Post: #451

I'm not as knowledeable about thyroid as TRT, and YardDog has a good post above.

My own TSH has been above 3 for several years, even now when I am feeling fine. The other thyroid markers look fine, no antibodies and neither T3 or T4 (free and total) are low.

Rio, do you have a full thyroid panel yet?

Post: #452

I second what YardDog said, your TSH is pretty high.

I am 30, my labs came in last week and I was at 1.5 TSH.

Here you go RIO, this is a good guideline from Excel Male, a great resource for TRT info that I also recommend: http://www.excelmale.com/showthread.php?...nt-Therapy

Post: #453

Man this sucks so much.

I've been doing more reading and I've been refered to a urologist on the 31st December. NHS take so long. Other forums are saying that urologists won't help at all and I'll be wasting my time. I feel like just ordering some clomid online and saying to hell with it.

Freaking private consultations cost a whopping £500 ph in London.

Post: #454

Thanks for all of the info guys, especially YardDog.

I'm not paying out of pocket now, but probably will be if I go anywhere else. I may have to bite the bullet and do it though. After doing some research last night I saw that increasing my TSH probably wasnt what I needed to do.

Gonna check out these links you guys posted and see what I can come up with. I hsve partial labs but it looks like I need more done. Hopefully I can convince my doctor to do them and get it covered by my insurance.

Thanks a ton guys.

Post: #455

Some T updates after 4 weeks of use, started with levels at 550. Free test levels were lower though, 10.96. I'm using test enanthate, sold OTC in Peru and Colombia, where I am now.

I've been doing 110mg every 5 days, equivalent of about 155mg/week.

I didn't notice much at all for the first 2 weeks, both in the gym and in daily life.

At about 3 weeks in, I realized that for the first time in awhile, I just hadn't been watching TV at all--usually I watch a ton of shows and sports. Felt a lot more energy to just go around and do things in the city and meet people. Going out at night also felt a lot more appealing.

3 weeks was also when I started to get more morning wood--not every day, but noticeably more present, even if I had jacked it the night before.

4 weeks in I started to notice results in the gym. With bad rest and travel, and even losing some weight, my bench went up by 10 pounds for 3x5, from 175 to 185. The same thing happened the next day on my deadlift and smaller accessory exercises.

I tend to get dissatisfied with my location and move quite often, but have felt much more satisfied in my circumstances (it also helps that Medellin is awesome, so that factor is probably 65% city, 35% T).

I'm going to get bloodwork in 2 weeks to make sure everything is in place, and I also anticipate some issues as my natural production shuts down. But I'm pretty sold on T at this point, and glad I jumped into the experiment. To be continued.

Post: #456

I took a test today, for total testosterone as well as a bunch of other things and expect my results early next week.

I got up at 3:30AM and couldn't get back to sleep, my blood was drawn at 7:30AM, will this corrupt the results significantly? Me being up so early would surely give the equivalent of a mid/late-morning testosterone level rather than an early morning one which is what is recommended.

Any input will be greatly appreciated.

DG

Post: #457

(10-19-2015 09:34 AM)DarkGable Wrote:  I took a test today, for total testosterone as well as a bunch of other things and expect my results early next week.

I got up at 3:30AM and couldn't get back to sleep, my blood was drawn at 7:30AM, will this corrupt the results significantly? Me being up so early would surely give the equivalent of a mid/late-morning testosterone level rather than an early morning one which is what is recommended.

Any input will be greatly appreciated.

DG

Poor sleep and booze will affect testosterone levels. They'll come in lower than normal. This will increase the likelihood that the doc would put you on test.

What's the issue?

Post: #458

(10-19-2015 09:47 AM)PUA_Rachacha Wrote:  Poor sleep and booze will affect testosterone levels. They'll come in lower than normal. This will increase the likelihood that the doc would put you on test.

What's the issue?

Thanks for the reply.

I've been suffering the following for some years:

• Mental fog and poor concentration/focus
• Lack of drive
• Depressed/low mood
• Low energy levels and constant fatigue
• Low motivation
• Fat build up
  

I still have regular morning wood and am pretty horny most of the time.

I actually paid for the blood test myself as my NHS doctor felt it wasn't necessary due to my age (31) and decent libido, if the tests come in with low T I will use that to persuade him to conduct further investigation.

Post: #459

(10-20-2015 01:45 AM)DarkGable Wrote:  

(10-19-2015 09:47 AM)PUA_Rachacha Wrote:  Poor sleep and booze will affect testosterone levels. They'll come in lower than normal. This will increase the likelihood that the doc would put you on test.

What's the issue?

Thanks for the reply.

I've been suffering the following for some years:

• Mental fog and poor concentration/focus
• Lack of drive
• Depressed/low mood
• Low energy levels and constant fatigue
• Low motivation
• Fat build up
  

I still have regular morning wood and am pretty horny most of the time.

I actually paid for the blood test myself as my NHS doctor felt it wasn't necessary due to my age (31) and decent libido, if the tests come in with low T I will use that to persuade him to conduct further investigation.

Yeah, once you get your results, post them here and we'll try to tease out what's going on.

Post: #460

My results came through yesterday, the testosterone result is 17.2 mol/L which is 496mg/dl. Please note I'm 31 and overweight.

The rest of the endocrinology is as follows:

• TSH-0.89 mIU/L
• Free Thyroxine-16.2 pmol/L
• Cortisol-269 nmol/L
• 25 OH Vitamin D-57nmol/L
  

Post: #461

(10-21-2015 01:44 AM)DarkGable Wrote:  My results came through yesterday, the testosterone result is 17.2 mol/L which is 496mg/dl. Please note I'm 31 and overweight.

The rest of the endocrinology is as follows:

• TSH-0.89 mIU/L
• Free Thyroxine-16.2 pmol/L
• Cortisol-269 nmol/L
• 25 OH Vitamin D-57nmol/L
  

Looks good. Lose some weight and at least your free testosterone will pick up. I wouldn't advise going on TRT unless you are really symptomatic.

Post: #462

After feeling blah for a while and reading some positive reviews here of Defy Medical, I decided "what the heck -- I'll pay for some labs and see what they have to say."

Me:
49yo
5'11"
185 pounds
~17% body fat
Decent diet, No smoke, 2+ red wines/night
Lift weights 3 times a week, walk/jog 3-4 times a week
Missing left nut (motorcycle wreck 1992)

Labs:
Total T: 696 (348 - 1197)
Free T: 10.8 (6.8 - 21.5)
Estradiol: 47 (8.0 - 35.0)
DHEA: 119 (72 - 375)
TSH: 1.8 (.45 - 4.5)
LH: 10.1 (1.7 - 8.6)

Had my consult today with Dr. Saya. He said I had a somewhat "unique" lab panel:

Total T of 696 is fine for a 49 year old.
Free T of 10.8 is a bit on the low end.
Estradiol of 47 is much too high.

He did not advise TRT. But suggested the following supplements to get my estrogen down and balance out the hormones.

All OTC except the Anastrozole (Arimidex):

Anastrozole .25/DIM 200mg Twice per week
DHEA 20mg daily
DHEA 20mg/Pregnenolone 50mg nightly
Vitamin D3 5,000iu daily.
Stinging Nettle Root Daily (no dosage advised)

He also suggested a B-12 compound injection called "Lipo-C," 1-2ml twice weekly to burn fat. I was going to blow this off as it seemed like a money-making extra, but my wife says she's heard great things about it (and she's done a lot of research on fat-burners), so I decided to buy a bottle.

He said effects from the above meds won't be felt for at least 4 weeks, but I'm anxious to get started and see if I feel any more like my younger self.

Post: #463

Your TT is certainly respectable at your age. Fat could be improved. E2 isn't terrible but you could Easily control with anastrazole. I take DIM as well. Good luck on your journey.

Post: #464

(10-22-2015 01:03 AM)JayR Wrote:  After feeling blah for a while and reading some positive reviews here of Defy Medical, I decided "what the heck -- I'll pay for some labs and see what they have to say."

Had my consult today with Dr. Saya. He said I had a somewhat "unique" lab panel:

Total T of 696 is fine for a 49 year old.
Free T of 10.8 is a bit on the low end.
Estradiol of 47 is much too high.

He did not advise TRT. But suggested the following supplements to get my estrogen down and balance out the hormones.

He also suggested a B-12 compound injection called "Lipo-C," 1-2ml twice weekly to burn fat. I was going to blow this off as it seemed like a money-making extra, but my wife says she's heard great things about it (and she's done a lot of research on fat-burners), so I decided to buy a bottle.

Why is E so high, are you eating a lot of soy?

Interested in your experience with the Lipo-C, please report back after a while.

My update: after 3.5 months on TRT, and adjusting the dose up 20%, I feel great. Just ran my "A" race for the season, and broke all previous personal records in the swim, bike, and run by a huge margin. Workouts have been much higher quality and recovery faster.

Post: #465

(10-22-2015 09:03 AM)ThrustMaster Wrote:  Your TT is certainly respectable at your age. Fat could be improved. E2 isn't terrible but you could Easily control with anastrazole. I take DIM as well. Good luck on your journey.

Right, I definitely want to drop the body fat down a couple percentage points. My hope is that getting the estradiol down and free T up will have me motivated to hit the gym more frequently and hit it harder while I'm there.

This hormone business as you get older seems to be a vicious cycle -- T goes down, motivation to exercise fades, fat accumulates, E goes up, repeat...

Trying to break this cycle with the anastrazole and DHEA. Maybe this Lipo-C stuff will do something, too.

I'll post new labs in 3 months after my followup.

Post: #466

Quote:Why is E so high, are you eating a lot of soy?

Interested in your experience with the Lipo-C, please report back after a while.

My update: after 3.5 months on TRT, and adjusting the dose up 20%, I feel great. Just ran my "A" race for the season, and broke all previous personal records in the swim, bike, and run by a huge margin. Workouts have been much higher quality and recovery faster.

I don't eat soy, but I blame booze for my high E number. I drink a couple glasses of red wine nearly every night, sometimes even more on the weekends. I was up front about that with Dr. Saya, and he didn't seem concerned about it, but it's a bad habit. My hope is that cutting back on the wine and adding the aromatase inhibitor should drop that E right down.

From "The Testosterone Syndrome":

"One of the main effects of alcohol is to turn down the P450 system in the liver. That system is necessary to properly eliminate estrogen from the body. Meanwhile, age and perhaps a zinc deficiency has increased aromatase in his body and, consequently, more and more of his testosterone is being turned into estrogen. Which stimulates SHBG (Sex Hormone Binding Globulin), which binds testosterone, which again repeats the cycle."

Yup, I'll post about the Lipo-C in a few months.

Congrats on your multiple PRs -- that's awesome.

Post: #467

One thing that helped keep my E down while on TRT is brussel sprouts, marinated in freshly squeezed lemon juice and garlic, splashed with a bit of coconut oil, salted and peppered to taste, and roasted in the oven at 400 degrees for 25 minutes.

After a few servings of this, I'm like a raging bull in a china shop, wanting to fap 5 times a day or fuck anything that moves like a dog in a dog park on a sunny day. I noticed this effect so I decided to test my hypothesis.

I ate no brussel sprouts for 1 month and pulled my E, which came back at 33. A little high, but not disastrously high. I felt fine, just normal.

Then I ate brussel sprouts daily as described above for 1 month, and pulled my E again, with no other changes to my TRT, and no Arimidex. It came back at 27.

It's amazing how a six point swing in E makes a world of difference.

Post: #468

Watch out with the DHEA when your E2 is already high.
90mg daily of oral DHEA raised my E2 from 26 to 44.

Apparently, in some people the liver converts ingested DHEA into E2 and T (and unfortunately the E2 conversion is far more important). I don't remember the source where I read this, but it was definitely true for me.
I did not have this problem on 30mg daily or with sublingual intake.

edit: This conversion does not happen through aromatase. When my E2 was 26, I was on transdermal T and my TT was 1100 ng/dl - so my aromatase activity is very low. Thus the arimidex will likely not stop the DHEA to E2 conversion if you're prone to it.

That being said: don't let this discourage you from taking DHEA. I'm still on and it's essential to my well being, but keep on eye on your E2.

Post: #469

(10-22-2015 10:54 AM)PhDre Wrote:  Watch out with the DHEA when your E2 is already high.
90mg daily of oral DHEA raised my E2 from 26 to 44.

Apparently, in some people the liver converts ingested DHEA into E2 and T (and unfortunately the E2 conversion is far more important). I don't remember the source where I read this, but it was definitely true for me.
I did not have this problem on 30mg daily or with sublingual intake.

edit: This conversion does not happen through aromatase. When my E2 was 26, I was on transdermal T and my TT was 1100 ng/dl - so my aromatase activity is very low. Thus the arimidex will likely not stop the DHEA to E2 conversion if you're prone to it.

That being said: don't let this discourage you from taking DHEA. I'm still on and it's essential to my well being, but keep on eye on your E2.

Thanks, I didn't know this. He's putting me on 40mg/day (20 in the morning 20 in the evening). I'll keep an eye on it for sure.

Post: #470

I ack on DHEA raising your e2. Be careful. Get your e2 in the mid 20's. And for those that don't know DIM is he extract of broccoli, kale and other cruciferous veggies. Works great.

Post: #471

Do you lose the gains you make while on test after going off it?

Post: #472

When I began my journey I was 32-36% bf 190lbs. Took 5 years and heavy diet and lifestyle changes I now and 190 with 9% bf, 6 pack, cut and big. I'm 49.

It won't occur overnight, you need to commit to lifestyle changes if you want to become a Greek demigod.

Post: #473

If you're on trt it's for life. You should never go off.

Post: #474

(10-22-2015 11:15 AM)JayR Wrote:  

(10-22-2015 10:54 AM)PhDre Wrote:  Watch out with the DHEA when your E2 is already high.
90mg daily of oral DHEA raised my E2 from 26 to 44.

Apparently, in some people the liver converts ingested DHEA into E2 and T (and unfortunately the E2 conversion is far more important). I don't remember the source where I read this, but it was definitely true for me.
I did not have this problem on 30mg daily or with sublingual intake.

edit: This conversion does not happen through aromatase. When my E2 was 26, I was on transdermal T and my TT was 1100 ng/dl - so my aromatase activity is very low. Thus the arimidex will likely not stop the DHEA to E2 conversion if you're prone to it.

That being said: don't let this discourage you from taking DHEA. I'm still on and it's essential to my well being, but keep on eye on your E2.

Thanks, I didn't know this. He's putting me on 40mg/day (20 in the morning 20 in the evening). I'll keep an eye on it for sure.

What kind of DHEA are you taking? I'm using transdermal and doesn't affect my E2 at all. I love DHEA. My levels were previously normal low, but with 30mg TD a day I'm back to upper range and I just feel better all around.

I also hear good things about slow release micronized DHEA pills from Mcphersons.

To the other posters point, don't use the cheap DHEA pills. That 1st pass on the liver can turn it into E2 and cause issues.

The cool thing about Defy is that they give you powdered Arimidex too so if you're going too low or too high it's easy to adjust it on your own.

Finding the sweet spot for E2 can be like bobbing for apples. In my experience it's the trickiest hormone to get dialed in. And like what Cleanslate says, a little fluctuation can make a big difference in your mood, libido, water retention and much more.

I would think the Arimidex and dropping the booze will make you loose weight quickly. With that high of E2 you're likely retaining a good amount of water.

Post: #475

^I'm taking oral DHEA.
No they are not cheap pills, they come from a compounding pharmacy (DHEA is a prescription medicine over here).

When I open the capsule and I dissolve the powder under my tongue, I don't get the E2 bump.