you set it up. Mention what you can do together with her and see how she reacts and if she's eager. If she is willing then you have a date set up. Take her number now [not before] and prepare yourself. Congrats, now you have another shot, the best you've ever had with her. Take advantage!

Post: #12

I take all these experiences with girls as lessons not to repeat and would really like to move on to others. But they keep cropping up again and again like weeds sometimes. I have read in ROK that a real man never lets any opportunity past. Thats why there is this dilemma to let go or give it another try. Also this is a one on one session with only me and her in a room, a real player can actually cause some damage at unis in all these psychology experiments like this. And its the vacation and she is staying on campus so lesser inhibitions on her part. Perfect daygame setting if there ever is one. Just feels like a waste to not go if I happen to be free in one of the slots.

I can take this as another opportunity in the next session to run new game material by her but like you said, I am not going to ask her out or take her number. I have deleted it. But sometimes, it is annoying to feel a bit used by a girl for her stuff like this experiment, but am getting a movie ticket for it so its just another opportunity to just shoot the shit.

Post: #13

This sounds like a confusing situation and perhaps one-sided interest on your part? In order to learn game and date women, you have to be willing to put in full effort until she gives you a firm rejection. You have to be pushy enough to ask her out and spend time with her.

It sounds like you are weak sauce.

Better to be pushy and annoying, rather than indecisive and complaining later.

Get her phone number, get her facebook, talk to her when you see her. Say Hello, SMILE at her.

STOP this weak game stuff of ignoring her and being a wimp who is scared of talking to girls.

She may have found another boyfriend or you may have scared her off somehow. Maybe she doesn't find you physically attractive. But you have to put both feet into the Game.

Simply text her or ask her if "she wants to get beers/coffee or lunch some time." If she says no, then move on to the next girl.

At least you will have your answer instead of complaining and wondering if she likes you.

Post: #14

Also, why are you deleting girls numbers?
Only delete a girls number if you have a new girlfriend and don't want her to see other girls on your phone.
You also said you are still interested in this girl - so why delete her number cuz it will be embarrassing if you have to ask for it again.
Does she even live near you? If she lives near you, ask her for dinner or stop by her house if you are in the area.

Post: #15

I have tried calling her, texting her with no replies. And then she ignores me when she sees me. You are right that she was not interested. I think Roosh and a lot of guys here advocate not to try contacting a girl more than 2 times when you dont get a response.

Post: #16

(11-26-2016 10:10 PM)Hazaer Wrote:  I have tried calling her, texting her with no replies. And then she ignores me when she sees me. You are right that she was not interested. I think Roosh and a lot of guys here advocate not to try contacting a girl more than 2 times when you dont get a response.

Its great you are learning game and improving your social skills.
But it sounds like you are misinterpreting IOIs as actual interest, when she may just be friendly because she is teaching a class or project.

For instance, just because a hot waitress or bartender is talking to you does not mean she actually wants to sleep with you, she may just be after a better tip and more money.

So, it seems like you are going after girls way out of your league and girls who are friendly (due to positions of power) but don't want a romantic relationship.

Also there are 3 steps to dating: (1) getting a phone number, (2) getting a relationship, (3) having sex.
It sounds like you need to work on "creating a relationship" before a girl will want to have sex with you.

Focus on building a relationship with a girl (average-looking girls) through jokes, meals, music, and movies.

Post: #17

Hazaer, since we’ve chatted I wanted to elaborate on my post above.

Focus on small goals and having fun

Firstly I want to acknowledge your determination to improve. It takes guts to psychologically look yourself in the mirror and not just see areas for improvement but moreover to take action on them.

I encourage you to take the pressure off yourself to get laid, and instead focus on (a) setting small, attainable goals, whilst (b) relaxing and enjoying the intrinsic process of interactions.

Why this focus?

On the surface these may seem like the kind of trite, non-specific goals that float around the internet by the dozen, however sometimes the simplest advice can also be the most powerful.

I've chosen these 2 points because you seem to {a} feel down about your lack of progress, {b} look 10 moves ahead and analyse a lot of small-picture details (a strength in many contexts but perhaps not in this one), and, {c} not include much in the way of playfulness in your interactions (feel free to correct me though, there's only so much to get via text).

These factors will help you significantly because by setting specific and attainable goals in the shorter term, you will experience a greater sense of growth and feel more confident [1], and interacting with people for the sake of enjoyment only -- rather than as a means to an end -- will not only make the process more sustainable but will also magnetically attract people to you. Especially cute girls

One example of a mantra that integrates both concepts of external outcomes and internal processes: “Whenever I go shopping, I will make an effort to engage fully with the staff and see if I can make them smile!”

Tight-knit circles may call for long game

Knowing more about your social context now (a relatively small town and uni) is key, because the meaning behind my advice of ‘next’ is gonna be different compared to a big city.

Due to the inherent focus on fast seduction within pickup forums, in addition to the more general, tech-related expectation of constant attention and entertainment, I think more emphasis is naturally placed on quick-fire tactics and rapid result-seeking here. Whilst taking opportunity when it arises it always gonna be central to success in escalating, if you’re in a small town or uni, it will nonetheless be important to cultivate a calm, patient demeanor with a view for the longer-term.

The meaning of ‘next’ in this case

Nexting in a small town may be more psychological than behavioural. Due to the sheer mass of people and geographic spread of a big city, you can easily move on to a new girl and just not bother contacting the previous girl again. In a small town, you are likely to see the girl again, therefore it will take discipline to maintain a friendly face whilst internally refraining from escalating or showing hurt for having your approach rejected.

In this case, by ‘next’ I mean dropping all immediate escalation or sexualisation with the girl, whilst slowly working your way into her social circle and/or leveraging social proof from her when approaching others. In over-correcting the social imbalance caused by neediness and oneitis, game rookies (myself included in the past) commonly make the mistake of nexting too hard in the face of rejection [2]; a better alternative is to either patiently persist or drop the explicit “let’s just be friends”, then move on her social circle or otherwise leverage the social proof.

How to handle rejection in general

(This is not about your actions Hazaer, just broad advice which is nonetheless helpful as you're likely to see the girl again.)

When a girl flakes on you or seriously rejects your advances, never ever Ever show your hurt feelings or even mention the lack of interest during a follow up. Just re-engage with the usual fun vibe, as if it never happened. Not only does focusing on rejection drain your energy [3], it associates you with the typical no-game whiney loser [4] and is not going to improve compliance [5]. Only in the case of truly serious disrespect would I be inclined to call a girl out, and even in this case the only likely benefit is personal catharsis. A girl who flakes on you at the last minute will almost certainly NOT self-reflect or learn anything from your objection. Only when a girl becomes emotionally invested will you be able to employ criticism and the fear of loss. RVF member Farmageddon and others eloquently elaborate on this theme in the thread noted below.

Links

[1] Sandy Shepard: “Setting S.M.A.R.T. Goals”
[2] Farmageddon: “RE: Dealing with Flakey Girls“
[3] Veloce: “RE: Throwing shit on girl when she ignores you after first date“
[4] Example ‘byefelipe’ instagram page
[5] StrikeBack: “RE: Dealing with Flakey Girls“
[6] Heartiste: “Should You Call Out A Girl’s Bad Behavior?”

Bonus tracks on nexting

1. Gang Starr (Guru R.I.P) - "Ex Girl To The Next Girl"

"You and I are the past, c'est la vie, much respect girl,
But now you're my ex-girl & I'm out with the next girl."





2. K Camp ft. Too Short, YG, Lil Boosie - "Cut Her Off (Remix)"

"You say I ain't the man, are you delirious?"
Boos' you just gon' cut me off?
I told you I was serious!"

Post: #18

(11-28-2016 05:05 AM)Dream Medicine Wrote:  Hazaer, since we’ve chatted I wanted to elaborate on my post above.

Focus on small goals and having fun

Firstly I want to acknowledge your determination to improve. It takes guts to psychologically look yourself in the mirror and not just see areas for improvement but moreover to take action on them.

I encourage you to take the pressure off yourself to get laid, and instead focus on (a) setting small, attainable goals, whilst (b) relaxing and enjoying the intrinsic process of interactions.

Why this focus?

On the surface these may seem like the kind of trite, non-specific goals that float around the internet by the dozen, however sometimes the simplest advice can also be the most powerful.

I've chosen these 2 points because you seem to {a} feel down about your lack of progress, {b} look 10 moves ahead and analyse a lot of small-picture details (a strength in many contexts but perhaps not in this one), and, {c} not include much in the way of playfulness in your interactions (feel free to correct me though, there's only so much to get via text).

These factors will help you significantly because by setting specific and attainable goals in the shorter term, you will experience a greater sense of growth and feel more confident [1], and interacting with people for the sake of enjoyment only -- rather than as a means to an end -- will not only make the process more sustainable but will also magnetically attract people to you. Especially cute girls

One example of a mantra that integrates both concepts of external outcomes and internal processes: “Whenever I go shopping, I will make an effort to engage fully with the staff and see if I can make them smile!”

Tight-knit circles may call for long game

Knowing more about your social context now (a relatively small town and uni) is key, because the meaning behind my advice of ‘next’ is gonna be different compared to a big city.

Due to the inherent focus on fast seduction within pickup forums, in addition to the more general, tech-related expectation of constant attention and entertainment, I think more emphasis is naturally placed on quick-fire tactics and rapid result-seeking here. Whilst taking opportunity when it arises it always gonna be central to success in escalating, if you’re in a small town or uni, it will nonetheless be important to cultivate a calm, patient demeanor with a view for the longer-term.

The meaning of ‘next’ in this case

Nexting in a small town may be more psychological than behavioural. Due to the sheer mass of people and geographic spread of a big city, you can easily move on to a new girl and just not bother contacting the previous girl again. In a small town, you are likely to see the girl again, therefore it will take discipline to maintain a friendly face whilst internally refraining from escalating or showing hurt for having your approach rejected.

In this case, by ‘next’ I mean dropping all immediate escalation or sexualisation with the girl, whilst slowly working your way into her social circle and/or leveraging social proof from her when approaching others. In over-correcting the social imbalance caused by neediness and oneitis, game rookies (myself included in the past) commonly make the mistake of nexting too hard in the face of rejection [2]; a better alternative is to either patiently persist or drop the explicit “let’s just be friends”, then move on her social circle or otherwise leverage the social proof.

How to handle rejection in general

(This is not about your actions Hazaer, just broad advice which is nonetheless helpful as you're likely to see the girl again.)

When a girl flakes on you or seriously rejects your advances, never ever Ever show your hurt feelings or even mention the lack of interest during a follow up. Just re-engage with the usual fun vibe, as if it never happened. Not only does focusing on rejection drain your energy [3], it associates you with the typical no-game whiney loser [4] and is not going to improve compliance [5]. Only in the case of truly serious disrespect would I be inclined to call a girl out, and even in this case the only likely benefit is personal catharsis. A girl who flakes on you at the last minute will almost certainly NOT self-reflect or learn anything from your objection. Only when a girl becomes emotionally invested will you be able to employ criticism and the fear of loss. RVF member Farmageddon and others eloquently elaborate on this theme in the thread noted below.

Links

[1] Sandy Shepard: “Setting S.M.A.R.T. Goals”
[2] Farmageddon: “RE: Dealing with Flakey Girls“
[3] Veloce: “RE: Throwing shit on girl when she ignores you after first date“
[4] Example ‘byefelipe’ instagram page
[5] StrikeBack: “RE: Dealing with Flakey Girls“
[6] Heartiste: “Should You Call Out A Girl’s Bad Behavior?”

Bonus tracks on nexting

1. Gang Starr (Guru R.I.P) - "Ex Girl To The Next Girl"

"You and I are the past, c'est la vie, much respect girl,
But now you're my ex-girl & I'm out with the next girl."





2. K Camp ft. Too Short, YG, Lil Boosie - "Cut Her Off (Remix)"

"You say I ain't the man, are you delirious?"
Boos' you just gon' cut me off?
I told you I was serious!"

Those tracks are neat. Nexting was never a problem for me, even from way back before Game and I might have lost some birds that way but it also gives the ability to move on. Nexting softer is something I am learning, to acknowledge a girl who may have rejected you. Being a sore loser is never attractive and girls can sense the difference between being dis-interested and butthurt. I think the key is to show subtle dis-interest. If the guy, still shows the same fun vibe, she might think its ok to attention whore and then flake when he tries to escalate. Sometimes, I feel a girl's mind is about 80% made up before she even talks to you. If she senses you are a fun guy, she might have fun and buy up your attention when you could be using it on other girls who might be more reserved but are interested but she might never put out. I have had experiences where after some rejection I show dis-interest, they then show interest and then they try to reject again. Its like a never ending cycle till you cut her off totally.

It is strange but cashier girls were the ones where I actually applied game techniques I learnt first, they are always there and they are bored so they can be opened easily. You see them everytime so you got to have new material. I often have some jokes which crack them up or some funny observations. The latter comes with practice but appears more spontaneous to people.

Yes, I would recommend any newbie who is thinking of game to move to a big city over a small city even though that might be known to be hard for gaming. Game I suspect might not be very effective in smaller cities because everybody is scared to move out of their friend circle. More difficult to make quality male friends and tougher to get the girls. Like you said, social circle game is key in smaller cities but if one can get into those circles, you dont need much game, you will get lucky by luck if you have been orbiting her long enough.

Post: #19

One mental trick is that Men can be pussy-teases as well.

Forget about women being cock-teases, men can play the game and be flirtatious for attention as well.
There's no reason to next a girl or ignore a girl unless she clearly rejects you and doesn't want to talk to you.
Live in the world of "Maybe" - its not always a "yes bang" or "no bang" world.

The "yes/no bang" is for thirsty desperate guys with no game.
Game is about spinning plates with lot of girls and creating desire for a man.
Its about making a girl desire a man.

Building relationships with girls, and keeping up the intensity of the relationships.