Post: #151

Mexico enforces the border, refuses any social or medical services to foreigners, and scams people's families who lose their passports out of thousands of dollars.

Mexico treats the poor from central America like absolute scum and blondies like me get shot, raped, and stolen from in half of Mexico.

Maybe immigrants bashing westerners lack of sufficient deference in their hospitality should instead look to how their own countries treat foreigners and then think about showing actual gratitude before having your hissy fit about how wacist the whites and blacks in America are being for wanting to secure a future for their children in the country their ancestors built up.

Post: #152

(06-13-2015 08:08 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  I have nothing but contempt for cheap Indian IT workers especially the ones used to manage helpdesks.

The level of idiocy is astounding. Beyond stupid level mistakes and being unable to think outside of the box there's also an annoying language barrier. God forbid you didn't explicitly state something.

When i'm king of my company, the first thing i'm doing is closing down all of them. I can name a ton of Americans who can not only do the job better but do it for roughly the same cost as those nitwits.

There's already been a very large shift of call desk jobs to Manila from India. Indians had a few years run where many corporations were trying them out but they failed in almost all metrics. The biggest barrier is the accent and lack of cultural connection.

They just couldn't banter with Americans like some sweet pinays can either. Indians tend to have off putting personalities so when they are on the phone and you have problems then all those issues become magnified.

The call center pinay I banged had a completely American accent. You could swear she grew up in the states. There's also something deeply touching about going to the Philippines as an American and banging the call center help that services U.S. customers.

"Just doin my patriotic duty ma'am."

Post: #153

You can stop this all in one stroke by not encouraging Open Source Movement. I have proposed this idea earlier for a SMART OPEN SOURCE system where by corporations who use my code will have to pay Royalties.

Open Source Movement is the biggest Con created by the corporations to get free code with no workers under their payroll. They are basically lifting codes created by nerds in America and making millions out of it by hiring Indians...Who do nothing to contribute to create codes etc..

Everything starts with a program.

NodeJS, JQuery, JavaScript, Linux, PHP etc were created by individuals who had no intention to screw humanity, now, these same programs are used by corporations while giving nothing back to the open source community while making trillions and screwing Americans themselves.

I'm sorry, America is the biggest Ignorant culprit in all of these. Americans should stop giving away codes for free to these parasites who give nothing back to the community.

Look at the Irony. Americans create programs, give it away for free, Indians learn it all and then work for American corporations who make millions out of a free program created by Americans themselves who now can't find any job This is nuts

The fault lies in America and the power too..Stop Supporting Open Source Movement ..Its a con....that gives away code for free to corporations. They make you feel guilty by not sharing your codes while making millions out of it.

Post: #154

(06-14-2015 12:10 AM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

(06-13-2015 08:08 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  I have nothing but contempt for cheap Indian IT workers especially the ones used to manage helpdesks.

The level of idiocy is astounding. Beyond stupid level mistakes and being unable to think outside of the box there's also an annoying language barrier. God forbid you didn't explicitly state something.

When i'm king of my company, the first thing i'm doing is closing down all of them. I can name a ton of Americans who can not only do the job better but do it for roughly the same cost as those nitwits.

There's already been a very large shift of call desk jobs to Manila from India. Indians had a few years run where many corporations were trying them out but they failed in almost all metrics. The biggest barrier is the accent and lack of cultural connection.

They just couldn't banter with Americans like some sweet pinays can either. Indians tend to have off putting personalities so when they are on the phone and you have problems then all those issues become magnified.

The call center pinay I banged had a completely American accent. You could swear she grew up in the states. There's also something deeply touching about going to the Philippines as an American and banging the call center help that services U.S. customers.

"Just doin my patriotic duty ma'am."

http://www.thephilippinepride.com/why-wo...r-suicide/

It is such an awful job. I had a few call center jobs in my late teens and early 20s part-time while I was in school. It is the worst shit ever. If one person had the flu, the whole damn floor would be sick within a few days. The most thankless job ever. Anyone that lives in a poor country has to do this to survive, my heart goes out to them, for real.

Post: #155

(06-14-2015 01:11 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  http://www.thephilippinepride.com/why-wo...r-suicide/

It is such an awful job. I had a few call center jobs in my late teens and early 20s part-time while I was in school. It is the worst shit ever. If one person had the flu, the whole damn floor would be sick within a few days. The most thankless job ever. Anyone that lives in a poor country has to do this to survive, my heart goes out to them, for real.

The main complaints I heard were the working hours. Many call center girls are nocturnal and they end up adopting very unhealthy habits like partying after work then eating at odd hours. Plus the whole social situation is wacky when you see the same people after work and it's hard to meet new people. The sleep issue throws the body's natural cycle off and that leads to depression in some.

Salary wise though the call center job is pretty good by Filipino standards. It's very good in fact when you take into consideration some of the ancillary benefits. The point they were making is that some people with other professional credentials end up working call center to get by. That's really not the fault of the call center industry though.

It's more the fault of the Philippines' economy as a whole which misallocates and underutilizes professionals. This is why a big professional brain drain has been happening in the last 30 years there with people becoming overseas foreign workers who send remittances back home.

A good example of call center wages is like 15-20k pesos ($331-441) a month to start. Then they can go all the way up to 30-35k in a senior type role. Here's a comparison: a security card makes like 7-10k. An average cashier job in SM supermarket chain something similar. A restaurant it's like 35 pesos per hour..so maybe like 6k a month. A girl in a hotel reception job maybe 12-15k tops. Government jobs are pretty shit money too but they have ok benefits from what I hear.

This is nothing to us but it's very significant for a filipino. A call center job can easily put them in the middle class range.

A lot of the girls live in female only boarding house type apartments where they are paying only 2-3k a month in rent or with family. So basically they can save quite a bit if they don't have kids or let their extended family pilfer their entire savings.

Post: #156

ECL, rational & well thought out as usual.

Post: #157

(06-14-2015 01:04 AM)starchild5 Wrote:  You can stop this all in one stroke by not encouraging Open Source Movement. I have proposed this idea earlier for a SMART OPEN SOURCE system where by corporations who use my code will have to pay Royalties.

Open Source Movement is the biggest Con created by the corporations to get free code with no workers under their payroll. They are basically lifting codes created by nerds in America and making millions out of it by hiring Indians...Who do nothing to contribute to create codes etc..

Everything starts with a program.

NodeJS, JQuery, JavaScript, Linux, PHP etc were created by individuals who had no intention to screw humanity, now, these same programs are used by corporations while giving nothing back to the open source community while making trillions and screwing Americans themselves.

I'm sorry, America is the biggest Ignorant culprit in all of these. Americans should stop giving away codes for free to these parasites who give nothing back to the community.

Look at the Irony. Americans create programs, give it away for free, Indians learn it all and then work for American corporations who make millions out of a free program created by Americans themselves who now can't find any job This is nuts

The fault lies in America and the power too..Stop Supporting Open Source Movement ..Its a con....that gives away code for free to corporations. They make you feel guilty by not sharing your codes while making millions out of it.

Good luck with that. I hope you don't end up in a situation where YOU have to pay Royalties to big companies. Remember amazon's 1-click patent? The whole patent system might have had good intentions in the past but in the end you end up with huge corporations holding 1000's of patents. Meanwhile smaller businesses are having a hard time getting into the club.

Post: #158

We've successfully created a low trust society. That is basically it.

Post: #159

(06-13-2015 07:13 AM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  It’s not that I don’t feel American, I certainly do, I just don’t identify as much with my nationality as I do with my social class.

This is it.

This is the solipsism, right here.

It's the same with the elites we rail on on this forum every day. They don't give a fuck about anyone but themselves, because they identify with nothing else.

I could go on from there but Tuthmosis already said everything I would've said anyway.

Quote:As it is, H1B is an unfair program for both the H1B workers and their native-born competition. I support eliminating it completely and allowing companies to hire anyone they want.

Yeah, and when everyone else inevitably lives in low-trust multicultural shitholes, no one should care, right?

Quote:The era of nationalism is coming to an end. Nationalism arose because technological advances made it possible and it did provide many benefits to the societies that adopted it. Right now, only a segment of the population benefits from post-nationalism but I suspect that will change as international travel becomes so cheap that even the working class can afford to do a lot of it.

This is utterly delusional. Nationalist movements are gaining ground quickly, the Eurozone is probably not going to last, and international travel is only going to get more expensive at this rate unless there is a significant technological breakthrough.

(06-13-2015 09:52 PM)HighSpeed_LowDrag Wrote:  Pikety's main contribution to the literature on economic inequality (which has been considered revolutionary) is the idea that there exists a "central contradiction" to capitalism: that inequality in wealth will increase when the real rate of return on capital exceeds the rate of economic growth. Looking at economic data from the United States and Europe going back at least to the 1700s, one can see that the creation of a 'middle class' is not a inherent feature of capitalism, but is instead an anomalous condition that is only caused through state intervention (in the form of higher regulation and progressive taxation.)

Compare the two charts below (taken from the New Yorker):





The period of decreasing wealth inequality corresponds with the historically anomalous position where r<g. Ergo, the lowering of marginal tax rates seen in the post-1970s, spurred on by the rise of supply-side economics, as well as the twin dynamic of a decline in the cost of labour (through globalization) as well as an increase in the productivity of capital (through technological gain) is what is driving the decimation of the 1950-1970's middle class.

While this is an interesting thesis, I'm not sure the sample size is large enough to justify it. Granted, there probably isn't exactly a huge sample size to start with.

Post: #160

(06-14-2015 01:11 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(06-14-2015 12:10 AM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

(06-13-2015 08:08 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  I have nothing but contempt for cheap Indian IT workers especially the ones used to manage helpdesks.

The level of idiocy is astounding. Beyond stupid level mistakes and being unable to think outside of the box there's also an annoying language barrier. God forbid you didn't explicitly state something.

When i'm king of my company, the first thing i'm doing is closing down all of them. I can name a ton of Americans who can not only do the job better but do it for roughly the same cost as those nitwits.

There's already been a very large shift of call desk jobs to Manila from India. Indians had a few years run where many corporations were trying them out but they failed in almost all metrics. The biggest barrier is the accent and lack of cultural connection.

They just couldn't banter with Americans like some sweet pinays can either. Indians tend to have off putting personalities so when they are on the phone and you have problems then all those issues become magnified.

The call center pinay I banged had a completely American accent. You could swear she grew up in the states. There's also something deeply touching about going to the Philippines as an American and banging the call center help that services U.S. customers.

"Just doin my patriotic duty ma'am."

http://www.thephilippinepride.com/why-wo...r-suicide/

It is such an awful job. I had a few call center jobs in my late teens and early 20s part-time while I was in school. It is the worst shit ever. If one person had the flu, the whole damn floor would be sick within a few days. The most thankless job ever. Anyone that lives in a poor country has to do this to survive, my heart goes out to them, for real.

Again this happened because the Philippines were most cost effective than the Indians. Outsourcing to the Indian subcontinent has had a trend of moving to cheaper regions like eastern Europe and parts of South East Asia, and (this is a little dated cas I stopped working a year and half ago, but) they were actually planning of moving to politically stable segments of Africa where an acceptable demographic that spoke English could work for less.

Post: #161

The big companies incorporated in America really view themselves as transnational, not American. Why should they hire people from their home country with priority, and what is in fact their home country? If you look at the breakout of the revenue, it comes from 100+ countries, and America may soon not even be #1 among them.
If you are selling product to people everywhere and making money from them, why should you not hire them, too? You guys say "who's gonna buy all their product when American don't have jobs anymore" - well, other people the world over who do have jobs will still buy that product and the corporation will still make money.
The world is global, like it or not. There are pros and cons to that, and you can't just get one without the other.

Post: #162

(06-14-2015 11:52 PM)K-man Wrote:  The big companies incorporated in America really view themselves as transnational, not American. Why should they hire people from their home country with priority, and what is in fact their home country?

This goes back to the original point, a lot of these companies wouldn't be around if it weren't for U.S. govt subsidies, land grants, and various other tax breaks that only happened because they were founded in the U.S. Why should these companies benefit off the protections and taxpayer money of the U.S. then immediately move abroad and shift mechanisms of job growth and wealth over to another country.

edit: Before someone mentions it, yes i'm aware there are a minority of companies out there who didn't take one single subsidized cent but they still benefit from the legal protection and various ancillary tax benefits.

What if Krupp steel left Germany before WW1 started and helped the Brits instead because of the global economy excuse.

The whole multinational "global village" holding hands world economy argument is rubbish. All nations have a system where they prop up local industry. Even the country with the most liberal economic policies still uses protectionism and subsidies. Similarily domestic labor is the well spring and life blood of a nation. If you ignore this class of people and let it deteriorate you're jeopardizing your own country's prosperity. Part of that prosperity comes from having intact industries and jobs available.

It's just a fact of life.

Post: #163

(06-14-2015 06:37 PM)Sharkie Wrote:  

(06-14-2015 01:11 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(06-14-2015 12:10 AM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

(06-13-2015 08:08 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  I have nothing but contempt for cheap Indian IT workers especially the ones used to manage helpdesks.

The level of idiocy is astounding. Beyond stupid level mistakes and being unable to think outside of the box there's also an annoying language barrier. God forbid you didn't explicitly state something.

When i'm king of my company, the first thing i'm doing is closing down all of them. I can name a ton of Americans who can not only do the job better but do it for roughly the same cost as those nitwits.

There's already been a very large shift of call desk jobs to Manila from India. Indians had a few years run where many corporations were trying them out but they failed in almost all metrics. The biggest barrier is the accent and lack of cultural connection.

They just couldn't banter with Americans like some sweet pinays can either. Indians tend to have off putting personalities so when they are on the phone and you have problems then all those issues become magnified.

The call center pinay I banged had a completely American accent. You could swear she grew up in the states. There's also something deeply touching about going to the Philippines as an American and banging the call center help that services U.S. customers.

"Just doin my patriotic duty ma'am."

http://www.thephilippinepride.com/why-wo...r-suicide/

It is such an awful job. I had a few call center jobs in my late teens and early 20s part-time while I was in school. It is the worst shit ever. If one person had the flu, the whole damn floor would be sick within a few days. The most thankless job ever. Anyone that lives in a poor country has to do this to survive, my heart goes out to them, for real.

Again this happened because the Philippines were most cost effective than the Indians. Outsourcing to the Indian subcontinent has had a trend of moving to cheaper regions like eastern Europe and parts of South East Asia, and (this is a little dated cas I stopped working a year and half ago, but) they were actually planning of moving to politically stable segments of Africa where an acceptable demographic that spoke English could work for less.

Looking forward to being helped by a Nigerian on the other line when I have banking problems:

Post: #164

(06-14-2015 11:52 PM)K-man Wrote:  If you are selling product to people everywhere and making money from them, why should you not hire them, too? You guys say "who's gonna buy all their product when American don't have jobs anymore" - well, other people the world over who do have jobs will still buy that product and the corporation will still make money.

You honestly think that the workers making slave wages in these countries we're talking about can buy these products?

No, they can't. They employ people for cents then ship the product over the 12,000 mile supply chain back to the first world and convince the dilapidated populace of the US and other countries to buy the shit (that they probably don't need) for far more than they produced it for. What happens when no one in those markets can afford anything because there's not enough money to be had?

Imagine what happens here when the interest rates finally rise. Nothing good.

Post: #165

Interest rates aren't going to rise, it's absolutely impossible. It would immediately make national debts (US, Japan etc) untenable and bankrupt the governments. They aren't going to accept that as a solution whilst they have a central bank. As Greenspan says, buy gold.

Post: #166

You are implicitly assuming that interest rates are wholly controllable by central banks.

Post: #167

(06-15-2015 10:05 AM)Peregrine Wrote:  You are implicitly assuming that interest rates are wholly controllable by central banks.

Not wholly but partially like a faucet you can turn a certain amount of times to weaken the pressure or make it stronger. You can definitely moderate the inflow/outflow of currency when it's beneficial. If your country's economic policies are delusional or jacked up though like Argentina then no amount of controlling interest rates will help in the intermediate term.

Post: #168

(06-11-2015 08:52 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

The best and most straightforward case against immigration that I have ever seen.

Post: #169

^ Would you be okay with companies outsourcing jobs as long as the people were not physically allowed into the West?

Post: #170

(06-15-2015 07:20 AM)Libertas Wrote:  You honestly think that the workers making slave wages in these countries we're talking about can buy these products?

No, they can't. They employ people for cents then ship the product over the 12,000 mile supply chain back to the first world and convince the dilapidated populace of the US and other countries to buy the shit (that they probably don't need) for far more than they produced it for. What happens when no one in those markets can afford anything because there's not enough money to be had?

I actually work for a large American corporation, although I replaced someone in EMEA, not the US. Doing the same job as that poor devil for about 30-40% of his wage. But definitely not peanuts. While I avoid my own corporation's products, I still have enough disposable income to buy a lot of other stuff, incl. from multinationals. Such as computers, phones, a car, brand-name clothes, etc.
Do I feel sorry for that guy (or girl) whom I replaced? Not really... I'm a citizen of the same world that we all inhabit and that the corporation markets to. They make money from 150+ countries. Why shouldn't people in all these countries get to earn a dime too, or are they allowed just to spend and buy products, but not take part in their making and earn wages?
I try not to get emotional about these things... a corporation is not a person, it cannot have morals or conscience. It operates like it charter says, and it says it exists to make money.

Post: #171

(06-16-2015 12:30 AM)K-man Wrote:  Do I feel sorry for that guy (or girl) whom I replaced?

I don't expect you to. Or blame you. I'm not mad at those who take these jobs.

Quote:Not really... I'm a citizen of the same world that we all inhabit and that the corporation markets to.

No such thing as a "citizen of the world" Maybe I'll change my mind when we do away with passports.

Quote:Why shouldn't people in all these countries get to earn a dime too, or are they allowed just to spend and buy products, but not take part in their making and earn wages?

I'm not sure what country you reside in, but what's stopping the denizens from forming their own companies and local markets to provide services and jobs for their own? There isn't this false dichotomy of be employed by a US company or starving to death. After all, somebody had to start these American companies from scratch.

Quote:I try not to get emotional about these things... a corporation is not a person, it cannot have morals or conscience. It operates like it charter says, and it says it exists to make money.

Right. But companies can make money and be socially conscious. These things aren't mutually exclusive. Disney has more than enough money to pay American programmers livable wages. At a certain point, greed for even more profit just goes beyond decency and can have a destabilizing effect on your local work force for all the reasons that have been mentioned in this thread already.

Post: #172

(06-16-2015 12:30 AM)K-man Wrote:  I try not to get emotional about these things... a corporation is not a person, it cannot have morals or conscience. It operates like it charter says, and it says it exists to make money.

Interestingly enough, corporations have been given power far beyond that of actual human beings. Chomsky argues that over the years the Supreme Court has granted corps rights equal to that of an "immortal person" without any constraints , basically. If you think about it, corporations stand in complete opposition to real freedom and democracy.

Post: #173

And another thing I meant to mention in my last response. I think we have a situation similar to how women compete with men for jobs but they don't create any. Americans have to now compete for jobs with people in India and other third world countries, but they aren't creating any jobs for the global market. I don't see India bringing in foreign workers and hiring them for good wages. So I think that's what pisses people off about this business model. They only take jobs away from other countries, but don't create jobs to contribute to the global marketplace.

Post: #174

(06-16-2015 12:57 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  And another thing I meant to mention in my last response. I think we have a situation similar to how women compete with men for jobs but they don't create any. Americans have to now compete for jobs with people in India and other third world countries, but they aren't creating any jobs for the global market. I don't see India bringing in foreign workers and hiring them for good wages. So I think that's what pisses people off about this business model. They only take jobs away from other countries, but don't create jobs to contribute to the global marketplace.

Yep, all this is, is a move by the elites to crush the middle class in the west and ensure their global royalty.

This isn't going to help anyone a few generations down the road, except the elites lineage.

Post: #175

Here's an article that deflates the myth about America's need for immigrants to fill tech positions. The truth is that there are more American STEM graduates than there are positions.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives...ch-talent/

Quote: A 2014 study by the National Science Board found that of 19.5 million holders of degrees in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics, only 5.4 million were working in those fields, and a good question is what they do instead. The Center for Economic Policy and Research, tracing graduates from 2010 through 2014, discovered that 28 percent of engineers and 38 percent of computer sciencetists were either unemployed or holding jobs that did not need their training.2

Teitelbaum stresses a fact of the labor market: contrary to the warnings from a variety of panels and roundtables, public and private employers who might hire STEM workers have not been creating enough positions for all the people currently being trained to fill them. Take physics, a quintessential STEM science. The Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), in its latest Occupational Outlook Handbook, forecasts that by 2022 the economy will have 22,700 nonacademic openings for physicists. Yet during the preceding decade 49,700 people will have graduated with physics degrees. The anomaly is that those urging students toward STEM studies are not pressing employers to ensure that the jobs will be there. And as we shall see, the employers often turn to foreign workers for the jobs they have to fill.

And here's the truth about the H-1B visa that tech companies are lobbying to expand.

Quote:As of the end of 2012, fully 262,569 H-1B visa-holders were working in the United States. By far the most were from India (168,367), with China a distant second (19,850). Indians are most wanted because they come knowing English and can start on assignments the day after they arrive. Topping the list are “computer-related occupations,” such as coding, followed by engineering. Microsoft leads the employers’ list, with Intel, IBM, and Oracle close behind. But a host of enterprises now have software systems in need of servicing. The H-1B roster also includes Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan Chase, and the Rite-Aid pharmacy chain.

A central question, of course, is why Americans weren’t available or applying for these 262,569 jobs. During the 2001–2011 decade, the most recent for which we have figures, our colleges turned out some 2.5 million graduates in computer science and engineering, which seems a fair-sized pool. On its face, it should contain enough people with the qualifications that Microsoft and Oracle and Rite-Aid expect. One explanation is that these and other firms in fact prefer people from abroad. Indeed, many are already in universities here, where they receive half the graduate degrees in computer science and engineering. Of students from India awarded Ph.D.s, 85 percent were still in the US five years after receiving their degrees.

James Bach and Robert Werner’s How to Secure Your H-1B Visa is written for both employers and the workers they hire. They are told that firms must “promise to pay any H-1B employee a competitive salary,” which in theory means what’s being offered “to others with similar experience and qualifications.” At least, this is what the law says. But then there are figures compiled by Zoe Lofgren, who represents much of Silicon Valley in Congress, showing that H-1B workers average 57 percent of the salaries paid to Americans with comparable credentials.

Norman Matloff, a computer scientist at the University of California’s Davis campus, provides some answers. The foreigners granted visas, he found, are typically single or unattached men, usually in their late twenties, who contract for six-year stints, knowing they will work long hours and live in cramped spaces. Being tied to their sponsoring firm, Matloff adds, they “dare not switch to another employer” and are thus “essentially immobile.”6 For their part, Bach and Warner warn, “it may be risky for you to give notice to your current employer.” Indeed, the perils include deportation if you can’t quickly find another guarantor.

Matloff also found that employers “tailor job requirements so that only the desired foreign applicants qualify” and they “have an arsenal of legal means to reject all US workers who apply.” Despite Microsoft’s talk of “best minds,” the majority of H-1B workers are, in Matloff words, “ordinary people doing ordinary work.” On a Government Accountability Office scale, only 17 percent were graded “fully competent” in their specialty. Typically, they produce the lines of code needed to keep so much of our digitized world functioning. Of course, coding can be challenging and creative. But behind each innovative designer, there’s a need for dozens of routine coders whose main job is to get every symbol, letter, and integer precisely right.7

Most businesses prefer having an oversupply of workers, in part to keep those on board fearful lest they be replaced. And if less money goes to the rank-and-file, that often means that more money is available for the executive floors. In Matloff’s view, the dramatic warnings about scarcities of skills are actually “all about an industry wanting to lower wages.” To this extent, he argues, wider income spreads between executives and other employees are integral to corporate visions for the years ahead. But unlike in earlier eras, a STEM proletariat will be digitally literate, thanks to the coding classes Microsoft would make universal (and which are increasingly available from other firms and from high-tech education companies providing classes for recent high school graduates as well as older workers; among them are “boot camps” that charge as much as $12,000 for eight or nine intense weeks). What they’ll do as they reach, say, thirty-five years old is not the concern of an economy based on revolving cubicles, marginal salaries, and importing acquiescent labor. In the summer of 2014, Microsoft laid off 18,000 of its employees.