Post: #26

(06-26-2015 08:34 AM)Blick Mang Wrote:  Oops, should have captioned - recent PEGIDA (Patriotische Europäer gegen die Islamisierung des Abendlandes) rally in Germany after the Charlie Hebdo attacks. It's a movement originating from Dresden but rallies of similar size took place in Munich, Berlin, Hamburg, and Cologne as well.

Demonstrations in Germany offer the most telling clues as to where Europe's center stands - it's ground zero for post-war guilt, with the weakest sense of nationalism. When 40 and 50 year old Germans with Bachelor degrees (the most common profile of PEGIDA demonstrators) take to the streets against another culture, you know the EU's collective conscience is changing.

Why would you think 40-50 year old men are a bellweather for German society?

These are already "old men" becoming more conservative as over their lives they have seen what has been taken from them. They are chided as Nazis in the media, they are terribly uncool, untrendy.

Just because some feeble conservative opposition is allowed to march peacefully, just because the German Flag is not yet banned as hateful, does not mean that anything will reverse.

What actual signs are there of Germany "taking its country back"? I think anyone hoping for the islamization of Europe to stop is honestly just being unrealistic. It isn't stopping, they will continue coming, the West no longer stops these sorts of things.

Post: #27

There has been a lot of drama around Islamic extremists in regards to the West for decades now. I know we need an enemy and all - in the early-mid 20th century it was the Fascists, in the mid-late 20th century it was the Communists, and in the late 20th century-present day its Terrorists/Islamic Extremists.

All conspiracy theories and possible media inflation aside - I'm curious what these small groups' endgame is. They can behead people all they want but essentially they are flies nipping at the ears of a bull. They do not have the manpower, technology, organization, or resources to topple any First World countries.

Post: #28

(06-26-2015 08:39 AM)Veloce Wrote:  

(06-26-2015 08:23 AM)hwuzhere Wrote:  I've said it once and I'll say it again. The destruction of the Ottomon Empire was the greatest geopolitical disaster of the 20th century. Everything in that region has gone in reverse thanks to it.

Kindly explain, or post a link to where you have discussed this. I'm just coming back from two countries in EE that were under Ottoman rule (Bulgaria and Romania), and I think the local population would disagree with your assertion here, to put it lightly.

The only "disaster" I can think of caused by the fall of the Ottomans was paving the way for the expansion of Russia and the ensuing fall of communism.

I've mentioned it once in passing last there was an Islamic thread and no one gave a response so I couldn't elaborate. I can't remember the exact thread title, but I'll type up an argument anyways.

First of all, I wholeheartedly agree Romania and Bulgaria should not have been a part of the Ottomon Empire, and both were free by WWI right before the collapse. Austria-Hungary, Russia, and the complex military alliance that would later cause WWI was one of the factors maintaining the status quo as well as as allowing for the slow but steady reforms in both Russia as well as the Ottomon Empire happening before the war. Expansion into certain countries was nearly impossible without all out war as what would later happen.

Fact of the matter is that autocratic and increasingly secular Ottomon Rulers(whom partook in their own fair share of degeneracy) were autocratic rulers whom prevented minority sects(like the later formed Wahhabis) in check to maintain their power by both promoting a unified Islamic ideal coupled with the forced status quo. It prevented Ottomon expansion and kept the country somewhat prosperous and orderly. All whom spoke up at the time and tried to change the status quo were silenced ala the early stages of Turkey. This is why Turkey is a much more "secular" nation today putting that term loosely.

With the Ottomon Empire gone, the Allied Powers literally divided its remnants into random geographical countries with at times opposing minorities that wanted to kill each other, but previously could not under the Ottomons. This is why dictatorships arose to keep those countries stable eventually. So now that those dictatorships fell apart the impetus for their destruction, Wabbbiest non-secular/traditional Islam, could have its own way. They started following their holy book to the letter today, and so we have the issues today.

Countries like Lebanon, Egypt Turkey, etc at one point or still do have good nightlife scenes with alcohol having questionable legality allowing for its sale. Lebanese people are some of the heaviest drinkers I know. So without forced authoritarian secularism the problems of that region become manifest. As it's harder to do so without a regime such at the Ottomons that had both political legitimacy and precedent as rulers.

Post: #29

(06-26-2015 07:47 AM)Veloce Wrote:  Where is this excerpt taken from? That is some insanity right there.

(06-26-2015 07:50 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  This is the suicide of the West...

(06-26-2015 08:48 AM)vinman Wrote:  This word salad fuckery just gave me a headache.

(06-26-2015 08:02 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  Edit: I'm pretty sure sixsix was parodying. That he fooled people shows how small the margin between the left and full-bore lunacy is.

Post: #30

(06-26-2015 09:01 AM)General Stalin Wrote:  All conspiracy theories and possible media inflation aside - I'm curious what these small groups' endgame is. They can behead people all they want but essentially they are flies nipping at the ears of a bull. They do not have the manpower, technology, organization, or resources to topple any First World countries.

Their end game is global domination, you don't need to wonder about this, they publicly state it. They want Islam to rule the world and to accomplish this by whatever means necessary.

What are you imagining, that in order to topple a First World country you need to come in with stealth bombers and aircraft carriers and officially conquer them via treaty?

You can look at how they are conquering non-muslims in other parts of the world. The middle east has long been home to many ancient religious traditions, and now with the rise of ISIS many of these ancient groups are probably going to be extinct in our lifetimes.

I don't expect that muslims will "conquer" a European country in an official way, with a Sharia constitution put in place, at least not in the next decades, but they will slowly encroach on European societies, there will be continued violence like this, criticism of them will be progressively stamped out, their crimes like Rotherham will be ignored, etc.

After a few decades, if you have a situation where most of Europe goes from 5% muslim to 10%, then 15%, then 20%, with many cities or regions being majority muslim, you will have quite a different dynamic where in a democratic society they can actually wield quite a lot of official power, as well as influence on the culture, media, and schools.

Post: #31

(06-26-2015 09:09 AM)sixsix Wrote:  

(06-26-2015 07:47 AM)Veloce Wrote:  Where is this excerpt taken from? That is some insanity right there.

(06-26-2015 07:50 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  This is the suicide of the West...

(06-26-2015 08:48 AM)vinman Wrote:  This word salad fuckery just gave me a headache.

(06-26-2015 08:02 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  Edit: I'm pretty sure sixsix was parodying. That he fooled people shows how small the margin between the left and full-bore lunacy is.

Solid troll man!

Post: #32

Delete.

Post: #33

Quote:Just because some feeble conservative opposition is allowed to march peacefully, just because the German Flag is not yet banned as hateful, does not mean that anything will reverse.

Their flag was banned, along with connected symbols and even hand gestures. Don't worry, the U.S. will be there within 5-10 years anyway.

I'm aware much of the readership here holds a pessimistic worldview and perhaps even hopes for a collapse in the West, but there's little evidence suggesting our fate is sealed. History is brimming with examples of Europe rising from the ashes in the shittiest of situations, while there are no examples of Europe ever being fully conquered by invading foreigners. I don't think your opinion takes into account:

1. The establishment (government, the wealthy, corporations) benefits from the status quo, not from unrest and change. Protests and demonstrations lead to shifts in political power, and with enough pressure, can lead to revolts, riots, and revolutions. No country or system on earth is invincible, and the establishment will quickly shift gears if threatened.

2. Demographic trends (which most of the doom and gloom seems to be based on) don't take into account the possibility of change. Birth rates will not continue on an infinite trajectory. What happens if EU governments start offering to pay immigrants to return (a very real possibility in the Netherlands), or when home countries are more attractive than Europe?

3. If unrest grows, the wealthy and educated Muslims will return to their home countries. The Jewish population in France is a perfect example of repatriation due to fear. Shaming and violence by natives (e.g. mosque burning) will cause others to leave. Even in less dramatic circumstances, demand to enter Europe will likely decrease.

4. Political parties and nationalist/identitarian groups are sprouting up all over Europe and gaining power. Multiculturalism was abandoned by Holland several years ago, Hungary decided to stop accepting refugees, etc. Small steps, but with very tangible results.

We live in peace and prosperity, it's all we know. We've been taught from birth our system - along with "human rights" and government policies - are permanent and invincible. History proves the opposite. As long as there are Europeans on earth with breath in their lungs, the game is not over.

Post: #34

(06-26-2015 08:04 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:  

(06-26-2015 05:14 AM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  

(06-26-2015 04:58 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:  It's happening.

Will take a while, but eventually people will realize we are all tribal and need to look out for our own.

It won't matter what people will or won't realize. The salient fact is that people in the West no longer have any control whatsoever over the fate of their nations.

You don't have your country activated on your profile, so I have no idea if you are US. However, most of us that do not live on the coasts can take care of ourselves just fine if need be.

And as rapidly as things have changed over just the last few years, I can see it coming to that in my lifetime.

I want to be optimistic, but I don't see it that way at all. What has changed in the last few years? If anything, I'd say the situation has changed for the worse, from both ideological and demographic perspectives.

It is now more "frowned upon" than ever to criticize immigration, multiculturalism, islam, or any other tenet of leftist fascism. We just had a thread here about a mural sponsored by the French government with the caption "French Women for the Africans" for crying out loud, and an action by a Frenchwoman to erase it was greeted with focused hostility by the media. The insanity level is being relentlessly ramped up.

More importantly, more immigrants than ever are hitting European shores. European politicians have proactively expanded the scope of naval operations to patrol waters mere miles from the African shore, in order to ensure that not a single would-be "refugee" slips through the cracks in his effort to illegally make his way to Europe. Their immigration policy has been insane for decades, but the last few months have seen perhaps the first instance in history of naval power being used as a ferry service for illegal immigration.

Let's face it, there has been a very pronounced trend in play since 1945, and it has only ever pointed in one way. There is absolutely zero reason to believe this trend is currently doing anything other than accelerating in its usual direction. If the 211th attack didn't make people "realize," I highly doubt the 212th is going to make any difference, either.

Post: #35

(06-26-2015 09:25 AM)Blick Mang Wrote:  

Quote:Just because some feeble conservative opposition is allowed to march peacefully, just because the German Flag is not yet banned as hateful, does not mean that anything will reverse.

Their flag was banned, along with connected symbols and even hand gestures. Don't worry, the U.S. will be there within 5-10 years anyway.

I'm aware much of the readership here holds a pessimistic worldview and perhaps even hopes for a collapse in the West, but there's little evidence suggesting our fate is sealed. History is brimming with examples of Europe rising from the ashes in the shittiest of situations, while there are no examples of Europe ever being fully conquered by invading foreigners. I don't think your opinion takes into account:

1. The establishment (government, the wealthy, corporations) benefits from the status quo, not from unrest and change. Protests and demonstrations lead to shifts in political power, and with enough pressure, can lead to revolts, riots, and revolutions. No country or system on earth is invincible, and the establishment will quickly shift gears if threatened.

2. Demographic trends (which most of the doom and gloom seems to be based on) don't take into account the possibility of change. Birth rates will not continue on an infinite trajectory. What happens if EU governments start offering to pay immigrants to return (a very real possibility in the Netherlands), or when home countries are more attractive than Europe?

3. If unrest grows, the wealthy and educated Muslims will return to their home countries. The Jewish population in France is a perfect example of repatriation due to fear. Shaming and violence by natives (e.g. mosque burning) will cause others to leave. Even in less dramatic circumstances, demand to enter Europe will likely decrease.

4. Political parties and nationalist/identitarian groups are sprouting up all over Europe and gaining power. Multiculturalism was abandoned by Holland several years ago, Hungary decided to stop accepting refugees, etc. Small steps, but with very tangible results.

We live in peace and prosperity, it's all we know. We've been taught from birth our system - along with "human rights" and government policies - are permanent and invincible. History proves the opposite. As long as there are Europeans on earth with breath in their lungs, the game is not over.

Post: #36

As usual, thread derailed into a race thread. Same old tropes.


A mosque in Kuwait was bombed today.
30 tourists were killed in Tunisia today.
I'm sure something blew up in northern Nigeria killing people too.

This isn't a race or demography issue. It's a jobless, sexless, muslim youth around the globe looking for a way to lash out at perceived injustices against them by embracing violence and a new form masculinity. Sound familiar?

Post: #37

Why is it a race issue? The word 'race' has a specific meaning.

Post: #38

(06-26-2015 08:34 AM)Blick Mang Wrote:  Oops, should have captioned - recent PEGIDA (Patriotische Europäer gegen die Islamisierung des Abendlandes) rally in Germany after the Charlie Hebdo attacks. It's a movement originating from Dresden but rallies of similar size took place in Munich, Berlin, Hamburg, and Cologne as well.

Demonstrations in Germany offer the most telling clues as to where Europe's center stands - it's ground zero for post-war guilt, with the weakest sense of nationalism. When 40 and 50 year old Germans with Bachelor degrees (the most common profile of PEGIDA demonstrators) take to the streets against another culture, you know the EU's collective conscience is changing.

The time PEGIDA is over, it was more a media hype then real. Internal struggles, to much far right wing stuff and no direct solutions. Yes most of the people have higher education and are not racist. They see society drift into a way they don't want. But they get kind of highjacked by far more extreme people and on the other hand they could not point out their frustration into some solid arguments for change.
Counter demonstrations are also bigger with SJW young people that don't care about solid arguments.

And even if they could, the media and political reaction was the typical in germany. Blame them all as nazi. Non voters at elections get bigger and bigger, more and more people feel the disconnection between politics and the people. But politics don't care. If you have an not radical but outside the mainstream point of view you have thug times in Germany.

On the other hand the situation in Germany is not that bad like Sweden, UK, Netherlands or France. We deal a little bit better with those issues even that I feel the tension and wonder how long Germany can keep it up. Either it switch to a clear line or it will get worse. Also with all the refugees. Europe is at a point of change. The world is chaining and many people try to look away.

(06-26-2015 10:30 AM)DjembaDjemba Wrote:  As usual, thread derailed into a race thread. Same old tropes.


A mosque in Kuwait was bombed today.
30 tourists were killed in Tunisia today.
I'm sure something blew up in northern Nigeria killing people too.

This isn't a race or demography issue. It's a jobless, sexless, muslim youth around the globe looking for a way to lash out at perceived injustices against them by embracing violence and a new form masculinity. Sound familiar?

Its called youth bulge.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population...outh_bulge

Quote:The expansive case was described as youth bulge by Gary Fuller (1995). Gunnar Heinsohn (2003) argues that an excess in especially young adult male population predictably leads to social unrest, war and terrorism, as the "third and fourth sons" that find no prestigious positions in their existing societies rationalize their impetus to compete by religion or political ideology.

Its not only Europe, they kill each other every day in the middle east. This leads to mass immigration into Europe.

I absolutely agree that this nonsense ala Islam is peace don't help. Sure not all Muslims are like that but the problem is that the Muslim world is split into many different groups and interpretations of the religion. So its very easy for a fanatic to lead some of the young and most frustrated people into terrorism. And its not only the poor ones. When you look at ISIS its also western born and raised Muslims. They feel the lack of power and higher values in European societies. Thats let them drive into radical views.

So Islam or the Muslim world also need a conclusion how to live the Islam modern. Its a battle of the old, fading world against the new one. And the old one use violence and force because they cant accept the change. Also old Europe cant over deeper value for young people anymore. World change that fast and thats why some people turn into more strict points of view.
In some way you see it also with younger Germans that tend to be more conservative because society and work is so changeable in modern globalization.

Post: #39

delete

Post: #40

People are turning more conservative in certain regions because their old ways are being swept away under the rug of globalization and global interconnectedness.

This isn't really a battle of Christianity vs Islam, or West vs East, or black vs white, it's a battle of modernism brought on by profits, better standards of living, tolerance for the 'different', and universal suffrage on one side. And on the other, the old ways; traditionalism, racism, ethnocentrism, religious centrism and piety.

The population of the middle east is grappling with the same issues that beset in the west around the industrial revolution. Basically liberal values are sweeping away old regimes, and many of the old guard aren't happy about it. They have decided to take up arms against the perceived forces of corruption and degeneracy. Again, it sounds familiar.

Post: #41

(06-26-2015 08:23 AM)hwuzhere Wrote:  I've said it once and I'll say it again. The destruction of the Ottomon Empire was the greatest geopolitical disaster of the 20th century. Everything in that region has gone in reverse thanks to it.

I'm also starting to think as if Islamists want European countries to start loading Muslims into concentration camps so they can declare nonstop holy war.

Interesting point there. There is an amazingly deep context that could deserve a thread in the Deep subform if it could be discussed intelligently.

The Caliphate(s) (like ISIS) precede even the Ottoman Empire, but what always kept them in check were semi-secular/multi-religious governments in those regions. The original "assassin" come from these fanatical murderers.

Interestingly enough, Saddam's Iraq could have been that new Ottoman Empire had they been allowed to "grow as an empire". From my own Historian's point of view and having the luxury to look back at that, one could make compelling argument that his overthrow might be even more disastrous than the fall of the Ottoman Empire. Time will tell, but it's interesting.

You could also look at the non religious Iranian governments too, but they did not have the empire like ambition to control that much territory in the region like Saddam's Iraq did.

Post: #42

(06-26-2015 11:32 AM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

(06-26-2015 08:23 AM)hwuzhere Wrote:  I've said it once and I'll say it again. The destruction of the Ottomon Empire was the greatest geopolitical disaster of the 20th century. Everything in that region has gone in reverse thanks to it.

I'm also starting to think as if Islamists want European countries to start loading Muslims into concentration camps so they can declare nonstop holy war.

Interesting point there. There is an amazingly deep context that could deserve a thread in the Deep subform if it could be discussed intelligently.

The Caliphate(s) (like ISIS) precede even the Ottoman Empire, but what always kept them in check were semi-secular/multi-religious governments in those regions. The original "assassin" come from these fanatical murderers.

Interestingly enough, Saddam's Iraq could have been that new Ottoman Empire had they been allowed to "grow as an empire". From my own Historian's point of view and having the luxury to look back at that, one could make compelling argument that his overthrow might be even more disastrous than the fall of the Ottoman Empire. Time will tell, but it's interesting.

You could also look at the non religious Iranian governments too, but they did not have the empire like ambition to control that much territory in the region like Saddam's Iraq did.

The Ottoman Empire kept an uneasy peace in the whole middle east for 500 years. They had no business governing European countries (Bulgaria, Serbia, Romania, Greece, Macedonia) however. Although I would say EE lucked out for the fact that the Ottomans were small "i" islamist and not overly concerned about wholesale conversion of Europeans to Islam.

There are more parallels between the Ottomans and Iran's style of governance.

A little off topic but how people forget that when Europeans were covered up head to toe and obsessing about sexual purity, the Ottoman Middle East had belly dancing, harems, whore houses, shisha bars, and was sexually more liberal than much of Europe. Then around the 1950s things started to go very wrong across the whole region.

Post: #43

Post: #44

(06-26-2015 11:11 AM)lowhead360 Wrote:  

(06-26-2015 09:08 AM)hwuzhere Wrote:  

(06-26-2015 08:39 AM)Veloce Wrote:  

(06-26-2015 08:23 AM)hwuzhere Wrote:  I've said it once and I'll say it again. The destruction of the Ottomon Empire was the greatest geopolitical disaster of the 20th century. Everything in that region has gone in reverse thanks to it.

Kindly explain, or post a link to where you have discussed this. I'm just coming back from two countries in EE that were under Ottoman rule (Bulgaria and Romania), and I think the local population would disagree with your assertion here, to put it lightly.

The only "disaster" I can think of caused by the fall of the Ottomans was paving the way for the expansion of Russia and the ensuing fall of communism.

I've mentioned it once in passing last there was an Islamic thread and no one gave a response so I couldn't elaborate. I can't remember the exact thread title, but I'll type up an argument anyways.

First of all, I wholeheartedly agree Romania and Bulgaria should not have been a part of the Ottomon Empire, and both were free by WWI right before the collapse. Austria-Hungary, Russia, and the complex military alliance that would later cause WWI was one of the factors maintaining the status quo as well as as allowing for the slow but steady reforms in both Russia as well as the Ottomon Empire happening before the war. Expansion into certain countries was nearly impossible without all out war as what would later happen.

Fact of the matter is that autocratic and increasingly secular Ottomon Rulers(whom partook in their own fair share of degeneracy) were autocratic rulers whom prevented minority sects(like the later formed Wahhabis) in check to maintain their power by both promoting a unified Islamic ideal coupled with the forced status quo. It prevented Ottomon expansion and kept the country somewhat prosperous and orderly. All whom spoke up at the time and tried to change the status quo were silenced ala the early stages of Turkey. This is why Turkey is a much more "secular" nation today putting that term loosely.

With the Ottomon Empire gone, the Allied Powers literally divided its remnants into random geographical countries with at times opposing minorities that wanted to kill each other, but previously could not under the Ottomons. This is why dictatorships arose to keep those countries stable eventually. So now that those dictatorships fell apart the impetus for their destruction, Wabbbiest non-secular/traditional Islam, could have its own way. They started following their holy book to the letter today, and so we have the issues today.

Countries like Lebanon, Egypt Turkey, etc at one point or still do have good nightlife scenes with alcohol having questionable legality allowing for its sale. Lebanese people are some of the heaviest drinkers I know. So without forced authoritarian secularism the problems of that region become manifest. As it's harder to do so without a regime such at the Ottomons that had both political legitimacy and precedent as rulers.

Is this a joke? The rape of SE Europe and Ottoman colonial policies in the Balkans are the main reason that the region is such a turbulent shithole when compared to the rest of Europe.

Population shifting, redrawing the borders, creating new ethnicities out of thin air by converting them to Islam, depopulating Christian territories. The Ottomans were a disaster for the Balkans and the PRIMARY reason that SE Europe never got to experience the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, etc. with the rest of Europe. Serbs, Bulgarians, Greeks, and Romanians had their land stolen from them, occupied, and raped for centuries, they had every right to secede from the dying Ottoman Empire.

As for the Ottomans having some sort of political legitimacy, after they lost in Vienna in 1683, they started a rapid decline. By 1800, the Ottomans were shadow of their former selves and they did NOT have either the means nor the will to enforce any kind of empire.

Did you read my argument on Romania/Bulgaria? I said they had no business in Christian countries and right before WWI they were not in charge of a lot of these population centers. My focus is on Pre-WWI Ottomon Empire(right before the fall) not throughout its history. I would also like to state that the Empire was headed towards Constitutional Monarchy before the war as a lot of of politicians especially those responsible for modern day Turkey were bringing up resistance.

Yes it was going towards rapid decline, but it still had potential for reform and its existence could have resulted in a more peaceful Middle East even if it fell. Possibly from new countries forming around culture groups.

Post: #45

(06-26-2015 11:54 AM)Snowplow Wrote:  

We have enough of your feminist and free market saving...

Post: #46

You can't make it up.

USA
All white men are potential racist gun men so let's ban the flag that some white men identify with and push gun control.

France
Islam is a religion of peace and multiculturalism is a great idea and if you disagree then you are using multicultural rapes and murders for your own racist agenda.

Post: #47

(06-26-2015 12:34 PM)N°6 Wrote:  You can't make it up.

USA
All white men are potential racist gun men so let's ban the flag that some white men identify with and push gun control.

France
Islam is a religion of peace and multiculturalism is a great idea and if you disagree then you are using multicultural rapes and murders for your own racist agenda.

Someone posted this in one of the threads yesterday:

Post: #48

Islam has always been a backwards belief system, promoting death and degeneracy. They've never had any business governing any lands, and anything they've touched has crumbled into ashes.

Egypt under Roman rule? The wealthiest country in the world. Today? The poorest. Syria and Lebanon used to be extremely rich 100 years ago, today with encroaching Islam they are poor and dangerous.

Today Islam returns to tradition by raping and enslaving non-Muslim girls so they can fuel their bloodlust and conquest:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...agery.html

Quote:A group of captured Yazidi and Christian women are chained together and marched to a sickening sex slave market where they are sold to become wives for Islamic State fighters

Islam has always been this way, and the only defense people can come up with is a few Islamic scholars who were eccentric enough to preserve a few Roman books while the great majority of Muslims were only interested in slavery and conquest.

Even the most biased of articles on Islam, such as the one on Wikipedia cannot leave a reader with anything but disgust and horror at this culture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Islam

Islam is promoted today for the same reason homosexuality is promoted: our elites want more degeneracy so they can keep total control. And few things are more degenerate than Islam.

Post: #49

(06-26-2015 12:37 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  Someone posted this in one of the threads yesterday:

^^^This, sorry sweetie but you can't have it both ways, it's all or nothing. Not picking and choosing.

Post: #50

delete